Leadership Taxicab Confessional

[Cavaticus]

It's not about 'protecting' said player from a boring role. It's about staff being completely incapable of really making the world accurately interact with a player in that station. When we've had PCs at that level in the past, they weren't really played as representative of what that rank actually means. They still did most of the same stuff, just with fancier bling. But in actuality, Red Robes are orders of magnitude more powerful than the most powerful Blue Robe. They do not engage with the same world that player characters do. They don't stride into Red's Retreat without some epic reason. They don't have any particular reason to care about the folks who helped them on their way up. They interact with senior nobles and with other Red Robes. They plot and scheme at levels completely over the heads of other characters. We, as staff, would basically have to create a brand new game for a player in that position and that is, for obvious reasons, not something we want to do. We're happier with those stories remaining in the virtual world.

This is why we're looking into more options for lateral movement. We want players to have the opportunity to grow and become more influential, but we also want you guys to remain in each others' sphere of influence.

[Gimfalisette]

It's about the Templar's aide, that was with them for 10 years when they were only a Blue, and effectively gets a significant increase in status as well by being brought along for the ride.

BTDT. It wasn't all that. The result ended up being that I never saw my boss anymore, because he couldn't go out in public. Playing aide to a Red Robe is an exercise in futility, because they will never need you for anything.

What this game needs is more MCB, not more power concentrated in the hands of one or two PCs.

[Hot_Dancer]

Mostly ignorant on this glass ceiling topic - I've played a few high ranked characters in my RPI days across a couple muds.

I hate when I finally reach the top because my interactions tend to get reduced to commanding underlings around instead of building relationships/enemies/friends/rivals - etc.

The interactions get too one sided, too redundant the higher in rank you go. You may as well be interacting with a wall.

I'm mostly trying to say: I'm all for a glass ceiling.

[Armaddict]

It's about the Templar's aide, that was with them for 10 years when they were only a Blue, and effectively gets a significant increase in status as well by being brought along for the ride.

BTDT. It wasn't all that. The result ended up being that I never saw my boss anymore, because he couldn't go out in public. Playing aide to a Red Robe is an exercise in futility, because they will never need you for anything.

What this game needs is more MCB, not more power concentrated in the hands of one or two PCs.

I would assume you mean a certain red robe that was already sporadic in activity beforehand (which makes your post misleading), or if it's the other I still saw him around pretty often.  Which would mean not so reclusive as you make it sound, again.  Interesting characters in those positions make for plenty of MCB.  There were not a lot of complaints that I recall during times of Heeth or Boopsiefiel or the couple others who I left out because they were played by a staff member..  I recall being in at least one plot to depose one of those from their position so another could take their place...which seems pretty MCB to me.  I was newer to the game at that time, so I can't say that's infallible, but I wasn't completely oblivious either. 

The assertion seems to be that whenever someone reaches these ranks, they become iron fisted and invincible, which is historically inaccurate, or that they have nothing to do, which is also historically inaccurate (at least in enough cases for me to notice it.  I'm not trying to make broad blanket statements that make this 100% this way or 100% that way).

However, I didn't actually intend to join in on this argument, because it's one I'm not -totally- invested in, either.  As stated, it's kind of a rare thing (rarer as time went on), and I was speaking more specifically in reference to the feeling of the only way to actual, recognized social standing increase being gone.  If this has been solved with said lateral moves and whatnot, that's well and good.  But as stated in my previous threads...saying that this is promoting MCB is actually the inverse of my experience and observation.

I think in-city clan wars need to be a thing.  *emphatic nod*

[wizturbo]

Edit:  Never mind, no point debating this further.

[Desertman]

All I want is to be told when I have hit the glass ceiling. Don't try and come up with IC reasons to not promote my PC unless they are actually performing poorly.

If they are performing poorly IC'ly, please animate an NPC of a higher rank to tell them so and tell them exactly where they have failed.

If you can't do that with a straight face on an IC level, have the courtesy to tell me OOC'ly I have hit the glass ceiling.

One leaves me with a sense of accomplishment as the player. The other leaves me with a bad taste in my mouth.

[Kryos]

Hotdancer, have to disagree with your experience there.  I have played the literally most powerful being in existence in stuff(not rpi, but role play required pseudo rpi ish things) and I never, ever ran out of problems to deal with, people to piss off/on, and enemies to make.  For some, just being the guy/girl puts a target on your back.  And yes, these characters took their position after starting off as rather lowly creatures and managed to topple the towers.

[wizturbo]

We, as staff, would basically have to create a brand new game for a player in that position and that is, for obvious reasons, not something we want to do.

I think staff could invent ways of creating a new environment without having to create an entirely new game.  I'm not saying these roles should embody the stereotypical Red Robe or Senior noble who remains cloistered and mingles among each other only.  They could have an unusual role.  It could also be a temporary role, where plots are established well in advanced that will strip them of their lofty rank in some spectacular fashion.

Random examples of how this could work without being disruptive to the game:

A Red Robe could be placed as commandant of a military installation such as Ten Sarak.  They're completely in command of that outpost, and while they're obscenely powerful back in Allanak, they're detached from that power base by being away from the city.  Because of the conditions, that Red Robe might have to deal with lowly soldiers on a more frequent basis, along with the Blue Robes they command.  Events could easily be planned to make the outpost they're in a hot bed of activity.

A Senior Noble could be given a major project they're supposed to oversee, such as a big construction project or commanding a major asset of the House like being the head of the Tor Academy.  As head of the Academy, they might have to mingle with lesser lords or high ranking members of the Militia.  For a Tuluki example, they could be House Kassigarh's chief financier which acts as the key judge on which independent business owners should be permitted to advance into trade company or lesser merchant house status.  Without their support, no independent business owner has a prayer of getting a Trade Company license.  Naturally, some level of interaction with the lesser nobodies is required for the role, to accept the appropriate bribes and exert appropriate pressure to insure taxes (and bribes) are maximized.

I'm just trying to point out that things could be done to make it work, and work well, if staff were so inclined and willing to put a player in a senior leadership role.

[Down Under]

The only way I could see roles like that working is if they are sponsored roles that are given a time limit.

Yes, you get to play a Red Robe.

No, it isn't forever. It's for a plot-line, a story, and when that story is done, you are stored.

[Riev]

If the lateral movements give a sense of accomplishment and still allow staff to feel better about not having a SUPRA powerful PC running around, so be it. So long as those movements make sense, and ARE a sense of accomplishment.

We shall see.

[Majikal]

I always feel guilty when I spend time on myself as a leader. Obviously you deserve a bit of time to get inside your pc's skin and just sort of do you so to speak, or relax for a moment. Sometimes you do want to idle so you can catch up on your favorite web comic but still throw out some ways. But I feel guilty for every moment I'm not balls deep in a plot and dragging minions around, every single moment. 

[Delirium]

I always feel guilty when I spend time on myself as a leader. Obviously you deserve a bit of time to get inside your pc's skin and just sort of do you so to speak, or relax for a moment. Sometimes you do want to idle so you can catch up on your favorite web comic but still throw out some ways. But I feel guilty for every moment I'm not balls deep in a plot and dragging minions around, every single moment. 

I know how you feel, but don't be. Not letting yourself (or your character) breathe is the fast road to burnout.

[Desertman]

I view being a leader selfishly in regards to the fact that my minions are a direct source of entertainment for me as much as I am a direct source of entertainment for them.

I love logging in when I'm playing a leader to have four people hit my head with issues, questions, or new problems for me to solve. I love it. Bring it on minions. If I login and I spend an hour or two with nobody messing with me or providing me with entertainment....it's time to hire more minions....I don't have enough to manage.

Minions are like a constantly evolving and shifting base of sub-quests.

I'll be your huckleberry.

[Tetra]

I'll be your huckleberry.

Where do I sign up. 

[bcw81]

Guys, please, I know it's flameday Wednesday, but please.

Moderated a few posts.

[Aruven]

Here's my thought on the glass ceiling debate:

I hate glass ceilings, but for very different reasons than most of the posts on the subject.  

This isn't about the PC who got promoted to Red Robe. Sure, it's a big achievement to have managed to claw your way up to Red,  but lets be real here...  Anyone who plays a Templar who managed to distinguish themselves enough to warrant the promotion must have had one wild ride.  They're already happy.

No, this isn't about the one, rare and exceptional PC.  The promotion isn't for them.

It's about Amos the private, who saved that would-be Red Robes life during a battle, and now by this stroke of fate has a fucking Red Robe who owes them one.  

It's about the junior noble who helped this Red Robe ascend to their station, and is now eager to bask in all the influence and favor (or lack of gratitude) that comes with that.  

It's about the Templar's aide, that was with them for 10 years when they were only a Blue, and effectively gets an increase in status as well by being brought along for the ride.

It's about the indie merchant who applies to have their trade company ascend to a Lesser Merchant House, and the Templar they bribed for two decades speaks on their behalf in the Senate, now wearing a Red Robe.  

It's about a bitter rival cowers,  fearing for their life, when the woman they tried to out maneuver for all those years ascends to power.

It's about the feeling normal commoners get when they see this Red Robe stride into Red's Retreat, and the entire room goes silent and falls on their knees, and the feeling the players gets when they know this Red Robe is not a staff animation.  That this character must've done something BIG, and maybe, someday, they could do something big too.

Glass ceilings limit the imagination of the player base far more than they protect us from abuse, or protect their single player from a potentially boring role.  Not only that, they limit the world for all the people who help (or try to hinder) these exceptional people come to power.

Apply for staff, knock your opponents out of power. You've articulated better than any, the frustrations of many. Maybe i'm off, I was never really focused on the one player. I think people were discussing that aspect because plenty of people have had staff say things directly involved with a single PC and storage.

[Down Under]

Every Noble that ever stored, just saw the demon in the mirror, and chose to close their eyes.

[Malken]

Every Noble that ever stored, just saw the demon in the mirror, and chose to close their eyes.

[Incognito]

In the long run - the single-most difficult issue with playing a leadership role - is something I can divide into 3 parts:

a) Getting people to play in your clan.
b) Getting atleast some veteran players to play in your clan.
c) Getting these players to have decently-long-lived PCs.

Most of the clans have been devised to make things easy for clan leaders.

1) Food, shelter and storage is automated and provided.
2) Training grounds and stables are provided.
3) Pay is automated and provided (usually).
4) Gear is provided (past a certain level).
5) Opportunities for RP interaction and training your PC's skills are inherently provided (as long as there are enough clan members playing at the same timings).

All that the leader has to do - past that - is to involve the clan member PCs into his/her plots, or the plots already on-going in that locale. 

If you find yourself getting anxious about not being able to constantly provide "a fun and meaningful time" to all the clan members - you're riding yourself too hard. Yes - you can do that and it'll definitely add more flavor to the group involved, but, it really isn't your "job".

Think of the clan and the role involved - as the basic food - and the leader as the spice that adds to the flavor.

I will add here - that clear communication goes a LONG way in adding to clarity and comfort of play - in clans. As a leader - be sure to let your clan members know what their roles and responsibilities are, and what you expect of them, and how you see yourself rewarding them when they accomplish the jobs they are hired to do. That's 90% of the job done right there. There's nothing more boring and frustrating than joining a clan and not knowing what you're expected to do, and you end up faced with the possibility of doing repetitious RP and training without any direction.

[FantasyWriter]

Re: Glass Ceiling Argument #21 (Limited Peers/Power Imbalance)

The next time the situation comes about where you have multiple long lived leaders in most clans, raise the ceiling across the board.
Suddenly, There is an IC opening for a Red Robe (who can promote 1 lieutenant), a High Faithful (who can promote 1 lieutenant), a Byn Lieutenant Senior Agent or Merchant in each GMH and each appropriate desert tribe can have one full sorcerer, demi-elemental, or mundane chief-like role, etc. (I call dibs on the Sandlord's right hand man).

These roles are expected not to store barring a serious real-life conflict with playtime.
Argument #21 is no longer valid, and now more significant changes can happen based on greed, thirst for power, or just an overwhelming desire to see things burn.
Balance, order, and fairness are good things when it comes to running the game from an OOC business/gaming perspective, but ICly this is a world full of murder, corruption, and betrayal, and I think sometimes the "world" should be ran by people with their own motives and desires rather than the OOC perspective of making sure everyone gets the same amount of attention and plays inside their box.  I would like to see big battles and spectacular displays of power to happen more than once every couple years.  Most of the new players that come through are not going to stick around long enough to see a OMG THAT WAS AWESOME moment.  I started playing in the high-magick/pre-end game plots days and got spoiled and it admittedly jaded me a bit.

I mean who here would not love to have a Red Robe/Faithful marching through town with their entourage ordering all faithful citizens who can ride and wield a blade to meet at the gates at dawn to march against the evil forces of the south/north?  Cannon Fodder FTW.


This scenario is hardly different in terms of balance so long as all roles are filled (at least the Red/High Faithful).
One of the reasons I remember my Kadian being so successful years ago, that I was lucky enough to have a long lived group of employees that eventually filled out the chain of command below me. I had a Junior merchant, First Hunter, Northern second hunter and Southern Second Hunter that were all played by competent players, so I was effectively able to drive clan plots from the back seat and spend most of my time interacting with/against other powers-that-be.  As D-man pointed out that it could be done a few pages back, I was essentially playing a Senior Agent, only without the coded rank.  Of course, there were also still a couple High Faithfuls around at the time leftover from the end-of-days days, and Northern Noble roles were reopened for the first time since the rebuilding of Tuluk, IIRC).  The reason I eventually stored was not because of a lack of interactions across my social rank and above, but an overwhelming amount of in-clan drama (and staff had OOCly told me not to knock off any more trouble making clannies which was my characters go-to for such shenanigans. )

[Tuannon]

People seem to want to cause a small amount of trouble, no matter how loyal they are. Most of it is unintentional.. some isn't.

EDIT - Bunch of stuff from the Prettiness Topic that should be here.. Or at least this is more appropriate / on topic.

I think (and in my experience) you simply cannot play a Sergeant role being nice to people, you reward good work, you punish bad work.

People will not take you seriously unless you enforce a degree of order in the unit.

And some people who are indy rangers in all their roles, won't like that and will try and buck the system.. And then complain when they get punished.

It happened in Borsai (Twice in fact)l, it happened in Tor, it happened in Kadius.. hell I'm sure it'll happen anywhere.. It's just a part of the game at the moment.