Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion

[palomar]

... I would prefer to see The Sanctuary the domain of only Nobles, Templars, and their guests. Meaning you can't get in unless you are a noble or a Templar or following one.

I would disagree for two reasons.  First, there is an area like that in Allanak.  It is pretty much dead, and therefore isn't fun for even nobles to visit.  Unless they're inviting another noble in, I suppose.  Since the purpose of the consolidation is throwing people together more, this change would seem to go against that purpose.  Second, segregated taverns feels more Allanaki than Tuluki.  It is more common in Tuluk to see Chosen kicking back with the commoners (which does not necessarily mean acting like the commoners, or being friends with the commoners).  While Chosen clearly have better blood, they don't feel the need to rub the commons' noses in it as much as they might in Allanak.  Of course, this is all just my opinion based on my perceptions of playing in Tuluk and reading the docs.

I don't disagree with your points, but, I think having the Sanctuary be the domain of only the truly rich and prestigious would be ideal for the followings reason:

The Sanctuary is written up as an extremely high class and expensive tavern where only the sippiest of the tea sippers would go. Now, the problem is I have frequently seen it become the default tavern of Tuluk.

The place where almost everyone goes and hangs out, because people like interaction, and you can't blame them.

One of the biggest complaints you hear about Tuluk is it is "easy mode" and "soft". Having a tavern that is written as only for the sippiest of the most prissy tea sippers as the default primary gathering place of the city does nothing good for that misconception, and unfortunately lends a small amount of credence to it.

Perhaps it could have a room where all citizens have access, and then Chosen/Faithful-only rooms. That would allow for partisans and other affiliates who aren't codedly clanned to seek out their patrons/employers.

[Barzalene]

Also not in keeping with the flavor of the nobles. They're more accessible than their southern counterparts. Locking them up makes them less accessible.

[Desertman]

I would rather see the middle and low-class taverns become the default gathering places of Tuluk.

Besides, I think Tuluk is being revamped in general to be a bit more "harsh". I don't mind the concept of them being a little less, "We are a big happy family.", and a little more, "Get out of my fancy tavern with your common trash filth."

[Barzalene]

If it's not possible to rethink this Firestorm thing, let me know. Because I'm holding out hope that it's not to late to fix this. Because really, you guys read the docs right? Yeah. Please reconsider?

[Reiloth]

... I would prefer to see The Sanctuary the domain of only Nobles, Templars, and their guests. Meaning you can't get in unless you are a noble or a Templar or following one.

I would disagree for two reasons.  First, there is an area like that in Allanak.  It is pretty much dead, and therefore isn't fun for even nobles to visit.  Unless they're inviting another noble in, I suppose.  Since the purpose of the consolidation is throwing people together more, this change would seem to go against that purpose.  Second, segregated taverns feels more Allanaki than Tuluki.  It is more common in Tuluk to see Chosen kicking back with the commoners (which does not necessarily mean acting like the commoners, or being friends with the commoners).  While Chosen clearly have better blood, they don't feel the need to rub the commons' noses in it as much as they might in Allanak.  Of course, this is all just my opinion based on my perceptions of playing in Tuluk and reading the docs.

I don't disagree with your points, but, I think having the Sanctuary be the domain of only the truly rich and prestigious would be ideal for the followings reason:

The Sanctuary is written up as an extremely high class and expensive tavern where only the sippiest of the tea sippers would go. Now, the problem is I have frequently seen it become the default tavern of Tuluk.

The place where almost everyone goes and hangs out, because people like interaction, and you can't blame them.

One of the biggest complaints you hear about Tuluk is it is "easy mode" and "soft". Having a tavern that is written as only for the sippiest of the most prissy tea sippers as the default primary gathering place of the city does nothing good for that misconception, and unfortunately lends a small amount of credence to it.

I would rather see the middle and low-class taverns become the default gathering places of Tuluk.

Besides, I think Tuluk is being revamped in general to be a bit more "harsh", I don't mind the concept of them being a little less, "We are a big happy family.", and a little more, "Get out of fancy tavern with your common trash filth."

There also needs to be a place for people who want to be employed by the Nobility and Templarate to meet them, or wait to meet them.

[Desertman]

... I would prefer to see The Sanctuary the domain of only Nobles, Templars, and their guests. Meaning you can't get in unless you are a noble or a Templar or following one.

I would disagree for two reasons.  First, there is an area like that in Allanak.  It is pretty much dead, and therefore isn't fun for even nobles to visit.  Unless they're inviting another noble in, I suppose.  Since the purpose of the consolidation is throwing people together more, this change would seem to go against that purpose.  Second, segregated taverns feels more Allanaki than Tuluki.  It is more common in Tuluk to see Chosen kicking back with the commoners (which does not necessarily mean acting like the commoners, or being friends with the commoners).  While Chosen clearly have better blood, they don't feel the need to rub the commons' noses in it as much as they might in Allanak.  Of course, this is all just my opinion based on my perceptions of playing in Tuluk and reading the docs.

I don't disagree with your points, but, I think having the Sanctuary be the domain of only the truly rich and prestigious would be ideal for the followings reason:

The Sanctuary is written up as an extremely high class and expensive tavern where only the sippiest of the tea sippers would go. Now, the problem is I have frequently seen it become the default tavern of Tuluk.

The place where almost everyone goes and hangs out, because people like interaction, and you can't blame them.

One of the biggest complaints you hear about Tuluk is it is "easy mode" and "soft". Having a tavern that is written as only for the sippiest of the most prissy tea sippers as the default primary gathering place of the city does nothing good for that misconception, and unfortunately lends a small amount of credence to it.

I would rather see the middle and low-class taverns become the default gathering places of Tuluk.

Besides, I think Tuluk is being revamped in general to be a bit more "harsh", I don't mind the concept of them being a little less, "We are a big happy family.", and a little more, "Get out of fancy tavern with your common trash filth."

There also needs to be a place for people who want to be employed by the Nobility and Templarate to meet them, or wait to meet them.

That can be the middle-class tavern.

The idea is if the nobility and the templarate WANT to be around the common filth they have that option, but they aren't FORCED to be around that common filth if they want to go to a tavern.

The real gain is just ensuring the high class and exclusive Sanctuary doesn't just default to the most frequented tavern again, because really, almost every commoner in that place shouldn't be in there.

[Cutthroat]

One of the biggest complaints you hear about Tuluk is it is "easy mode" and "soft". Having a tavern that is written as only for the sippiest of the most prissy tea sippers as the default primary gathering place of the city does nothing good for that misconception, and unfortunately lends a small amount of credence to it.

How does having one upper-class tavern in Tuluk make Tuluk seem soft, while having one upper-class tavern in Allanak doesn't?
(Especially given that there will be increased prominence for the low- and mid-class taverns.)

[Desertman]

One of the biggest complaints you hear about Tuluk is it is "easy mode" and "soft". Having a tavern that is written as only for the sippiest of the most prissy tea sippers as the default primary gathering place of the city does nothing good for that misconception, and unfortunately lends a small amount of credence to it.

How does having one upper-class tavern in Tuluk make Tuluk seem soft, while having one upper-class tavern in Allanak doesn't?
(Especially given that there will be increased prominence for the low- and mid-class taverns.)

Because MOST commoners frequent the low-class tavern in Allanak. MOST commoners in Allanak roleplay being the sorts of people who would frequent such a low-class place. They get plenty of interaction and aren't expected to roleplay being anything but a commoner to do it.

I usually see MOST commoners frequent the extremely high-class tavern in Tuluk.

Most of them roleplay accordingly to visit the high class tavern, so in turn, you have a bunch of people spending a lot of their time in a place that forces them to act extremely high class and proper, thus you end up with a predominantly "higher-class" roleplay base for the city.

If you want to interact with people you go to the most populated areas. The most populated area happens to be the most expensive and fancy place in town. You are expected to act a certain way while there.

Thus, if you want to interact with people in Tuluk you better be ready to act the way most of them act while hanging out in the most highly populated place in the city.

Sippiest of the tea sippers unite, basically.

[valeria]

I don't disagree with your points, but, I think having the Sanctuary be the domain of only the truly rich and prestigious would be ideal for the followings reason:

The Sanctuary is written up as an extremely high class and expensive tavern where only the sippiest of the tea sippers would go. Now, the problem is I have frequently seen it become the default tavern of Tuluk.

The place where almost everyone goes and hangs out, because people like interaction, and you can't blame them.

One of the biggest complaints you hear about Tuluk is it is "easy mode" and "soft". Having a tavern that is written as only for the sippiest of the most prissy tea sippers as the default primary gathering place of the city does nothing good for that misconception, and unfortunately lends a small amount of credence to it.

I don't think that your idea or points entirely lack merit.  I agree that some people go into the Sanctuary who maybe don't belong in there.  And the echo about the waitress cleaning up blood drives me absolutely insane, because it doesn't mesh with the environment when you read the room description, but that's probably for a different topic.

However, I do disagree with the underlined statement.  While I think that the this point may have been true in the past, I don't think that it's currently entirely accurate.  The Sanctuary currently has limited access (since other recent changes to Tuluk).  It may not be limited to only Chosen and Templars, but access is limited.  And it seemed in my semi-recent experience playing there that people have branched more into the other taverns because of the limited access, so that they can interact with people who are currently not allowed into the Sanctuary.  This has driven people who wouldn't fit in at the Sanctuary out into other taverns as well, since they're more likely to find interaction outside of it.

But again, I'm only going on anecdote here.  My perspective might be skewed just because it's limited to only my experience.  Edit to add: anyone playing there now might have a more updated perspective, but I have had a couple characters in Tuluk since the changes, and noticed a difference.

[Desertman]

You may be completely right.

I haven't played in Tuluk in a few RL months, so the most recent change may have been more than enough.

Some folks in Tuluk would need to chime in.

I was just going off of past data.

[Reiloth]

I agree. I wonder how accurate / up to date Desertman's opinions are, because i've actually seen the Tooth and Firestorm be the more popular 'water holes' in Tuluk.

People usually aren't hanging out in the Sanctuary for no reason, or for very long, while I see people as barflies more at the Tooth and Firestorm.

[Desertman]

I agree. I wonder how accurate / up to date Desertman's opinions are, because i've actually seen the Tooth and Firestorm be the more popular 'water holes' in Tuluk.

People usually aren't hanging out in the Sanctuary for no reason, or for very long, while I see people as barflies more at the Tooth and Firestorm.

Fair enough, I just know for the last 10 RL years before the most recent change, when you went to Tuluk you looked in the Sanc to see who all was around, and you sometimes strolled past The Tooth of Firestorms to see if anyone happened to even be in there at all.

The most recent change may have "fixed" that.

[Kismetic]

Valeria is correct, the cutting off of the Sanctuary to outsiders has led to a lot more crowds in the other bars, heavily favoring the bar that was kept.  I expect the middle class bar to become the new most popular, and I don't see a single good reason to change the Sanctuary from what it is now.  It appears it won't even be the most accessible from the main gate, which was my only past concern about it.

[LauraMars]

Awesome, my next PC is playing in Tuluk for sure.  TULUKI PICKPOCKET.  I WANT IT.  COME PK ME NOW, GAME.

The only thing that confuses me is the decision to get rid of the Firestorm and replace it with a "middle class tavern with a stage" Doesn't the Firestorm fit the "middle class tavern with a stage (outside)" bill already?  Why go to the trouble of writing a whole new one?  Why not just move the Firestorm?

[valeria]

Also, I'd note that the change that made it so that the Sanctuary is not the default spawning tavern has probably contributed a lot to this.  When I was a newbie, I was really hesitant to move away from the Gaj because I wasn't sure how to get back.  This also may have been true of the Sanctuary in the past.

One of the things that makes this consolidation change really welcome to me, is because it was very tedious to search for interaction in Tuluk before because of the walking distances.  With the taverns nearer (about the same distance of the Gaj and Red's), it will be a LOT easier to find interaction if you want to find it.  Just the thought of walking to the Ghaati from the Tooth on the 'old' map was intimidating.

[Blur]

As someone who has often played in Tuluk I do like this change a lot.

I just have one suggestion though. Please remove all the NPC soldiers from the warrens. They would have needed to take the soldiers from somewhere with the war, and units wandering outside the walls . Really though I would like to see the warrens be devoid of npc solider presence to re-enforce the idea its more of a bad area. Not as bad as the rinth since the crime-code would stay the same in the day (of course being wanted shouldn't mean an entire unit suddenly comes down on your head any time soon in that particular area) but at night it should clearly be a more dangerous place to wander. Not to mention it would give unlicensed criminal elements just a bit more space to thrive in .

[Desertman]

I wish they would move the stables a bit closer to the middle-class tavern.

I always felt that the stables being so close to the Sanc had a lot to do with why it got so highly populated.

You come into town, you look in the tavern, see everyone there, you might as well join them, it is two squares from the stables anyways. Easy.

Would we build the most fancy tavern in town right next to the smelly stables anyways?

Kind of makes more sense to move it.

[Nyr]

The Firestorm reaction was part of the reason we put up a post more than a week in advance of the mapping and the tavern change.  That way if you are really annoyed by something that isn't clearly defined you can go ahead and get it out of your system.

One additional point to note is that not all of Tuluk is pictured in the map provided.  For instance, you don't see any of the Barrens or all of that stuff on the east side.

[Kismetic]

I just have one suggestion though. Please remove all the NPC soldiers from the warrens. They would have needed to take the soldiers from somewhere with the war, and units wandering outside the walls . Really though I would like to see the warrens be devoid of npc solider presence to re-enforce the idea its more of a bad area. Not as bad as the rinth since the crime-code would stay the same in the day (of course being wanted shouldn't mean an entire unit suddenly comes down on your head any time soon in that particular area) but at night it should clearly be a more dangerous place to wander. Not to mention it would give unlicensed criminal elements just a bit more space to thrive in .

Puh-LEASE do this. 

[Nyr]

I just have one suggestion though. Please remove all the NPC soldiers from the warrens. They would have needed to take the soldiers from somewhere with the war, and units wandering outside the walls . Really though I would like to see the warrens be devoid of npc solider presence to re-enforce the idea its more of a bad area. Not as bad as the rinth since the crime-code would stay the same in the day (of course being wanted shouldn't mean an entire unit suddenly comes down on your head any time soon in that particular area) but at night it should clearly be a more dangerous place to wander. Not to mention it would give unlicensed criminal elements just a bit more space to thrive in .

This is a different project.  Not saying it is without merit, just that it is big enough on its own to be something to address with more than a remapping effort/scripting.

[Desertman]

I just have one suggestion though. Please remove all the NPC soldiers from the warrens. They would have needed to take the soldiers from somewhere with the war, and units wandering outside the walls . Really though I would like to see the warrens be devoid of npc solider presence to re-enforce the idea its more of a bad area. Not as bad as the rinth since the crime-code would stay the same in the day (of course being wanted shouldn't mean an entire unit suddenly comes down on your head any time soon in that particular area) but at night it should clearly be a more dangerous place to wander. Not to mention it would give unlicensed criminal elements just a bit more space to thrive in .

Puh-LEASE do this. 

We have code in place that lets NPC's walk on routes and schedules.

Why not have the soldiers dutifully patrolling this area in the daytime, but at night, the smart and sensible soldiers get out of the bad part of town and find a nicer and safer part of town to patrol?

Kind of makes IC sense too. It's like the cops IRL who don't patrol the third ward at night and somehow find themselves in the safer part of town ignoring the drug dealers. You can't blame them.

[Thunkkin]

The Firestorm reaction was part of the reason we put up a post more than a week in advance of the mapping and the tavern change. 

Other than my Firestorm-lurv, all these changes look fantastic.

[bcw81]

I want to see that statue in the Sanctuary Artisan Area relocated. That shit is sick.

[Is Friday]

I really like the changes offered. More interaction, I like it. I've always liked the darker common class roles in Tuluk, but there was rarely ever anyone else to RP with.

[Malken]

If it's not possible to rethink this Firestorm thing, let me know. Because I'm holding out hope that it's not to late to fix this. Because really, you guys read the docs right? Yeah. Please reconsider?

Have you thought that perhaps the Firestorm being replaced by something else might have something to do with IC stuff going on as well? Edited - (Oh, looks like Nyr answered that one already!)

Also, speaking of the herb lady being moved elsewhere, will we still be able to sell to the poopmeister and collect enough cottons to be allowed purchase of our freedom from the cotton fields, friend?