Tuluki Shrinkinator / Tavern Restructuring Discussion

[slvrmoontiger]

First, I wanted to apologize if any of my comments seemed snarky or rude or abrupt. I love Tuluk with a passion and sometimes that passion gets the best of me.

Secondly, the biggest thing I'm missing here is how this will all be acted out IC. I find it hard to believe that you go to sleep one day and wake up the next and boom, your apartment is moved, the streets you were used to walking on are gone and/or re-arranged, and you have no idea where anything is anymore.

I wanted to state I completely understand why this needs to be done and agree that it does need to be done. Today, well yesterday I had a great lesson in seeing how big Tuluk really is... Its freakin HUGE. And a lot of things cause a lot of wasted time. This can cause huge amounts of problems IG as I found out quite quickly. I took a walk through the current Tuluk and discovered to look at everything in detail it would take close to four IG days. That's just way to large.

I applaud the efforts of staff and the great work, time, and effort they are constantly putting forth to make this game that we all love and are passionate for better. They do this as volunteers, never getting paid for their hard work. The only way we really can pay them is to thank them for the work they do. I find I don't do this nearly enough. I'm sorry for that.

[Reiloth]

I think you as the player need to take a step back from you as the PC you are playing --

The way ret-cons like this work is, you roll with it. It's only as awkward as you make it. It'll take some getting used to, but there have been dozens of changes like this over the years, and I can't even really remember them all as a player. Give it a couple of weeks, and you'll be right as rain (or sand?)

[CodeMaster]

There is the 'directions' command too, which I sometimes use to slingshot my PC around even in places I'm familiar with.

Kudos to the staff for polishing the game world.

[slvrmoontiger]

I think you as the player need to take a step back from you as the PC you are playing --

The way ret-cons like this work is, you roll with it. It's only as awkward as you make it. It'll take some getting used to, but there have been dozens of changes like this over the years, and I can't even really remember them all as a player. Give it a couple of weeks, and you'll be right as rain (or sand?)

You're right on the many changes made in the past, however I don't recall a single one that was made without some sort of IG situation that caused it to happen. The destruction of the Crater and the ruins was created in an HRPT. This is whole sections gone missing and a apartment building *poof* getting moved. My character will just believe things have always been that way and that's the way it is, even though it lacks cohesion.

[MeTekillot]

flash powder

[manonfire]

traps

[Malken]

I think you as the player need to take a step back from you as the PC you are playing --

The way ret-cons like this work is, you roll with it. It's only as awkward as you make it. It'll take some getting used to, but there have been dozens of changes like this over the years, and I can't even really remember them all as a player. Give it a couple of weeks, and you'll be right as rain (or sand?)

You're right on the many changes made in the past, however I don't recall a single one that was made without some sort of IG situation that caused it to happen. The destruction of the Crater and the ruins was created in an HRPT. This is whole sections gone missing and a apartment building *poof* getting moved. My character will just believe things have always been that way and that's the way it is, even though it lacks cohesion.

Dude, it's just a freaking game.

[Reiloth]

flash powder

traps

These are perfect examples of things that have disappeared without an IC explanation. Flash Powder was used in some historic events (Terrorism in Allanak, for example, during the Tuluki Revolution), and yet it is not manufactured/used any longer IG.

Trap was also a skill that never seemed to have the training wheels taken off -- It was difficult to use, except to 'trap' backpacks and leave them in funny places (or give them to people on purpose) so they would blow up. With the skill gone, we have to similarly discount the history surrounding it.

The expansion of the Labyrinth seemed to not have an IC explanation, but was just a fleshing out of the world.

Also, the End of the World plots in general were pretty much redacted without IC explanation, because it would be confusing to have IC explanations for end of the world plots. And so...OOC redaction.

In a similar vein, this seems to be an OOC restructuring based on OOC problems, and from what Tiernan is saying, consolidating the player base in a city where it's easy (currently) to be spread thin. I wasn't around for the Tuluki Liberation days, but from the stories i've heard, this current incarnation of Tuluk was a similar OOC construct plopped down over the old. It doesn't bother me.

[Ouroboros]

I don't have much to say on this really, outside of the fact I think the change is positive and will benefit the game in the long-term. I can understand why some players are feeling the loss of Firestorm harder than others, but in my experience it's simply a result of getting attached to fixtures of the game over years of gameplay. The loss of Trader's in Allanak still annoys me for example, even though I understand that it's for sentimental reasons and overall the game improved from its removal.

Speaking personally, and as objectively as I can, the only part of the tavern changes that I feel was more hindering than beneficial was the removal of the Burrow. I'm fully aware how little use it actually saw, but due to that, it's also the one tavern that I feel could have remained in place safely without impacting gameplay. It didn't serve to splinter the Tuluk pbase, since it was rarely used and never saw any active tavern-sitting. But it enabled occasional and sporadic meetings that were far more appropriately held there, then elsewhere. It was an area that visiting tribals could meet residents without feeling out of place, for the occasional trade or social rp, and even locals would sometimes use it when they desired a meeting place without much traffic and distractions. I actually think I've actively used it with just about every northern character I've had, and in those instances, it added a lot of flavor to the experience. So unlike all other removals, which I think will benefit the game long-term, it's removal to me is a negative. But it's a small enough negative, as small as the positive it offered, that it's not something worth fighting for either.

I look forward to seeing how these changes affect those playing in Tuluk, and I hope that in the long run they'll be as beneficial as I think they will be.

[Lizzie]

I agree with Ouroboros' sentiments (and sentimentality ). His post sparks a thought - what do people think about this, in addition to the new tavern...

A new firepit, in the Red Sun Commons, with just a nice-looking wood and stone pergola with lattice-sided "walls". Sort of a hybrid pergola/gazebo, which would have to be open in the middle to the sky so that the heat from the firepit's flames have an easy escape. There'd be no NPC, no save-room stuff - but perhaps it might give a mini-boost to people who try to cook there. With a few sturdy polished granite benches, like the old firepit used to have, that could accommodate half a dozen people or 2 half-giants each, and form a circle around the pit. I think it'd be pretty awesome if a place like this could allow half-giants to *sit* at a table-object, since a solid stone bench wouldn't break under a HG's weight (or two, or hey maybe even three).

This would make for a great gathering spot for locals and tribals to meet and do trade. I used to love the firepit in Freil's Rest, I used it far more often than I ever used the Firestorm next door. The Commons seems like a perfect spot to build a new one, which would function the same as the old one did (minus the - what was it that came out en masse after the flooding? Rats? Spiders? Is it even in the docs? It should be if it isn't.).

[IntuitiveApathy]

flash powder

traps

These are perfect examples of things that have disappeared without an IC explanation. Flash Powder was used in some historic events (Terrorism in Allanak, for example, during the Tuluki Revolution), and yet it is not manufactured/used any longer IG.

Trap was also a skill that never seemed to have the training wheels taken off -- It was difficult to use, except to 'trap' backpacks and leave them in funny places (or give them to people on purpose) so they would blow up. With the skill gone, we have to similarly discount the history surrounding it.

The expansion of the Labyrinth seemed to not have an IC explanation, but was just a fleshing out of the world.

Also, the End of the World plots in general were pretty much redacted without IC explanation, because it would be confusing to have IC explanations for end of the world plots. And so...OOC redaction.

In a similar vein, this seems to be an OOC restructuring based on OOC problems, and from what Tiernan is saying, consolidating the player base in a city where it's easy (currently) to be spread thin. I wasn't around for the Tuluki Liberation days, but from the stories i've heard, this current incarnation of Tuluk was a similar OOC construct plopped down over the old. It doesn't bother me.

A long time ago, in a Ginka far, far away, there was a tavern called Flint's in the centre of a city called Tuluk.

Flint's was the was the bestest tavern ever.  There, you could hobnob with halfling magickers, mantis raiders, hard-nosed templars, half-giants with steel swords and amour, maybe the odd J'Karr or two that wasn't busy spam-sparring and a mul at a table in the back with whom you could arm-wrestle.

One day, the staff decided they didn't want Flint's anymore.  There were a lot of things they didn't want anymore too, but Flint's was my favouritest tavern you see.  They made up some story about a stone mage who casted one too many earthquakes outside, and turned it into a pile of rubble.  (granted, there were many earthquakes casted in the square outside Flint's over the years I'm sure).

Much sad was had.

But things were made better.

Except when the day New Tuluk came, with it's kajillion needless rooms. 

So then again, much sad was had.

The day when Tuluk shrinks once more, is a day we should be happy for.  Change can be good.  Changes via IC are even better.  But Staff?  Staff is bestest - without staff there would be no better, ever.


Thank you staff old and new (and ageless as our Timelord), for being bestest, for all that you do.  If our Den Mother was still around, I'd be half-inclined to suggest we turn that OOC concept of Mother's Day into Staffer's Day..

[slvrmoontiger]

flash powder

traps

These are perfect examples of things that have disappeared without an IC explanation. Flash Powder was used in some historic events (Terrorism in Allanak, for example, during the Tuluki Revolution), and yet it is not manufactured/used any longer IG.

Trap was also a skill that never seemed to have the training wheels taken off -- It was difficult to use, except to 'trap' backpacks and leave them in funny places (or give them to people on purpose) so they would blow up. With the skill gone, we have to similarly discount the history surrounding it.

The expansion of the Labyrinth seemed to not have an IC explanation, but was just a fleshing out of the world.

Also, the End of the World plots in general were pretty much redacted without IC explanation, because it would be confusing to have IC explanations for end of the world plots. And so...OOC redaction.

In a similar vein, this seems to be an OOC restructuring based on OOC problems, and from what Tiernan is saying, consolidating the player base in a city where it's easy (currently) to be spread thin. I wasn't around for the Tuluki Liberation days, but from the stories i've heard, this current incarnation of Tuluk was a similar OOC construct plopped down over the old. It doesn't bother me.

Agreed, but its a lot easier to IC'ly grasp the disappearance of some minerals or whatever flash powder was considered than say an apartment being moved over night because the road no longer exists that it was on. Especially in a city where magick isn't permitted or allowed. I understand the reasoning for this and my character will act like its always been this way since this is supposed to be an OOC change, but it greatly affect IC by things just being gone or moved. That's all i was trying to say. It is a game and its not a big deal really in the realm of all things that could happen. I'm just trying to make a point of how affecting this can be. I'm also concerned for players that don't read the GDB much that might be in Tuluk and I know there have been players in the past like this, I'm not sure if that's the case currently. What will these players think when they wake up to find their apartment just moved and the roads gone? Its going to cause some confusion, and possibly some thoughts of magick being at work for those player's characters.

[manonfire]

flash powder

traps

These are perfect examples of things that have disappeared without an IC explanation. Flash Powder was used in some historic events (Terrorism in Allanak, for example, during the Tuluki Revolution), and yet it is not manufactured/used any longer IG.

Trap was also a skill that never seemed to have the training wheels taken off -- It was difficult to use, except to 'trap' backpacks and leave them in funny places (or give them to people on purpose) so they would blow up. With the skill gone, we have to similarly discount the history surrounding it.

The expansion of the Labyrinth seemed to not have an IC explanation, but was just a fleshing out of the world.

Also, the End of the World plots in general were pretty much redacted without IC explanation, because it would be confusing to have IC explanations for end of the world plots. And so...OOC redaction.

In a similar vein, this seems to be an OOC restructuring based on OOC problems, and from what Tiernan is saying, consolidating the player base in a city where it's easy (currently) to be spread thin. I wasn't around for the Tuluki Liberation days, but from the stories i've heard, this current incarnation of Tuluk was a similar OOC construct plopped down over the old. It doesn't bother me.

Agreed, but its a lot easier to IC'ly grasp the disappearance of some minerals or whatever flash powder was considered than say an apartment being moved over night because the road no longer exists that it was on. Especially in a city where magick isn't permitted or allowed. I understand the reasoning for this and my character will act like its always been this way since this is supposed to be an OOC change, but it greatly affect IC by things just being gone or moved. That's all i was trying to say. It is a game and its not a big deal really in the realm of all things that could happen. I'm just trying to make a point of how affecting this can be. I'm also concerned for players that don't read the GDB much that might be in Tuluk and I know there have been players in the past like this, I'm not sure if that's the case currently. What will these players think when they wake up to find their apartment just moved and the roads gone? Its going to cause some confusion, and possibly some thoughts of magick being at work for those player's characters.

dude what

[IntuitiveApathy]

flash powder

traps

These are perfect examples of things that have disappeared without an IC explanation. Flash Powder was used in some historic events (Terrorism in Allanak, for example, during the Tuluki Revolution), and yet it is not manufactured/used any longer IG.

Trap was also a skill that never seemed to have the training wheels taken off -- It was difficult to use, except to 'trap' backpacks and leave them in funny places (or give them to people on purpose) so they would blow up. With the skill gone, we have to similarly discount the history surrounding it.

The expansion of the Labyrinth seemed to not have an IC explanation, but was just a fleshing out of the world.

Also, the End of the World plots in general were pretty much redacted without IC explanation, because it would be confusing to have IC explanations for end of the world plots. And so...OOC redaction.

In a similar vein, this seems to be an OOC restructuring based on OOC problems, and from what Tiernan is saying, consolidating the player base in a city where it's easy (currently) to be spread thin. I wasn't around for the Tuluki Liberation days, but from the stories i've heard, this current incarnation of Tuluk was a similar OOC construct plopped down over the old. It doesn't bother me.

Agreed, but its a lot easier to IC'ly grasp the disappearance of some minerals or whatever flash powder was considered than say an apartment being moved over night because the road no longer exists that it was on. Especially in a city where magick isn't permitted or allowed. I understand the reasoning for this and my character will act like its always been this way since this is supposed to be an OOC change, but it greatly affect IC by things just being gone or moved. That's all i was trying to say. It is a game and its not a big deal really in the realm of all things that could happen. I'm just trying to make a point of how affecting this can be. I'm also concerned for players that don't read the GDB much that might be in Tuluk and I know there have been players in the past like this, I'm not sure if that's the case currently. What will these players think when they wake up to find their apartment just moved and the roads gone? Its going to cause some confusion, and possibly some thoughts of magick being at work for those player's characters.

[Hicksville Hoochie]

One thing to remember, that I don't believe is being mentioned, (forgive me if it has been and I missed it!) is that the city we codedly walk around in, is not the full city at large. While Tuluk is shrinking in coded rooms, the city itself still remains the massive stretch of land that it is.

When walking along random coded street in whichever city, there may only be a north and south exit, but virtually, what we're looking at is potentially multiple streets, buildings, crowds, etc, all there, but just not for the sake of game coding, and so we can go from a noble's quarter to the other side of the city in a couple of minutes, instead of a couple of hours.

For the things being moved around, such as apartments, shops, artwork, etc - it's not something you might want to look at as having changed. To make things less jarring for your own IC experiences, just consider perhaps, that you're now going down some of those virtual side-roads, while the old, non-virtual ones are no longer the optimal path.

You'll have much less of a headache for doing so, and enjoy yourself a lot more if you don't let something that's ultimately convenient get to you in a bad way.

[Nyr]

Agreed, but its a lot easier to IC'ly grasp the disappearance of some minerals or whatever flash powder was considered than say an apartment being moved over night because the road no longer exists that it was on. Especially in a city where magick isn't permitted or allowed.  I understand the reasoning for this and my character will act like its always been this way since this is supposed to be an OOC change, but it greatly affect IC by things just being gone or moved. That's all i was trying to say. It is a game and its not a big deal really in the realm of all things that could happen. I'm just trying to make a point of how affecting this can be. I'm also concerned for players that don't read the GDB much that might be in Tuluk and I know there have been players in the past like this, I'm not sure if that's the case currently. What will these players think when they wake up to find their apartment just moved and the roads gone? Its going to cause some confusion, and possibly some thoughts of magick being at work for those player's characters.

If anyone ignores the GDB, the news on the front page of the website, the news section in the game, the map helpfile, the directions helpfile, and the in-game rumor boards...and also chooses to believe that "gee, things moved around, must be magick"...they probably deserve all of that confusion, and all of those unrealistic thoughts of magick being at work.  If nothing else, it'll be good for a laugh.

The same always goes for anyone that logs into the game after any coded change/world change/etc. without paying attention.  We can only ever do so much to inform players when stuff changes, and trying to cater specifically to that (hopefully small) minority of players is a losing proposition.

[X-D]

My 2 sids.

First, making Tuluk more compact...great.

Removing taverns...um, not so great. I do not believe that it actually does anything to get people together. If my PC would go to the Tooth...then well, he will, but if the tooth was gone would he choose another tavern...not likely.
The burrow is one at least that I think should have stayed, it had a use...sure, it might not have been used often but then, that was the point to using it.

Besides, some people or PCs avoid crowded taverns, be for IC or OOC (THE SPAM...MY EYES AAARRRGGGHH) Reasons.

[MeTekillot]

I, for one, use taverns for target practice.

raise hood
throw spear man east
south
quit ooc Connection problems!

[solera]

I agree with Ouroboros' sentiments (and sentimentality ). His post sparks a thought - what do people think about this, in addition to the new tavern...

A new firepit, in the Red Sun Commons,

This would make for a great gathering spot for locals and tribals to meet and do trade. I used to love the firepit in Freil's Rest, I used it far more often than I ever used the Firestorm next door. The Commons seems like a perfect spot to build a new one, which would function the same as the old one did (minus the - what was it that came out en masse after the flooding? Rats? Spiders? Is it even in the docs? It should be if it isn't.).

But not stones to sit on (that's another place) The Firepit had logs! It was opposite the Firestorm doors I think,(?) which was good for the ooc purpose of watching other PC action. I think I'd prefer it more private though this time.

[Old Kank]

First, making Tuluk more compact...great.

Removing taverns...um, not so great. I do not believe that it actually does anything to get people together.

Exactly.  I love the plan to shrink Tuluk.

I don't understand removing taverns.  Maybe I missed the explanation, but what's the point of taking them out?

[Malken]

First, making Tuluk more compact...great.

Removing taverns...um, not so great. I do not believe that it actually does anything to get people together.

Exactly.  I love the plan to shrink Tuluk.

I don't understand removing taverns.  Maybe I missed the explanation, but what's the point of taking them out?

The removal of the Firestorm is an IC event, Staff said so and as someone who played in Tuluk the last few months, I also sorta knew it was before even reading Staff announcement (Just read the IC board in Tuluk, there's been Firestorm news for the last 6+ months).

People arguing that they don't want the Firestorm removed is sorta like saying that you don't want the Gypsy lands changed/removed because it was part of the game for so long IF staff had told us before the HRPT that the gypsy lands would be transformed into a giant parking lot for Volcanozor the Turd.

Tuluk is in DIRE need of changes, I can't remember the last time the playerbase has been so low in that location and I play Tuluki like.. 89% of the time. I love the place but man, it's been hard to find/keep characters to interact with for a while before they disappear/store suddenly and without notice. So any changes is fine by me, really.

[Old Kank]

The removal of the Firestorm is an IC event, Staff said so and as someone who played in Tuluk the last few months, I also sorta knew it was before even reading Staff announcement (Just read the IC board in Tuluk, there's been Firestorm news for the last 6+ months).

I don't play in Tuluk.  I have no clue what's happening there.  So, a follow-up question:  IC events being driven by staff, or players?

From Nyr:  Taverns

While we do not normally discuss things that touch on the in-character world, in this case, an exception is being made because it involves some IC stuff mixed with some OOC decisions...

(snip!)

This will hopefully solve a few issues we've seen that we feel are worth taking a look at.

That statement, the removal of the Burrow and the Punch, and the fact that it was raised on the GDB instead of being handled completely in-game makes it seem like there's some staff-driven OOC motivation leading to the IC action, and if that's the case, that's fine, but I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around what could warrant throwing away a piece of the game's history.

[Malken]

I don't play in Tuluk.  I have no clue what's happening there.  So, a follow-up question:  IC events being driven by staff, or players?

Well, that's very hard for me to say since even though I've played a lot lately in Tuluk, I'm not in some deep circle that would know many secrets.

Without revealing too much IC stuff, there's been a lot of "bad stuff" happening in the Firestorm in the last few months (most of it player-drive from what I can tell) that someone or something shutting it down doesn't come to a surprise to me.

My feeling says that it's probably an OOC decision but made easy to explain due to a lot of IC reasons regarding the Firestorm.

[Nyr]

The removal of the Firestorm is an IC event, Staff said so and as someone who played in Tuluk the last few months, I also sorta knew it was before even reading Staff announcement (Just read the IC board in Tuluk, there's been Firestorm news for the last 6+ months).

I don't play in Tuluk.  I have no clue what's happening there.  So, a follow-up question:  IC events being driven by staff, or players?

Staff and players both contribute to plots.  Sometimes players develop things that staff assist.  Sometimes players assist in things that staff create.  In the end, it doesn't matter too much except to people that won't be satisfied regardless of what staff or players do.

From Nyr:  Taverns

While we do not normally discuss things that touch on the in-character world, in this case, an exception is being made because it involves some IC stuff mixed with some OOC decisions...

The OOC decisions:

• we're remapping Tuluk for the reasons Tiernan explained
• we're putting a new tavern in a spot that will be more central to interaction
• we're adjusting the ambiance and other stuff related to these taverns
• since we are doing all of this stuff we wanted to tell people in advance so they would know rather than be completely surprised

(snip!)

This will hopefully solve a few issues we've seen that we feel are worth taking a look at.

Under each tavern there was something that indicated what those issues were.

• low-class tavern with brawl code allowed and decor changed if needed to be more low-class
• high-class tavern made more high-class, removing the stuff that doesn't make so much sense there considering everything else we are doing here
• middle-class tavern that is more centrally located, dorms will be here, it'll be the place where players start, etc.

That statement, and the fact that it was raised on the GDB instead of being handled completely in-game makes it seem like there's some staff-driven OOC motivation leading to the IC action, and if that's the case, that's fine

Sometimes things are done for more than one reason.  This was one of those times.  That's about it.

Plus, if you did play in Tuluk, you'd have the opportunity to see what we are doing with the new site and what is going on behind the scenes even if you don't like what is happening as a player.

[Bogre]

The Red Sun Commons always seemed much much blander to me than Freil's Rest. In Freils you have the amphitheater, murals, shops, gardens, windy little passageways - the RSC is just something people traverse to get between other places.