Suggestion: make nobles actually wealthy

[Asanadas]

Nobles should just be coin elementalists. They could stand in the road, casting and defiling commoner's pocketbooks.

[Tetra]

the other 2-3 active templars

Sorry?  What's that?  Couldn't hear you over my metal armor.

[Marauder Moe]

The status quo such as it is results in PC templars that can override and cancel out anything any PC noble attempts to do, because no matter how high or far your PC noble rises, that week old PC templar is still higher on the rung and gets to determine what you can and can't do.

Wut?  Since when?

[Down Under]

The status quo such as it is results in PC templars that can override and cancel out anything any PC noble attempts to do, because no matter how high or far your PC noble rises, that week old PC templar is still higher on the rung and gets to determine what you can and can't do.

Wut?  Since when?

A matter of scale should always be kept in mind.

Dinky Noble who no one likes might be easier for a newbie Templar to cockblock.

That Nobles House? Not so much.

I've seen virtual reactions that definitely keep Templars in check. They are powerful. But not powerful enough to shit on every Noble or even a few of them without reaping consequences that they sowed.

[wizturbo]

Templars in Allanak have definitely been bitch slapped for neglecting their duties to the nobility.  Seen it on more than one occasion.

[Tetra]

I have had mixed experiences with templars.  Some obsessively hover constantly.  Others will barely even give your PC the time of day.

I think OOCly in terms of 'laziness' sitting around in the high-end tavern with your feet over a keg is OK, if you're engaging with PCs/underlings and igniting plots.  A templar who goes around 'doing business' but doesn't interact with underlings, doesn't drive some scenarios, and doesn't get hands on, isn't.

[Aruven]

The status quo such as it is results in PC templars that can override and cancel out anything any PC noble attempts to do, because no matter how high or far your PC noble rises, that week old PC templar is still higher on the rung and gets to determine what you can and can't do.

Wut?  Since when?

Yeah. This was not the case for my Templar. There was little to no way anything political could have happened if I had just gone and tried to stomp out nobility (granted, my immediate face to face encounter was with very, unreasonably long lived nobles) Their actions changed as I started gaining political success, just like it changed adversely as I exposed myself to their ambitions.I like the balance of power, honestly. Without staff favoring a plot line or a particular clan I find zalanthas politics very Athenian, and the PC noble or Templar who wins crowds, can speak eloquently for their cause, or demonstrate some serious martial ability has significant influence. Also, it helps when your rivals do dumb things or die. Sometimes you just get a mix of all of those.

I have rarely relied on money for a noble/Templar role in this game. (I'm pretty new compared to most folks here so eat this with a tasty grain of salt)

[Is Friday]

(I'm pretty new compared to most folks here so eat this with a tasty grain of salt)

Get good noop.

[bcw81]

I have rarely relied on money for a noble/Templar role in this game. (I'm pretty new compared to most folks here so eat this with a tasty grain of salt)

Truth to that. There have been times playing a noble/templar where money really was needed, but they're few and far between. Like, I feel like if I -had- 20k in my account normally, it would be more useful, but when you have 10k on average in your account, you feel like you have to hold onto it in case you need it for something down the line, and then you don't use it.

[Dakota]

I think it's laughable that people think Nobles aren't wealthy. Theirs more to wealth than coin. They have plenty of all sorts of wealth.

If you need more, RP and plot and extort to get it.

[RogueGunslinger]

Why should you have to extort and plot to get money you should already have?

Lets be real here, we're talking about coins, not wealth of friends, business, or assets, or clout.

[Dakota]

Why should you have to extort and plot to get money you should already have?

Lets be real here, we're talking about coins, not wealth of friends, business, or assets, or clout.

Not all Nobles are rich where money just flows and you can buy anything you want... Especially those from non-Merchant Houses.

True Story. I once had dinner with a Prince in his Castle outside of Prague. He gave the friend who was invited and us (we were +1's) a tour of his families art collection. This included a Caravaggio -and- an illustrated book of revelations by Albright Dürer...

Then at after Dinner he asked us all to donate money to his family for the upkeep of all his nice shit so he could keep it... (in effect).

Living wealthy and being wealthy are two different things.

PRACTICALLY speaking as a Noble you have more responsibility to start plots an involve others. Need more to buy "shit"? Use lacky PC's, extort and plot to get it, because you're already getting coins by the large as a stipend.

And you should also extort because... Armageddon.

PS: The above (true) story about the Prince could be good motivation in fact and an RP angle to use IG.

[palomar]

If you need coins for a special project, I would like to think your superiors (through staff) will usually at least consider a request for funds - especially if it's something that will bring glory to the House if successful. If you just need some new fancy jewelry you will probably have to pay for it with your stipend.

[Harmless]

Hello there, independent merchant. How would you like official backing of House Whatever? Great, all you must do is maintain my fortune. If you behave decently I may even act respectfully towards you!

Problem solved.

[wizturbo]

Nobles are not as wealthy as this thread makes it seem like they should be.  Oh sure, they live lavish lifestyles and enjoy privilege above what any commoner could ever hope for in both city-states.  With this lifestyle comes enormous expense.   But where is their source of income?  Some of the Houses (generally the most powerful ones) have some limited amount of independent income, but the lion's share of their revenues comes from the stipends from their respective city-state.  They live on the dole for the most part.  Their political power insures they get a hefty stipend from the city-state to live lavishly on, but many of these Houses aren't independently wealthy.  They don't own the means of production, they control the political climate where that production takes place.  In essence, they're living paycheck to paycheck, but their paychecks are massive.  

Have you ever played the game "The Great Dalmuti"?  Essentially, it's a card game that simulates social castes.  Think of it like Gin, or bridge, or poker...except whoever is in the "Peon" caste must give their best cards to the Great Dalmuti, and the Dalmuti gives their shitty cards to the Peon every round.  Whoever wins the round becomes the Great Dalmuti themselves, whoever loses becomes the Peon.  It's very hard for the Peon to win, because they're at an inherent disadvantage every round, so generally the Dalmuti stays in their place unless they make some serious error in play.  

The noble houses in Zalanthas are like a giant game of the Great Dalmuti.   They rely on politics to get a large stipend, and they spend that stipend to try and maintain or gain an advantage in politics.  There's a reason the lower noble houses have stayed in their place for so long.  There's a reason the top generally stay on the top.  

So where do nobles fit in?  They are supposed to try and grow or maintain their House's respective political power (which is what maintains their stipend).  Nobles are given a certain amount of coin to help them in this effort.  If these nobles spend frivolously, on things that don't advance the House's political status, this could give another House a chance of moving up and their own House moving down a rung.  This movement could very well be permanent.  A junior noble isn't going to be given a huge amount of House resources to play with, because they're untested players of the great game who could fuck things up.  If they prove themselves, they might be able to make a case for making bigger plays, but any House that gives its junior nobles a blank check to spend whatever they want is taking a massive risk of permanently damaging their position in the city-state.

TLDR:  Nobles might have high incomes, but they're heavily dependent on stipends from the city-state.  They're in constant competition with each other for political power in order to get a larger share of those stipends.  If they spend their stipend frivolously, they risk losing their position in the city political structure.  So while noble's are rich, they have incentives to use that coin wisely...i.e...don't give huge sums of coin to junior nobles unless doing so will advance the House position.  


Greater comment on this thread in general:  

The problem isn't the noble's stipends are too low,  it's that independent merchants, in the past at least, haven't had nearly enough expenses to keep them in check.  Taxes, extortion, bribes, unexpected costs...all were vastly under represented in game.  The new indie House system the staff developed should greatly rectify this, with massive tax requirements in order to progress, but the political powers in the game should also take an effort to fleece these independent merchants more...they have virtually no power to stop you.  Templars, Nobles, when you see an independent merchant walking in with silks from head to toe you should start salivating and start thinking up ways to part them of their wealth at earliest opportunity, unless they bend the knee and pay you your due.

[Marauder Moe]

Eh.

I'd actually suspect that the houses DO stockpile wealth in some form, and while a withheld stipend and/or revoked title would be disastrous, they wouldn't become immediately destitute or non-existent (unless they were also immediately murdered).

The noble houses also perform vital services for the city, certainly at least partially in return for said stipends. 

I have to figure that someone at least in the upper governments has some concept of economics and uses the noble houses as a means of circulating wealth through the city.  From a gameplay perspective, this also seems to be an important function.  As such, I'd be very hesitant to decry any spending as "frivolous".

[wizturbo]

I'd be very hesitant to decry any spending as "frivolous".

Any spending is definitely not frivolous.  Buying yourself a set of nice clothing wouldn't be frivolous, for instance...  You need to dress up to your station to properly represent the power behind your name.  

Spending 30,000 a year to have a brand new outfit every month however might be frivolous for a junior noble, where wearing a new outfit wouldn't impress enough important people to justify the expense.  Could the noble house afford it?  Probably.  But the other House that decided to use that coin more wisely could advance past the other as a result.

My post was mainly a response to those that think a noble should be able to spend that 30,000 freely, because an indie merchant might have that bank account.  The main difference is that indie merchant SHOULD be paying tons of taxes, bribes, and extortion money to make it much more challenging to stay wealthy because they don't have any political muscle behind them.  At some point in their career, getting that political backing should be the best financial move to make as an independent, because without that protection the other political powers in the city should be eating them alive.

[Marauder Moe]

I dunno.  While I suspect, especially these days, that nobles are given some sort of direction from above, I think they are generally free to do with their stipend as they wish.  I don't think that's a bad thing ICly or OOCly, even if it does go into a new outfit every month. 

(And actually I don't think monthly outfit change/purchase is really all that unreasonable.)

[aeglaeca]

lmao

Next character concept: bounty hunter repo man shadow artist. You /will/ pay your taxes, damn it. (Suddenly, tax shelters and money laundering organizations spring up in Red Storm.)

On that note, I know the caste system is a Big Deal but I sort of find it odd that the very practical and sometimes RL-used solution of marry the merchant/gold digging never comes up as an option at all. Awarding crappy titles/invitations to society things to make use of money, too. Maybe that's later era thinking, though.

[MeTekillot]

That's because, virtually, nobles Houses aren't supposed to be poor. They may not be game-wise, either, but in comparison to an industrious ranger or indie merchant, they may as well be.

[nauta]

Another thing to note, and maybe I'm wrong here, but some of the suggestions about nobles and money and frivolity and stuff suggest that nobles are "reasonable" and engaged in a kind of utilitarian project, where their actions are guided by "reasons" (gaining power and respect for their house) -

But!

That sounds more like what commoners are like...

I mean, they're like nobles, right?  Some might be utilitarian, but that's sorta the job of their aides - the nobles themselves are so inbred they're probably all idiots and if not idiots at the very least they've been separated from the common problems (like money) for so long...

I should clarify my thoughts.  I mean to say: nobles are dandies: they will buy fifteen large worth of tregil-fur hats because they are total dandies.  I at least view them as akin to the debauched noble classes of late 17th-century France.  Or at least some are.  And I could be wrong.

[MeTekillot]

Some are decadent fops, some are schemers of a Machiavellian caliber.

[Saellyn]

There are some nobles who could teach Machiavelli a thing or two.

[Is Friday]

One idea to resolve wealth issues for noble PCs is that if they "earn it", they may be granted more stipend as a reward. Senior Nobles should be saying: Hey, if you invest smart and represent us well -- we'll give you titles and money.

With the side promotions I think it's already supported.

And yes, if you have plots that seniors would approve of, staff will front you the sid.

[wizturbo]

One idea to resolve wealth issues for noble PCs is that if they "earn it", they may be granted more stipend as a reward. Senior Nobles should be saying: Hey, if you invest smart and represent us well -- we'll give you titles and money.

With the side promotions I think it's already supported.

And yes, if you have plots that seniors would approve of, staff will front you the sid.

+1

I think that's exactly how it should be, if it isn't already.  If a Junior Noble shows they're smart, the House would free up more resources for them, and perhaps even encourage them to get that extra set of silks each month to make it clear to their peers that this person is important.