Leadership Taxicab Confessional

[Riya OniSenshi]

Since it seems people want to derail again, this needs to be quoted again, important parts bolded:

Nauta: This is a thread for players that have played leaders to express their difficulties and share experiences. It's not meant to be a criticism thread for players who haven't walked the walk and aren't familiar with the challenges associated. I think that sort of posting will lead down a path of passive aggressive judgment rather than what I'd like to encourage: thoughtful reflection with lessons learned to help future leaders.

You're welcome to start your own thread, though. I understand you're just trying to contribute.

[boog]

I don't feel like much of the last page was derailing from the topic. Could you please specify? I think mine and HB's discussion was legitimate, especially for those playing leaders on a time limit. I couldn't, when playing a leader, snub legitimate meetings and RP in lieu of sparring unless my character wanted to piss their peers off. Maybe I'm in the minority, but having to log in, having your time (gladly) taken up by being social and plot moving shouldn't mean the coded lack of skill in said leadership role (dependent upon the role, mind you). I didn't mind having my Fale being bad at everything. But having a leader in charge of a military organization, like a Templar or a Sarge, or a dual merchant hunter leader in a merchant house that's BAD means instagank, or instalack of due respect.

The posts before mine seem pretty legit, too. So I guess I'm curious as to what the derail is.

[BadSkeelz]

So I guess I'm curious as to what the derail is.

not enough bitching about minions

[BadSkeelz]

Honestly, I'm still skeptical of this "leaders should get bumps after character generation." A sponsored role leader should come in to the game with all the elevated skills you'd expect of someone in that rank and (virtual) experience. Afterward, responsibility should be yours alone for leveling them up. The best way to go about that is to play in the way you want to play. Blow people off for meetings because you want to go do something that'll raise your skills. You're a leader, fuck them! Do what you want to do. If you want to be a social plotter leaving you without time for coded exercise, well, that's the trade off.

Getting skill bumps just because you've stuck around seems indulgent.

[wizturbo]

Leaders are often denied some of the benefits that would come with their station.  A Salarri merchant who aspires to be a capable swordsman could hire a master to train them, or utilizing virtual resources of their house to gain that skill.  That employee would be at that merchant's beck and call, but instead, in a "find one IC" situation, you're stuck to coordinating playtime schedules for that to work out.

That isn't to say that when you logoff you should have infinite virtual time to spend pursuing training, but if it were up to me, I'd be okay with a leader picking one skill they're virtually training and give them skill bumps after a reasonable amount of time.  This would cost resources to get, dependent on what skill they're trying to train.  

Example:
Want to learn mirukkim?  A leader can pay for a virtual linguist to train them.  It'll cost 10,000 coins and take two IC years.  It takes 2 years because it's only casual training, as a Salarri has lots of other virtual responsibilities that take up their time.   It goes without saying, the same Salarri couldn't be training anything else virtually at the same time.

If they wanted to learn something more obscure, such as Tatlum, that would have to be done ICly.

That sort of thing.

[wizturbo]

Getting skill bumps just because you've stuck around seems indulgent.

I'd agree with you on the "Just for sticking around" part, but if you're trying to utilize virtual resources that should be at your disposal i think it's a different story.  For instance, a Templar can't just go spar with random people.  But they could purchase a gladiator slave to teach them.  That sort of thing.

[boog]

And I don't think one bump an IG year would be too much.


But I'm okay with my leaders sucking for the most part! I just thought it might be an okay point to consider and I'm appreciative of opposite viewpoints!

[KankWhisperer]

Having played leaders but never having been allowed to play a sponsored leader, I don't really like even more preference being given to sponsored roles.
Having worked your way up the hard way, you're just a little bit nastier.

I mean it seems like everyone is wanting skill bumps for sponsored leaders who are already been shown some favor by being given the role without having to survive 6 months in the game. Now let's make their skills go up because they are too busy socializing. The people who worked their way up? Fuck em? If it was an option to all 'leaders' than maybe.

For that matter why couldn't any character have a skill bump they do on their virtual off time?

[boog]

That's why I was asking about that skill bump thing you used to be able to request.

And again, one bump a RL year in one skill? I had posted above that it would be fairly innocuous, and would still give people that codedly work hard the code advantage. I would never want to take away from that.

But again, I'm the sort that would try to hire someone to do my dirty work for me! At least, when I play and specifically don't train, train, train.

I know. It's an unpopular opinion! :x

And... I've survived plenty in the game. I don't think that statement is fair to make, KW.

[Delirium]

I like being skilled but I hate training, can I just do all my training while I'm not logged in?

Yeah, sorry, I'm not a huge fan. Maybe if it was available in a limited fashion to everyone, not just sponsored roles.

[BadSkeelz]

I mean it seems like everyone is wanting skill bumps for sponsored leaders who are already been shown some favor by being given the role without having to survive 6 months in the game.

The "without having to survive 6 months in game" is exactly the point: that character HAS survived six months in the game. They're only now being animated as a PC. It's jarring and unfair to everyone when your Sergeant is far and away the weakest member of the group. Combat leaders are expected to be able to fight, along with other stuff that relies on the player more than the code. Combat leaders who start with no combat ability have limited options for what they can do with their clan. They're going to have to devote large chunks of time to skilling up their character instead of devising larger things for their clan to actually do that isn't sparring.

That's assuming they don't somehow die during their skill-up period. New leaders are easy to assassinate and they're difficult to respect. They're just runners who have a magic patch that lets them yell at you, but can't pull their weight in fights (no matter how much they may want to). What's to stop my 20 day warrior from just ganking them out in the desert and blaming it on a raptor? Better hope that player is charismatic and interesting to follow around, because otherwise they're just well-dressed meatshields.

Sponsored Leaders in combat clans should come in to the game with skill levels reflecting the fact that that character is an experienced member of the organization. Thinking of them as new people who just poofed in to existence is conflating OOC and IC and failing to acknowledge the characters' previous virtual existence. They don't need to be as strong as a 60 day warrior, but they should be more skilled than your average runner.

I like being skilled but I hate training, can I just do all my training while I'm not logged in?

Yeah, sorry, I'm not a huge fan. Maybe if it was available in a limited fashion to everyone, not just sponsored roles.

CGP, buy your skills bumps up front. Work it in to your background.

[BadSkeelz]

Ideally though, combat clan leaders are raised up through the ranks. Continuity of leadership styles and passing on traditions is one of my favorite things about clans.

[Fujikoma]

The only time my Runner whipped the crap out of a sponsored Sarge in recent history (little over a year) was when my PC was actually three years played, all three years in combat clans.

[boog]

I like being skilled but I hate training, can I just do all my training while I'm not logged in?

Yeah, sorry, I'm not a huge fan. Maybe if it was available in a limited fashion to everyone, not just sponsored roles.

I'd agree to that, actually.

And yeah -- CGP. CPG! WHATEVER! I completely forgot about its existence.

Just ignore me! Noob rolling through.

[KankWhisperer]

I mean it seems like everyone is wanting skill bumps for sponsored leaders who are already been shown some favor by being given the role without having to survive 6 months in the game.

The "without having to survive 6 months in game" is exactly the point: that character HAS survived six months in the game. They're only now being animated as a PC. It's jarring and unfair to everyone when your Sergeant is far and away the weakest member of the group. Combat leaders are expected to be able to fight, along with other stuff that relies on the player more than the code. Combat leaders who start with no combat ability have limited options for what they can do with their clan. They're going to have to devote large chunks of time to skilling up their character instead of devising larger things for their clan to actually do that isn't sparring.

That's assuming they don't somehow die during their skill-up period. New leaders are easy to assassinate and they're difficult to respect. They're just runners who have a magic patch that lets them yell at you, but can't pull their weight in fights (no matter how much they may want to). What's to stop my 20 day warrior from just ganking them out in the desert and blaming it on a raptor? Better hope that player is charismatic and interesting to follow around, because otherwise they're just well-dressed meatshields.

Sponsored Leaders in combat clans should come in to the game with skill levels reflecting the fact that that character is an experienced member of the organization. Thinking of them as new people who just poofed in to existence is conflating OOC and IC and failing to acknowledge the characters' previous virtual existence. They don't need to be as strong as a 60 day warrior, but they should be more skilled than your average runner.

I like being skilled but I hate training, can I just do all my training while I'm not logged in?

Yeah, sorry, I'm not a huge fan. Maybe if it was available in a limited fashion to everyone, not just sponsored roles.

CGP, buy your skills bumps up front. Work it in to your background.

Just because you are the same rank doesn't mean you came up the same way. Even in real life a group of people with the same rank or job title have huge differences in skill and competence. Some came up through hard work and sheer skill, others were just good at politics and talking their way into it.

[boog]

I suppose that the above is my biggest concern with playing sponsored leaders.

That and it's hard to find the right fit in terms of people to play with or against. But it can be fun trying to find said people. The reasons I've stored my sponsored roles have all been ooc related: lack of time, most notably, and how to remain relevant with lackluster play times.

[Is Friday]

Just because you are the same rank doesn't mean you came up the same way. Even in real life a group of people with the same rank or job title have huge differences in skill and competence. Some came up through hard work and sheer skill, others were just good at politics and talking their way into it.

Then what you're basically saying is that no one should be apping for Lyksaen characters at all. I don't agree. You shouldn't be limiting yourself to the "incompetent politik Sarge" if you app in. Your role is to train and lead in mil clans, not make friends because you're too codedly weak to enforce any form of discipline or accurately represent the role.

When you app into a mil role and you want to provide people with the means to accomplish coded goals, you simply can't do that without some form of boost unless you plan to be "afk skilling" for a while. Which is not why you were accepted to perform the leadership role.

With that being said, CGP makes up some of the difference -- but I think it's a drop in the bucket from my own past experiences. Perhaps sponsored mil roles are treated differently nowadays.

edit:
These don't have to be "incredible" boosts. But I've had a Byn Sarge killed with sparring weapons by a Runner who had mercy off. Yes, that happened.

[KankWhisperer]

Just because you are the same rank doesn't mean you came up the same way. Even in real life a group of people with the same rank or job title have huge differences in skill and competence. Some came up through hard work and sheer skill, others were just good at politics and talking their way into it.

Then what you're basically saying is that no one should be apping for Lyksaen characters at all. I don't agree. You shouldn't be limiting yourself to the "incompetent politik Sarge" if you app in. Your role is to train and lead in mil clans, not make friends because you're too codedly weak to enforce any form of discipline or accurately represent the role.

When you app into a mil role and you want to provide people with the means to accomplish coded goals, you simply can't do that without some form of boost unless you plan to be "afk skilling" for a while. Which is not why you were accepted to perform the leadership role.

With that being said, CGP makes up some of the difference -- but I think it's a drop in the bucket from my own past experiences. Perhaps sponsored mil roles are treated differently nowadays.

edit:
These don't have to be "incredible" boosts. But I've had a Byn Sarge killed with sparring weapons by a Runner who had mercy off. Yes, that happened.

They should have considerable boost. It just seems that some are saying that these sponsored role's skills should continue to be boosted for just being around after the initial boost so they don't have to bother training because training is boring. I don't agree with them getting this special treatment on top of their special treatment.

[KankWhisperer]

To be honest I can say that being a leader and having low skills is annoying and when a leader reached 150 days with journeyman or below weapon skills, I actually asked the Staff if my skills were capped or could be boosted because it didn't make sense to me either. I was also tired of sparring/training after so long of no improvement. They said I would have to raise it like everyone else more or less. I'm just terrible at skill raising I guess.  But if my character who actually bothered to go to training for all that time can't get boosts I'd probably get pissy if sponsored roles get it just for being sponsored.

[PriestlySiren]

Well, I actually have something to say about this! My first character was pseudo-leadership in a clan, pseudo meaning it was one step below being an 'actual' leader in the clan. I felt that I had a lot to do with rebuilding that clan, actually. It seemed that once my character was around and present and being her vivacious self, she managed to recruit a lot, and follow the schedule set out, but in a way that tried to encourage others to explore themselves and pursue interests other than the normal in a controlled environment.

The downfall to the role, specifically, was lack of forward momentum once she got to the spot she was in. There were leaders in two ranks above her, who, simply, weren't around much, and yet weren't going to get removed any time soon. It started getting frustrating, because all she wanted was to be considered an actual leader with actual responsibilities, since she was doing all the work anyways.

[BadSkeelz]

For what it's worth, that character got a lot more responsibility and recognition that someone of their rank 'should' have had Had to do with abilities. It is easy to hit those glass ceilings in clans, though. It's why I'm a firm believer in rewards other than promotions. Badges, favors, cool items, that sort of thing. Promoting someone in recognition of their ability sadly isn't always possible or practical.

[RogueGunslinger]

I'm a fan of lateral promotions. Promotions in title and maybe minor status with some obscure RP facet as the focus(Calvary, Records, Strategist, Navigator, Archery,  Physician.. etc) Sometimes clans seem to feel like armies of Aides and Recruits and then level 1 troopers/privates/hunters/crafter's/. Every once in a while you get a Corporal/First Hunter/First Trooper/Merchant But those are very linear progressions.

So, instead of turning that other promising corporal and turning them into yet another Sergeant, maybe make them Chief Physician. Instead of having a Trooper just be a Trooper for 3 years straight, maybe make him First Navigator. That recruit who is already kicking all the Sergeants asses? Turn that annoying mouthy bastard into the new Apprentice Cook to take him down a few notches, nobody looks cool dropping fruit in the dust.

[Down Under]

That already happens, and to some extent, some clans now have that built in (lateral promotions).

[RogueGunslinger]

It does, and I'm a fan of it, it's been a more recent thing(past year or so?), and I'd love to see more of it. And more people able to survive and get into the positions would always be nice. Which is probably part of why I don't see it as often as I'd like.

[Fujikoma]

That recruit who is already kicking all the Sergeants asses? Turn that annoying mouthy bastard into the new Apprentice Cook to take him down a few notches, nobody looks cool dropping fruit in the dust.

I am Apprentice Cook of the T'zai Byn, and you will fuckin' respect me, or I will crap in your goddamn stew!