Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion

[Twilight]

Technically, RSC is supposed to be where most stuff gets crafted in Tuluk, even GMH goods, if I remember correctly.

It is an area of background vs. implementation disconnect, because the infrastructure (buildings like warehouses/tents, NPCs other than 1 now (used to be more like the wood seller/buyer)) to have PCs craft in the RSC was never really added, nevermind the merchant houses crafting there (unless that was a reference to them buying from other crafters rather than using their own?), the raw goods seller in Freils sells as much or more as the guy in RSC, and so a lot should be happening in RSC, it just doesn't seem like it does in game.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Maybe RSC needs to be readjusted too, then, to become the place it is supposed to be. Friel's wouldn't have to change, but since that's local-only access (I assume it is), the RSC could be enhanced greatly.

[Desertman]

Where do you people live? I want to come to your homes and try persuasion and failing that violence.

Disturbing.

I wish they would move the stables a bit closer to the middle-class tavern.

I always felt that the stables being so close to the Sanc had a lot to do with why it got so highly populated.

You come into town, you look in the tavern, see everyone there, you might as well join them, it is two squares from the stables anyways. Easy.

Would we build the most fancy tavern in town right next to the smelly stables anyways?

Kind of makes more sense to move it.

It's not on the high-level map, but the stables and wagonyard got moved to the Southwest corner of the Red Sun Commons.   The nearest pub to the stables will be the Tooth.

Oh, you so sexy. So so sexy.

[Nyr]

Technically, RSC is supposed to be where most stuff gets crafted in Tuluk, even GMH goods, if I remember correctly.

You're right.

The Red Sun Commons is the largest supplier of raw goods ready for market in the city of Tuluk. A very large percentage of the city's crafted goods (including those by the Great Merchant Houses) are created in this crafter's district, which then transports the raw goods to the market districts of the region. The Commons also supplies a smaller percent of the arts and crafts created in Tuluk, coming in a distant second to the Bardic Circle. The Red Sun Commons is the lifeblood of Freil's Rest and (to a lesser extent) the Tribal Market, but is highly dependent on the Warrens for workers, the Vineyards for water, and areas beyond the Scaien which supply raw materials and food.

It is an area of background vs. implementation disconnect, because the infrastructure (buildings like warehouses/tents, NPCs other than 1 now (used to be more like the wood seller/buyer)) to have PCs craft in the RSC was never really added

However, I don't think it was ever something intended for PCs to do in a specific way.  The area does have all of that and more, virtually; it is mentioned in the descriptions.  Unless you're saying that there should be areas here intended for public crafting (arguably the whole place is for that, but I imagine you might be looking for something like a coded tent or something), I'm not sure what you are looking for exactly.  A place focused on a specific sort of roleplay?  Fair enough, that can be fleshed out in some fashion moreso than indicated by descriptions.

nevermind the merchant houses crafting there (unless that was a reference to them buying from other crafters rather than using their own?),

Largely virtual.  Not everything in a history/descriptive regional helpfile is coded, for what it's worth.

the raw goods seller in Freils sells as much or more as the guy in RSC, and so a lot should be happening in RSC, it just doesn't seem like it does in game.

I suppose it depends on what you are looking to do.  If you have a concept that relies on crafting, I would suggest joining a merchant House.  If you want to avoid merchant houses, I would suggest partnering up with someone to get you raw materials.  If you want to avoid other PCs for that purpose and wish to rely on shops entirely, that seems like a largely single-player gaming experience, but that still can be pursued to some extent (as you have pointed out, there are NPCs that sell raw goods).

Anyway, the RSC is going to get more stuff in it, regardless, because we are moving some coded things that used to be in the Old Quarter.  A warehouse, for instance.  A certain shop way out in the boondocks.  An apartment complex (more than likely).  It's a sprawl of commerce and activity virtually and these changes should make that seem at least a little more apparent in an IC and coded way.

[palomar]

Anyway, the RSC is going to get more stuff in it, regardless, because we are moving some coded things that used to be in the Old Quarter.  A warehouse, for instance.  A certain shop way out in the boondocks.  An apartment complex (more than likely).  It's a sprawl of commerce and activity virtually and these changes should make that seem at least a little more apparent in an IC and coded way.

That's cool. With the area being more commercial and way less residential, I think the apartment complex would fit better off Dusk Road (south east of the Byn compound, east of the Tenneshi barracks) or Road of Merchants than in the actual RSC. Perhaps that'd still technically be the RSC, I dunno.

[Delirium]

A communal crafting area in the RSC might be neat, much like people occasionally hang out at the Freil's Firepit used to hang out at the Freil's Firepit.

[Barsook]

A communal crafting area in the RSC might be neat

[Lizzie]

Back in reply #134 I suggested a communal firepit like the one we had next to the Firestorm, but the only response to that was one person saying they'd rather have it a more private area.

[solera]

Back in reply #134 I suggested a communal firepit like the one we had next to the Firestorm, but the only response to that was one person saying they'd rather have it a more private area.

Sorry Lizzie , I was just musing on the possibilities. I liked it how it was, and was sad when I popped in Tuluk one time and it had gone.
Some people like privacy, some don't.

I'm sure it had logs, but I have no, um logs, from that time to prove it.

[Lizzie]

Could've been logs, and it really doesn't matter what they were. They're gone. The fact that the firepit existed as a communal outdoor gathering spot, a non-bar-area, is what I was trying to emphasize. And I added in the idea that half-giants would be codedly able to sit in it "table-talk style".

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

They were logs.

[Harmless]

The firestorm pub has a lot of history that nobody ever shared with any of my PCs. I therefore agree fully with the staff's changes and have no qualms with it.

This helps make a larger point. If there is history in game that never gets mentioned or shared except within a group of elite old timers or one house or something, does it matter? The answer is no. Not with a population of illiterates. It makes no sense for Tuluk to care about the pub as more than just a Kadian bar. To anybody but Kadians its history is many many generations old. Bars irl rarely last more than a few generations.

History is lost and meant to be so. Moreover Nyr is hinting that all the important stuff will be preserved and that we should trust the staff on this one. I for one fully trust them here.

[Harmless]

It's sort of a hobby for a lot of the jaded oldbies to feel persecuted by staff no matter what is going on. I tend to ignore it, to be honest. If this didn't happen, they'd complain about stagnation and Tuluk being too big, if it does happen, it's scary-bad change and Tuluk is too shrunken.

I can't see anything remotely bad in the coming change. I'd advise you have the new bar sell milk, however, as I think the Firestorm was the only place to get it in Tuluk. 

qft

[slvrmoontiger]

Only history any of my characters know about the Firestorm is the history of how yummy its booze is. I hope that doesn't get lost.

[Suhuy]

Tuluk is in DIRE need of changes, I can't remember the last time the playerbase has been so low in that location and I play Tuluki like.. 89% of the time. I love the place but man, it's been hard to find/keep characters to interact with for a while before they disappear/store suddenly and without notice. So any changes is fine by me, really.

What if, however, it's the nonstop changes that have resulted in a low playerbase? I don't remember the last time Tuluk wasn't changing. And while it could be argued that perpetual change is part of Tuluk's central theme, it's worth considering the possibility that leaving the city be for a while and letting it run as is might be a greater remedy than to keep slicing and dicing it into new and different forms over the years.

[Nyr]

Tuluk is in DIRE need of changes, I can't remember the last time the playerbase has been so low in that location and I play Tuluki like.. 89% of the time. I love the place but man, it's been hard to find/keep characters to interact with for a while before they disappear/store suddenly and without notice. So any changes is fine by me, really.

What if, however, it's the nonstop changes that have resulted in a low playerbase? I don't remember the last time Tuluk wasn't changing. And while it could be argued that perpetual change is part of Tuluk's central theme, it's worth considering the possibility that leaving the city be for a while and letting it run as is might be a greater remedy than to keep slicing and dicing it into new and different forms over the years.

For what it's worth, leaving the city be in the state it was in was an untenable position for staff and an annoying position for the playerbase.  And we've already written about each point you've brought up here.

[Nyr]

Specifically:

What if, however, it's the nonstop changes that have resulted in a low playerbase?

Actually, I don't see where I've mentioned this one here, but people play where they want to play, and there are a lot of reasons for people to choose which places they play or what roles to play when they play there.  The fact that Tuluk has been in a stated period of internal flux absolutely could be a contributing factor.  Rather than handwave a ton of OOC changes and say "this is the way Tuluk is now," we've been rolling out things through planned plots that involve the players that have roles there (and more besides).  I can understand a perspective of not wanting to get involved in something that might cause your concept to be altered, your character to be (gasp) killed, or your character's way of life to be forcibly changed (though I don't really agree with it).

I wouldn't worry about it.  Players play where they want to play.  It'll all be fine eventually, whatever "it" is (not referring solely to this scenario, but any).

And while it could be argued that perpetual change is part of Tuluk's central theme,

It definitely isn't, and I don't think it could be argued that this is anything close to Tuluk's central theme.

it's worth considering the possibility that leaving the city be for a while and letting it run as is might be a greater remedy than to keep slicing and dicing it into new and different forms over the years.

That is the end goal.  To get there we are having to get rid of some things that were unnecessarily complicated, undocumented, or disliked from a staffing perspective. 

[Desertman]

Walking distance between buildings isn't what makes Tuluk the "less populated" area of the game.

It is a matter of the overall theme of Tuluk in general.

I won't get too IC, but there was something in Tuluk that may or may not still exist (I believe it doesn't anymore) that made Tuluk almost impossible in terms of playing a criminal that lived there.

I don't mean the "criminals" that actually work with the private sanctioning of the Templarate. Those aren't criminals. Those are just Templar agents who happen to do criminal-like things.

You almost couldn't exist in Tuluk as a true criminal. You would be found out and disappeared almost instantly and there was no place you could hide, especially after UnderTuluk went away. The vets know what I'm talking about. If you don't, well, maybe the staff will talk about that one day.

So, everyone who wanted to play a true criminal learned quickly to play not-in-Tuluk.

That wipes out one group of people.

You ever play a Legion soldier in Tuluk? How much crime did you actually run around stopping? How many criminals not working for/protected by the Templarate did you actually have to track down through mundane means and deal with?

Even if you found them, what did you do with them? You reported them/escorted them to a Templar to be dealt with "quietly", because taking care of them through open violence was almost unheard of in Tuluk.

So, everyone who wanted to play a true hardcore soldier type that snuffed out illegal criminals and what not...played in Allanak.

There goes another group.

You ever play a T'zai Byn mercenary in Tuluk? Where did you do your brawling? Where did you get nasty and raunchy and gritty in Tuluk? The Sanctuary? Nope. You went to The Tooth, where you might be lucky to find a little bit of interaction, and even if you did want to start a brawl there or be nasty and gruff and horrible in general....you almost always got reported for it, for being "un-Tuluki".

So if you wanted to play a T'zai Byn mercenary, you played in Allanak. (Maybe fixed by the Tuluki rearrangement and tavern guards for the Sanctuary/additions to The Tooth and the new middle-class tavern.)

There goes a third group comprised of a lot of new players who might have otherwise learned to love Tuluk.

You know who played in Tuluk? Merchants, bards, and hunters.

You know who played in Allanak? All of the roles I mentioned above that don't/didn't play in Tuluk, plus merchants and hunters. Not so many "bards".

It seems like basic math to me. When your design naturally limits the number of people who will be interested, less people will be interested.

Just some thoughts from my own personal experiences with Tuluk and the game world in general. I'm open to admitting I could be wrong about some of my ideas/opinions, as they are directly influenced by my personal playing experience and I'm not on staff.

I do think some of the more recent changes are going to get "real" criminals back into Tuluk, plus the "artists" who work for the Templarate. This will attract back the soldiers who want to actually stop crime. Because crime will actually exist again. I think this alone is going to do wonders for making Tuluk more attractive to a lot of people, myself included.

I'm also seeing a "rougher" Tuluk slowly coming into play, and I think that is going to help Tuluk's numbers a lot.

In general, I think the direction Tuluk is currently going is going to fix a lot of the above issues. Let's just give it some time.

[Reiloth]

I think a lot of your postulations are based on past experiences that are vague and grey area. I had a criminal PC in the last year or so in Tuluk and found it most agreeable.

Saying "Templar Sanctioned Crime" isn't crime is just your opinion. If you're allowed to murder people, rob people, and beat people to an inch of their life legitimately...

One could argue that it isn't crime if it isn't against the law, but culturally speaking, I would be afraid of a place that sanctioned murder, thievery, and brutal intimidation tactics. Would you want to travel to that country? Sort of reminds me of Juarez.

I played a long lived Legion Sergeant in Tuluk, and I spent plenty of time chasing around criminals and rogue magickers. Most of the 'criminal element' were Southerners or people not registered with the State, that had to be intimidated into joining the ranks of Artist, or be disappeared.

Taking care of things with open violence, while it does happen in Allanak, is more of the territory of Templars. Most Sergeants and even Lieutenants report, report, report. They can and have used open violence, but i've seen that more as the territory of Templars, in both city-states.

I played a long lived Byn Sergeant as well. Tuluk isn't the grittiest, but you can make it gritty in the Tooth without fear of losing face or being made fun of. People who wore silk and look prim and proper, I still see getting made fun of in the Tooth.

Basically, I think a lot of this is experiential opinion. Some people have experienced what you claim isn't possible in Tuluk -- So I question the validity of the argument stating "It's the overall theme of Tuluk in general".

[Desertman]

Then what do you believe the issue is?

I'm willing to admit those are from my own personal experiences. In my own experiences, I have found it to be completely true.

I appreciate you had different experiences.

Zero sarcasm, I'm truly interested to see what you believe the problem is. If your experiences were so much different from mine, you probably have some pretty good ideas on "other" things I have never even considered.

[Is Friday]

From my own experiences, I generally agree with D-Man on this one. I know that Reiloth obviously isn't a liar, but I think his experience is more the exception than the rule. D-Man's sentiments are probably closer to the common experience in Tuluk.

Tuluk is hard, man.

[Reiloth]

I'm not sure there is an issue. I think it's mostly personal preference.

I think Allanak is the favorite flavor of people who play ArmageddonMUD. It accomplishes much of the setting/roles in society/RP surrounding Zalanthas quite well. Totalitarian rule, Templars who wield magick, Gemmed Magickers who are their slaves, disparaging differences between commoners and Nobles, Arena where bloodsport is encouraged, etc.

Tuluk is the less popular counterpart -- It offers a different spin on the same setting, and because it is a different spin, will not appeal to the same people necessarily who really like what Allanak has to offer. Similarly, the people who like the setting of Tuluk may not be in love with what Allanak has to offer. I certainly wasn't for several years, while playing the game.

Different strokes, for different folks. I think we sometimes strive to find what is 'broken' about an area or aspect of the game because we do not enjoy it, and cannot sometimes realize that perhaps we may never enjoy that area or aspect of the game, despite any changes/fixes/perceived fixes. We will dictate that our experience proves the area is broken -- But all that it proves is our preferences.

[Desertman]

I'm not sure there is an issue.

Tuluk is the less popular counterpart.

Tuluk being the less popular counterpart and thus being less populated is the exact issue we are talking about.

Now, if you don't think that is an issue, we will just have to agree to disagree.

But my entire list of "things" was focused on reasons why "Tuluk is the less popular counterpart".

[Is Friday]

Call me crazy, while I can enjoy most areas of the game for what they are, Tuluk has always been an elusive creature for me. I think that is why I consider it broken. I just can't enjoy it, except in rare circumstances.

[Reiloth]

Why does it need to be as popular? We have a finite amount of players, and we cannot possibly have an even spread among all of the areas of the game.

With that same logic, why is the Tablelands not as popular as Allanak? Or Luir's Outpost?

Each area of the game fills a certain niche, and not all of them are equally populated.