Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion

[Tiernan]

Where do you people live? I want to come to your homes and try persuasion and failing that violence.

Disturbing.

I wish they would move the stables a bit closer to the middle-class tavern.

I always felt that the stables being so close to the Sanc had a lot to do with why it got so highly populated.

You come into town, you look in the tavern, see everyone there, you might as well join them, it is two squares from the stables anyways. Easy.

Would we build the most fancy tavern in town right next to the smelly stables anyways?

Kind of makes more sense to move it.

It's not on the high-level map, but the stables and wagonyard got moved to the Southwest corner of the Red Sun Commons.   The nearest pub to the stables will be the Tooth.

[bracken]

Fuckin' Muks! First they take our firepits. Now they take our Pub!

[slvrmoontiger]

I honestly don't see what benefit this brings about. Shrinking Tuluk isn't going to change the fact that there are only about a dozen regular players in Tuluk and that is only during prime-time if your lucky. How is this going to inspire people to come to Tuluk? I don't see it happening. I think there should be better ways... Making half of the PC population in Tuluk nobles, really doesn't improve upon getting more people to play there. I keep asking when the number of PCs in Tuluk is going to increase and all I keep getting are response are that its being worked on. Now part of being worked on is dropping out some places that were quite nice to those of us used to playing in Tuluk. Dropping out things and putting a new shiny coat of paint on Tuluk isn't going to improve things its just going to confuse the people who are used to things.

[LauraMars]

I honestly don't see what benefit this brings about. Shrinking Tuluk isn't going to change the fact that there are only about a dozen regular players in Tuluk and that is only during prime-time if your lucky. How is this going to inspire people to come to Tuluk? I don't see it happening. I think there should be better ways... Making half of the PC population in Tuluk nobles, really doesn't improve upon getting more people to play there. I keep asking when the number of PCs in Tuluk is going to increase and all I keep getting are response are that its being worked on. Now part of being worked on is dropping out some places that were quite nice to those of us used to playing in Tuluk. Dropping out things and putting a new shiny coat of paint on Tuluk isn't going to improve things its just going to confuse the people who are used to things.

Part of the reason I don't like playing in Tuluk is because it's too big.  I imagine other people feel the same way.  If Tuluk is smaller, more people will likely be interested in playing there.

[Molten Heart]

Really hope Firestorm is kept, because that place has history behind it and is it the typical bar my characters would play out of.

Otherwise everything is cool.  I  like the sound of it, just sad about Firestorm.

Yes, the Firestorm goes way back.  I'm still a little miffed that whomever redid the Dasari estate removed the restored observatory that the original estate there was built around.  Removing interesting little quirks seems to make the game generic and foreign, removing the nostalgia and fond memories I've had in these virtual places.

Otherwise.  Great idea!  Tuluk is too big.  It needs to be "full", rather than be lots of empty roads that connect around inaccessible space that might as well be empty.  That's how it seems now, at least.

[Twilight]

Where do you people live? I want to come to your homes and try persuasion and failing that violence.

Disturbing.

I wish they would move the stables a bit closer to the middle-class tavern.

I always felt that the stables being so close to the Sanc had a lot to do with why it got so highly populated.

You come into town, you look in the tavern, see everyone there, you might as well join them, it is two squares from the stables anyways. Easy.

Would we build the most fancy tavern in town right next to the smelly stables anyways?

Kind of makes more sense to move it.

It's not on the high-level map, but the stables and wagonyard got moved to the Southwest corner of the Red Sun Commons.   The nearest pub to the stables will be the Tooth.

The reason Sanctuary is popular is the same reason the Gaj was popular.  It is on the road between the gates and the rest of the city.  Which it will no longer be, if I interepret "north side of the Red Sun Commons" correctly.  If another tavern is immediately after the stables rather than the Sanctuary, especially if it is one of the other two that lets foreigners in, it will be the popular one, would be my guess.

Overall I like it, but I have a couple of concerns:

Looking at the map, I do hope it won't be too confusing for newbies.  The smaller size will help.  But the North Road seems to let in directly (essentially) to the Red Sun Commons.  Rather than having a street lead into the heart of the town from gate, which is fairly easy to remember.

Having a road like that is also a standard defensive setup.  IC'ly, that looks completely indefensible, with three ways to go just inside the gates, one of which is into an internal, open area of the city with multiple ways out of it.  I hope some thought will be given to the IC defensiveness of the gates and city perimeter.

Criminals.  If each of those squares is a room, which I am guessing how that should be interpretted...oh my.  One of the few great things about the expansiveness of Tuluk currently was the ability to find a victim for criminal activity.  I hope you don't scrunch all the soldiers that currently exist into that space, and that it is designed with criminals in mind.  Nyr's response above gives rise to concern this might not be the case, as I had kind of assumed you would do a holistic zone design, rather than just move rooms around, cause I trust you guys like that.

[Lizzie]

I wish more historic stories of Freil's Rest were available for the public view. I think that'd take most of the sting out of the Firestorm's upcoming closure. For me, at least. Most of my characters rarely ever hung out in the Firestorm anyway so from an IC perspective I really won't miss it all that much. But the stories that won't be told IC, will make me sad from an OOG perspective. There's a lot about the world that some veteran players knew about, but no longer tell about ICly because they no longer play, OR they are playing characters who would have no knowledge of the information. And so - these stories get lost ICly and OOCly. So - I wish there was some way of preserving the *storytelling* aspect of the Firestorm's existence. But I feel that way about a lot of things in the game that aren't mentioned ICly anymore and aren't in the official docs.

My other concern is the proximity of the stables to Freil's, vs. the proximity of the stables to the new tavern, vs. the proximity of the new tavern to Freil's. Consider the average hunter/trader/traveller who carries just enough of their own stuff, that they need a couple more bags to also carry a carru hide, a couple of gortok hides, a couple of gurth shells, and a few blocky stones of onyx, plus all the other "body parts" that come with the carru, tok, and gurth.

It's already a bit of a trek to the market as it is now, if you're loaded down. But unless you're at "unbelievably heavy" it's totally manageable. If the new stables location is all the way at the southwest corner of the Commons though, it might not be manageable at all. Maybe if there were a couple more NPC vendors who buy and sell raw materials (including gemstones please) in the Commons - that might solve the problem.

Other than those two things, I think this is a great change. I remember when "New Tuluk" first was released, and it was even bigger than it is now. The ride from the Harzen and Reynolte gates to the Tribal market was ridiculous. It got trimmed quite a bit and it was a great improvement. But I think this new map will be an even bigger improvement, notwithstanding the two issues I already mentioned.

Lastly - I realize the Undertuluk won't be the Undertuluk again (RIP - funnest spot evar in the North, IMO), but maybe if the Warrens could actually reflect more of the atmosphere hinted at in the room descriptions and occasional echoes (which also dates back many many years to another era of Northern life), that'd be terrific.

[IntuitiveApathy]

I honestly don't see what benefit this brings about. Shrinking Tuluk isn't going to change the fact that there are only about a dozen regular players in Tuluk and that is only during prime-time if your lucky. How is this going to inspire people to come to Tuluk? I don't see it happening. I think there should be better ways... Making half of the PC population in Tuluk nobles, really doesn't improve upon getting more people to play there. I keep asking when the number of PCs in Tuluk is going to increase and all I keep getting are response are that its being worked on. Now part of being worked on is dropping out some places that were quite nice to those of us used to playing in Tuluk. Dropping out things and putting a new shiny coat of paint on Tuluk isn't going to improve things its just going to confuse the people who are used to things.

Part of the reason I don't like playing in Tuluk is because it's too big.  I imagine other people feel the same way.  If Tuluk is smaller, more people will likely be interested in playing there.

This is one of the big reasons why I haven't played a character based out of Tuluk in years - I hated how it took 1259871295687124 moves to get anywhere I wanted to go.  With this change going in, I might actually make my next character a Tuluki!


ps
Screw the Firestorm, BRING BACK FLINT'S

[Barzalene]

That's ok, when you realize you're wrong, you can retconn it back in.

[Barsook]

I haven't read this whole thing but I have a question about the Old City area.  Will it be still within the walls for grebbers to greb safely?

[Reiloth]

That's ok, when you realize you're wrong, you can retconn it back in.

That's not a great attitude, Barz!

[Barzalene]

I don't think throwing out game history like it means nothing is a good idea.They asked for comments.

[Zoan]

They changed it, now it sucks.

[Molten Heart]

I don't think throwing out game history like it means nothing is a good idea.They asked for comments.

+1

[Fathi]

I'm not going to comment on the IC history behind the taverns because I'm viewing this change as mostly an OOC one but it did always bother me a little that a) Tuluk had so many taverns spread out over like 60 rooms and b) Kurac and Kadius both had their own taverns. In my experience it led to "this clan hangs out at this bar" and "this clan hangs out at this bar" and while that may be realistic from an IC standpoint I don't think it helped interaction much.

I remember back when I played my Chosen, the Kuracis and Kadians around at the time kept trying to insist my PC meet with them and do business with them in THEIR BAR and that always seemed really weird to me because I didn't think a noble would really want to be seen drinking in the Tooth.

[Reiloth]

I don't think throwing out game history like it means nothing is a good idea.They asked for comments.

I don't think they are throwing out game history like it means nothing...It actually looked like a well put together proposal, that they put a lot of thought into, judging by the announcement post. Saying things like "When you are wrong, and you retcon it back in, i'll be thumbing my nose at you" aren't very productive contributions to a discussion. I'm all for discussing the change (there's parts I like, parts I don't), but I don't think that is the best way to go about it.

I do agree that getting rid of the Firestorm is a shame, but lots of things have disappeared for IC reasons from the game over the years, and OOC now that I think of it. Based on IC rumors, it looks like it dovetails nicely into this proposal. I'm fine with the change. I like the idea of three taverns in closer proximity with each other, and less distance in-between destinations in Tuluk.

[Tiernan]

Overall I like it, but I have a couple of concerns:

Looking at the map, I do hope it won't be too confusing for newbies.  The smaller size will help.  But the North Road seems to let in directly (essentially) to the Red Sun Commons.  Rather than having a street lead into the heart of the town from gate, which is fairly easy to remember.

Having a road like that is also a standard defensive setup.  IC'ly, that looks completely indefensible, with three ways to go just inside the gates, one of which is into an internal, open area of the city with multiple ways out of it.  I hope some thought will be given to the IC defensiveness of the gates and city perimeter.

Criminals.  If each of those squares is a room, which I am guessing how that should be interpretted...oh my.  One of the few great things about the expansiveness of Tuluk currently was the ability to find a victim for criminal activity.  I hope you don't scrunch all the soldiers that currently exist into that space, and that it is designed with criminals in mind.  Nyr's response above gives rise to concern this might not be the case, as I had kind of assumed you would do a holistic zone design, rather than just move rooms around, cause I trust you guys like that.

So, first off regarding this high-level map:



I didn't have time to build it to scale or paint it. 

Actually, that's not true.  I can't show you the scaled, super-detailed spreadsheets I have which map out the current city grid and the proposed one, which I used as my guide for building all the scripts  that will do all the heavy lifting in a couple weeks.  This is not a 1x1 mapping grid by any stretch of the imagination, is it a high-level overview of the city.  In particular it shows the notable areas / landmarks and roads.  Please don't try to read more out of it than that.

The North Road entrance is unchanged, you'll still pass through but the North Road does open up into the RSC faster instead of skirting its northern edge.   As for defense, I can think of a few ways that the RSC could be turned into a giant kill box against invaders (or civil unrest), considering its got a few points of ingress and surrounded by walls which one can assume are fortified and patrolled by expert marksmen.   Assuming your army can breach the main gate and the ancient Scaien Wall first.

The goal of this proposal / effort is to minimize changes and maximize opportunities for interaction and roleplay.  Transit times are detrimental to the playability of the city.  Spread things too far out and folks will go to an area that is more efficient with their playtime. 

At the heart of this game the point is to interact with other players, and have fun doing it.   Player density drives interaction which fuels roleplay.   Tuluk's expansive geography dilutes player density.  This effort ought to help boost density and I hope increase the appeal for players to try it out.   I also believe that a lot of the changes we've been making in Tuluk are to create an environment that players want to play in. 

Change is necessary, folks.  Both in life and IC.   We're on a quest for continuous improvement in our game offering to players.  I think you'll like the new layout overall, finding it easier to navigate and faster to get things done.  And most importantly, find others to interact with.   Tuluk isn't a solo-instance dungeon, but sometimes it can feel that way.   I hope that you enjoy the work we do to keep this game around, enrich your experience with our storytelling and world-building efforts, and try to make it a community you like being part of.

[slvrmoontiger]

I honestly don't see what benefit this brings about. Shrinking Tuluk isn't going to change the fact that there are only about a dozen regular players in Tuluk and that is only during prime-time if your lucky. How is this going to inspire people to come to Tuluk? I don't see it happening. I think there should be better ways... Making half of the PC population in Tuluk nobles, really doesn't improve upon getting more people to play there. I keep asking when the number of PCs in Tuluk is going to increase and all I keep getting are response are that its being worked on. Now part of being worked on is dropping out some places that were quite nice to those of us used to playing in Tuluk. Dropping out things and putting a new shiny coat of paint on Tuluk isn't going to improve things its just going to confuse the people who are used to things.

Part of the reason I don't like playing in Tuluk is because it's too big.  I imagine other people feel the same way.  If Tuluk is smaller, more people will likely be interested in playing there.

Okay, color me confused by this response... But isn't Allanak a LOT bigger than Tuluk already? At least it always seemed that way to me... Part of the reason I hated Allanak was because it was too big.

[slvrmoontiger]

I honestly don't see what benefit this brings about. Shrinking Tuluk isn't going to change the fact that there are only about a dozen regular players in Tuluk and that is only during prime-time if your lucky. How is this going to inspire people to come to Tuluk? I don't see it happening. I think there should be better ways... Making half of the PC population in Tuluk nobles, really doesn't improve upon getting more people to play there. I keep asking when the number of PCs in Tuluk is going to increase and all I keep getting are response are that its being worked on. Now part of being worked on is dropping out some places that were quite nice to those of us used to playing in Tuluk. Dropping out things and putting a new shiny coat of paint on Tuluk isn't going to improve things its just going to confuse the people who are used to things.

Part of the reason I don't like playing in Tuluk is because it's too big.  I imagine other people feel the same way.  If Tuluk is smaller, more people will likely be interested in playing there.

Sorry about the double post... It acted like it hadn't posted so I tried again and it did.

[Barzalene]

I think it looks 90% wonderful. I'm sure it will have the desired affect. I just think you can have the same affect by moving the Firestorm to the new location rather than replacing it. Which is not as good as keeping it in the village but much better than losing it.

[ShaLeah]

Wow.

I like the idea of the Sanc being nothing but rich affiliated folk and their guests, like the old time Trader's Inn was. Moar segregation!

I like the Tooth staying.

I really think Firestorms should stay historically. This makes me sad, seriously.

Glad for the majority of the changes.

I heart Natious the nauseous in my feelings place.

[Malken]

I really hope that the Firestorm is needed to stay as an artifact of the past and for the sake of memories is some sort of joke that I don't understand, because if you can't go along IC driven changes in the gameworld for the sake of keeping "historical memories" alive and well, that's pretty sad.

[LauraMars]

I honestly don't see what benefit this brings about. Shrinking Tuluk isn't going to change the fact that there are only about a dozen regular players in Tuluk and that is only during prime-time if your lucky. How is this going to inspire people to come to Tuluk? I don't see it happening. I think there should be better ways... Making half of the PC population in Tuluk nobles, really doesn't improve upon getting more people to play there. I keep asking when the number of PCs in Tuluk is going to increase and all I keep getting are response are that its being worked on. Now part of being worked on is dropping out some places that were quite nice to those of us used to playing in Tuluk. Dropping out things and putting a new shiny coat of paint on Tuluk isn't going to improve things its just going to confuse the people who are used to things.

Part of the reason I don't like playing in Tuluk is because it's too big.  I imagine other people feel the same way.  If Tuluk is smaller, more people will likely be interested in playing there.

Okay, color me confused by this response... But isn't Allanak a LOT bigger than Tuluk already? At least it always seemed that way to me... Part of the reason I hated Allanak was because it was too big.

I don't actually know how many rooms there are in nak vs how many there are in tuluk.  But the frequently populated areas of allanak are MUCH closer together, and in Tuluk I always felt vaguely depressed whenever I needed to go anywhere because I knew it would take so long and require so much spamwalking.  In Allanak I don't feel that way.  So yeah..this is a great change.

[boog]

How am I supposed to delay things in Tuluk now?

"Meet me in the Tooth."
"But I'm in the Circle. It's going to take a few hours."

Dammit. My (future/past) plans.

[Yseulte]

With the gardens, tribal-quarter and Poet's abreast one another as the map shows - how will that work to safeguard certain cultures from non-Citizens that may or may not currently be barred to them as is?