Leadership Taxicab Confessional

[RogueGunslinger]

That recruit who is already kicking all the Sergeants asses? Turn that annoying mouthy bastard into the new Apprentice Cook to take him down a few notches, nobody looks cool dropping fruit in the dust.

I am Apprentice Cook of the T'zai Byn, and you will fuckin' respect me, or I will crap in your goddamn stew!

Quit your yammering, worm. Apprentice Cooks only cook for themselves. And you're damn well eating every charred and burnt piece of food your fumbling hands fuck up, otherwise it's coming out of your measly pay on contracts. Keep mouthing off and you'll be promoted to Physician Apprentice, where you'll be wiping Bone's brow as he works and scrubbing up the blood, piss and shit puddles from his next victims.

[Barzalene]

I haven't thought this through. May be stupid. What about adding more  ranks? Nothing is as encouraging as recognition. Promotions are a great way to that.

[RogueGunslinger]

I'm a fan of it.

[Marauder Moe]

I'm a fan of the little pins and ribbons a few clans have for ACHIEVEMENT UNLOCKED.


I'm not really a fan of free skill bumps for "leaders".  I don't think its unrealistic that a leader would have to split his time between his own personal training and leading.  The "virtual training" argument doesn't make much sense to be either because there's also probably just as much virtual leading to be done offline.  The only exception might be for leaders like templars and maybe some nobles, where training isn't really available in-game due to social strata.  Highborn would be trained by other highborn and/or slaves, I imagine.

[Talia]

We have been working toward building in lateral "promotions" (or titles) and other forms of recognition and reward for leaders in many clans. It's not an easy thing to figure out, document, and roll out, so it's slow going. (For context: I put the first of these in place for Borsail and Tor in 2012. It takes time.) We do understand that players want to achieve and be recognized. Most of the noble clans both north and south have this already, as well as the northern templarate. This is the direction we're moving in.

[Down Under]

And it's a good direction, indeed. I can imagine lateral promotions for some clans have to be pulled out of thin air, because they are either a meritocracy (tribes), or simply don't have it written in to their documentation (or have quite the opposite written into their documentation). I know some clans have very few ranks for a reason, so I can imagine that is annoying to re-write and figure out.

Lateral promotions aren't the end all be all, though. I recall from Dark Sun D&D 'Alternative Rewards' which provide an interesting RP reward for an otherwise combat-based leveling system. They included things like 'You can be a gladiator whenever you like, at the arena in Draj!' or 'The Sorcerer King's boon, Templars won't question you every step of the way from now on!' and other silly stuff that wouldn't apply to Armageddon. However, things like granting favor/a favor, if you are a Templar or Noble, or allowing someone access to an area they didn't have access to before, or even approving one of your minion's ideas, can be a huge reward beyond simple rank in a clan.

[Barzalene]

We have been working toward building in lateral "promotions" (or titles) and other forms of recognition and reward for leaders in many clans. It's not an easy thing to figure out, document, and roll out, so it's slow going. (For context: I put the first of these in place for Borsail and Tor in 2012. It takes time.) We do understand that players want to achieve and be recognized. Most of the noble clans both north and south have this already, as well as the northern templarate. This is the direction we're moving in.

Not a criticism, but a suggestion, people feel better about moving up than they do about me ving over.

[BadSkeelz]

It's not always practical to move everyone up, especially in larger clans. If you have a long-lived troop of Bynners who are all generally awesome in their own ways, you still can't make them all Sergeants.

[Malken]

The interesting thing about Armageddon is that we (the players) have this "vision" that a rank like Sergeant is super high and important in the hierarchy of both the city and its army/House. The fact is that Sergeant is not a high rank at all and was pretty common In Ze Real World. I think you start getting into an 'important' role (virtual-wise in the reality of Armageddon) where the player ceiling begins.

I'm not really familiar with the Templar PC roles on Arm but I have a feeling that they are mostly just at the bottom pit of the Templar hierarchy as well.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that no matter how important you think you are, you're still a nobody in the grand scheme of hierarchy.

But of course I understand the need for that sort of ceiling, I mean, a guy that can barely hold his crappy minimum wage irl isn't going to make a great Red Robe or a Commander of His Legions.

It's my personal feeling that they are roles that only a very tiny fraction of the playerbase could ever possibly dream of RP'ing properly.

I don't know where I'm going with this.

[Barzalene]

It's not always practical to move everyone up, especially in larger clans. If you have a long-lived troop of Bynners who are all generally awesome in their own ways, you still can't make them all Sergeants.

I was thinking more of sponsored roles. Templars. Nobles. Things to compete for.

[HavokBlue]

Lateral rewards with things like "You get an extra bodyguard" or "you can hire more people" or "you can get 1 custom item this one time" or "here's a fat stack of free money" or "here's a bigger room for your shit"  or "that Red Robe is now your BFF" would be dope.

[Malken]

Lateral rewards with things like "You get an extra bodyguard" or "you can hire more people" or "you can get 1 custom item this one time" or "here's a fat stack of free money" or "here's a bigger room for your shit"  or "that Red Robe is now your BFF" would be dope.

I think it already sorta works that way with the Junior and Senior model, noble and merchant-wise.

[BadSkeelz]

I was thinking more of sponsored roles. Templars. Nobles. Things to compete for.

I suppose. Templars already have some of that in place, though it might not be obvious to someone outside of the clan. In Allanak for example, a Templar isn't going to get promoted to Red Robe rank no matter how good they are, but they might get a fancier title. Sub-commander to Lieutenant-commander Extraordinaire, or something. They also get copious amounts of recognition swag. And more leeway to fuck up, which is a huge perk.

Nobles have a bit of this as well, but since there's rarely ever more than two nobles per noble house active at a time, room for in-house competition is kind of shallow.

Overall I'm less interested in giving Templars and nobles more ranks and perks than I am in giving clans that employ the largest amounts of players perks. Not because I'm anti-authority or anything, it just makes more sense economically. A City is only going to have around 5 or 6 noble and templar PCs at any one time. A GMH, militia, or Byn troop can easily employ that many PCs on their own. Give nobles all the fancy ranks and promotions and docs you want, less people are still going to see them. Meanwhile the rest of us are wallowing in larger clans with fewer docs and less things to work for. You have to make those clans fun and engaging and rewarding to be in, otherwise that noble with all the rewards in the world isn't going to be able to do shit because no on wants to play in his clan.

[Delirium]

In general I think the documentation (for clans primarily, but also overall) needs to be streamlined and in many cases simplified, not expanded.

There's some documents that basically take 3 pages to explain a few paragraphs worth of a concept.

It's a bit much for players to try and soak in, especially newer players who are trying to get a handle on a specific area of the game.

I like the idea of non-rank swag. I remember when my Kuraci Sergeant way back when got a custom-pull 3-room bow just for her, IIRC after she won them some big battle with minimal lives lost - that was really cool. Used sparingly, it was a way to recognize my character's service without necessarily promoting her further (especially since she was a dirty halfbreed). Things that can generate stories and bragging rights.

[Patuk]

I'm fine with documentation becoming more easily accessible, in the sense of docs that have priority/outline basic things becoming pointed out clearly.

That said, I love reading documentation something fierce. Everytime I play a nonhuman PC I go and read the racial docs on the old website for a better idea of proper RP. One of Arm's strong
er poits is its rich, detailed setting, and I'd hate to see it being simplified under the guise of streamlining simple because it's so harrrrrd.

[Delirium]

There's a difference between making documentation detailed and making documentation overly verbose. Detailed is great, to a point, so long as you're not forcing players into lockstep.

I get the clear impression from some of the more recent documentation updates that it was written as if trying to anticipate every single scenario or loophole.

That's just self-defeating and ends up limiting creativity more than it fosters it.

I'm sure it's hard work to write documentation and I get that, but my honest opinion is that it needs a proofreader who is not afraid to go Strunk & White on that shit.


Self-moderated to remove bitchiness. Ahem.

[Patuk]

lazy corporate assholes looking for loopholes in The System

Well, after seeing some characters mill about..

Regardless, I'm sure there is documentation that needs revamping. I just can't think of any right now, and I'd hate to see information being gone.

[Talia]

Not a criticism, but a suggestion, people feel better about moving up than they do about me ving over.

PCs can be promoted to senior nobility or higher-ranked templar jobs, but that's when they get stored. It's still achievable, and it's still not playable, and that's not going to change for reasons that have been previously explained.

I hear what you're saying about players preferring to move up, but we're not going back to having Red Robes et al be playable roles.

That being said, getting recognized by one's House/organization with an additional title (which some PC nobles and templars have done) is definitely an "I'm better than you are, so there" thing for nobility and the templarate. It does not carry the same weight as making Red Robe, and that's by design.

Lateral rewards with things like "You get an extra bodyguard" or "you can hire more people" or "you can get 1 custom item this one time" or "here's a fat stack of free money" or "here's a bigger room for your shit"  or "that Red Robe is now your BFF" would be dope.

We already do some of this. We will be doing more of it in the future, depending on the clan and the role. This is part of documentation revamps.

I get the clear impression from some of the more recent documentation updates that it was written as if trying to anticipate every single scenario or loophole.

I assume you're referring to recent documentation such as what was produced for player-clan creation.

We're not trying to anticipate loopholes; we're trying to make sure we've thought things through beforehand so that when players have questions or problems, we don't have to internally debate and rework for extended periods of time. Thus, players get answers sooner and can move forward. Not having thought things through leads to response-time problems and delays stuff that players want to do. Thinking things through and being clear with ourselves and with players means that we can move more rapidly and facilitate player actions.

[Barzalene]

Not a criticism, but a suggestion, people feel better about moving up than they do about me ving over.

PCs can be promoted to senior nobility or higher-ranked templar jobs, but that's when they get stored. It's still achievable, and it's still not playable, and that's not going to change for reasons that have been previously explained.

I hear what you're saying about players preferring to move up, but we're not going back to having Red Robes et al be playable roles.

That being said, getting recognized by one's House/organization with an additional title (which some PC nobles and templars have done) is definitely an "I'm better than you are, so there" thing for nobility and the templarate. It does not carry the same weight as making Red Robe, and that's by design.

Lateral rewards with things like "You get an extra bodyguard" or "you can hire more people" or "you can get 1 custom item this one time" or "here's a fat stack of free money" or "here's a bigger room for your shit"  or "that Red Robe is now your BFF" would be dope.

We already do some of this. We will be doing more of it in the future, depending on the clan and the role. This is part of documentation revamps.

I get the clear impression from some of the more recent documentation updates that it was written as if trying to anticipate every single scenario or loophole.

I assume you're referring to recent documentation such as what was produced for player-clan creation.

We're not trying to anticipate loopholes; we're trying to make sure we've thought things through beforehand so that when players have questions or problems, we don't have to internally debate and rework for extended periods of time. Thus, players get answers sooner and can move forward. Not having thought things through leads to response-time problems and delays stuff that players want to do. Thinking things through and being clear with ourselves and with players means that we can move more rapidly and facilitate player actions.

Oh. I hear that. No one is going to play a red robe. But if there were Junior Blue and Senior Blue (for example only) there is a feeling of progress.

[Fujikoma]

I, personally, can dig why people aren't allowed to play ranks past a certain cap, they already get more than enough power to really ruin everyone's day as it is.

[Desertman]

Not a criticism, but a suggestion, people feel better about moving up than they do about me ving over.

PCs can be promoted to senior nobility or higher-ranked templar jobs, but that's when they get stored. It's still achievable, and it's still not playable, and that's not going to change for reasons that have been previously explained.

I hear what you're saying about players preferring to move up, but we're not going back to having Red Robes et al be playable roles.

That being said, getting recognized by one's House/organization with an additional title (which some PC nobles and templars have done) is definitely an "I'm better than you are, so there" thing for nobility and the templarate. It does not carry the same weight as making Red Robe, and that's by design.

Lateral rewards with things like "You get an extra bodyguard" or "you can hire more people" or "you can get 1 custom item this one time" or "here's a fat stack of free money" or "here's a bigger room for your shit"  or "that Red Robe is now your BFF" would be dope.

We already do some of this. We will be doing more of it in the future, depending on the clan and the role. This is part of documentation revamps.

I get the clear impression from some of the more recent documentation updates that it was written as if trying to anticipate every single scenario or loophole.

I assume you're referring to recent documentation such as what was produced for player-clan creation.

We're not trying to anticipate loopholes; we're trying to make sure we've thought things through beforehand so that when players have questions or problems, we don't have to internally debate and rework for extended periods of time. Thus, players get answers sooner and can move forward. Not having thought things through leads to response-time problems and delays stuff that players want to do. Thinking things through and being clear with ourselves and with players means that we can move more rapidly and facilitate player actions.

Oh. I hear that. No one is going to play a red robe. But if there were Junior Blue and Senior Blue (for example only) there is a feeling of progress.

These ranks already exist.

They are called earning and asserting your IC'ly derived clout in game.

You have to become the leader of leaders. This is harder than it sounds. Basically, the idea is that even though you are the same rank as the other leaders in your clan....they all know you are truly in charge. Through your deeds and your clout you have earned their respect/fear and they listen to you.

When you get to that point, you are already a Senior Blue Robe, or a Lieutenant, or whatever other "title" you want. So what if staff hasn't codedly given it to you? Who cares? Every other leader PC follows you and listens to you....you are already playing that role in every way that matters. The rest is just "words".

[Talia]

Oh. I hear that. No one is going to play a red robe. But if there were Junior Blue and Senior Blue (for example only) there is a feeling of progress.

I don't think it's too IC to say that the northern templarate already has something like this, and a revamp of some stuff for the southern templarate is in the works as well. In addition, some noble houses both north and south do have these possibilities, and at least the south will all have these in the future. It just takes time. We know that players want rewards and recognition (of various forms), and to know how to get rewarded and recognized, and that's where we're headed.

[Barzalene]

Oh. I hear that. No one is going to play a red robe. But if there were Junior Blue and Senior Blue (for example only) there is a feeling of progress.

I don't think it's too IC to say that the northern templarate already has something like this, and a revamp of some stuff for the southern templarate is in the works as well. In addition, some noble houses both north and south do have these possibilities, and at least the south will all have these in the future. It just takes time. We know that players want rewards and recognition (of various forms), and to know how to get rewarded and recognized, and that's where we're headed.

Awesome! That's really good.

[BadSkeelz]

I'll take a wicked ass custom mount over a title any day of the week, if I'm wholly honest.

[JackGibbons]

Bear with me for being relatively new to the scene, but I think of one application of Barzelene's suggestion about vertical rather than lateral moves is worth mentioning in the clan I've mostly had experience with: the Byn.
We've kinda-sorta implemented lateral moves that feel like vertical by producing titles like "First Runner", "First Trooper" as sort of the Sarge's #2. One thing that I think would be interesting would be to open to LT to players which would make longer-played PCs feel like they had a future in the Byn besides being that one rank they got after the first year and are pretty much forever until Sarge dies or stores, since Sarge might move up and they could take his stripes, etc.

There are two downsides to this that I can recall being mentioned in previous staff responses that might make this actually not a good idea. The first is that there's little point in being LT when there's only two of you Sergeants [and of course there's a long established staffer LT, but that NPC could always get promoted, eh?]. It would make more sense to have a LT PC over perhaps four sergeants, and there are plenty of ready-made [and vnpc-existent] troops already that could come to life. However the concern here is the clan cap, since if the Byn grows too big, then other clans would be too starved for players. I haven't had the experience of watching how these things play out over the years as an admin, but my impression would have been that the life or death of a unit is very dependent on the hours the SGT PC can throw in [tying this in to the main subject, I swear], which can lead to burn-out, and lots of "See Sarge lately?" questions from newbs, including actual newbs to Arm who tend to get sent to the Byn. I would have thought that an uncapped Byn that had enough players to always have something happening would curb the "no one's here" boredom that can affect retention rates of new players coming in from TMC who get bored trying to find RP before they appreciate the beauty of this world in its own right. I almost had that experience, but was lucky enough to find the helper chat to talk their ears off for tips on what to do. I'd think that you might starve the other clans, but you'd reap the rewards over the next few months with the higher true-newb to dedicated ARM fan conversation rate. ICly those PCs will graduate and be looking for jobs, and OOCly those players will get their PCs killed on contracts since that's the raison d'etre of the Byn and if they had a good time with a popping, active clan, they might enjoy the game enough to branch out into other clan roles. But like I said, I'm fairly new here and it may be that this has been tried and the end result wasn't a big help to newbie turnover rates [aka the 'haven't logged in in weeks' rate] and the cap was still needed.

The second downside is the code. In my experience working with another DikuMUD [and I don't know which code was common and which was inherited], the ranks are hard-coded and while that part is easy to fix, the real headache is on the builders who have to adjust NPCs and programs. I believe I heard this mentioned by staff earlier, so I think it would apply here as well. Let's suppose, just to be concrete, that the Byn rank structure expanded vertically as follows. By being concrete, by the way, I risk derailing this thread into a nitty gritty about one clan, so please take it as more of a illustration: Runner -> First Runner -> Trooper -> First Trooper -> Sergeant -> LT.  Now what would happen is the script that prevents people from under the rank of Trooper from entering certain areas would now permit First Runners to enter, since it's based on the rank's # in the progression, not based on the wording that that position translates to. So the second rank and up, whatever it's called, would have access to that room now. This requires staff time to come and edit the script to make it now the THIRD rank and up, which corresponds to the new Trooper. Similarly the areas for Sergeant and up would have to be edited to use the 5th rank and instead of the 3rd. I haven't played around with 'order'ing NPCs much, but if they have orderable NPCs, on the other Diku-derivative it was based on a simple clan rank comparison. So you'd have the same problem if you had NPCs that were allowed to be ordered around [or could be ordered around by bored people playing with the code] where you might have to tweak their clan ranks to make them correspond to the newly expanded scale, or they'd start obey orders from lower rank folk than intended. So if that is sort of accurate for what kind of work would be involved here, then that would be an investment of staff time that might not be worth it, with so many other things they have on their plate.

One major, major perk that I could see would be being able to give a rank that permits recruitment into the clan to a new rank between Trooper and Sergeant, something which could benefit other clans if they converted as well. The idea being here that when only one PC can induct, the clan lives or dies on their play times, and that causes stress and sometimes guilt, as all mentioned here in this thread. So one way to alleviate this is to allow a #2 man, like "First Trooper", to be able to handle all that is necessary command-wise for recruitment. And they might be given permission to do things like lead patrols without the Sarge, though this doesn't require any coded support, but which would also help the "everything's on me so I have to log in" frustration that I hear in this thread.