Tuluki Population

[Voular]

Lack of population (to begin with, this is an evil spiral), lacking documentation, a more complicated setting, narrower setting, no natural Byn presence so on - it all leads to less players there. Tbh, Allanak is more easily identifiable as a Dark Sun inspired setting and probably what most new players pick and most are won over by - and if they start branching out they might go Luir's, Red Storm after that.

Perhaps offer a few weeks of having a dedicated staffer to coach players hands on who want to play in Tuluk? Set up chat rooms, try to craft a background and help them understand the mindset with a few examples. Push them in game with some free gear and some pointers and perhaps a guide around the city as an NPC family member? I mean it would be favouratism, but if a lot of players havn't played Tuluk because they find it intimidating then that might be the way to go. In the end it won't break game balance or make them secret psionics, just offer a helping hand to hesitant Tuluki players.

[Cutthroat]

Tuluk is really less intimidating than you think. The documentation can be (and currently is being) improved. But in terms of starting a new PC it more or less works like anywhere else. Pick a background, a goal upon getting into the game (e.g. joining a clan, getting patronage or doing some indie job) and pick a guild/sub that fits those. If you want to be a bard, the additional step of putting a request to the Poet's Circle clan would be needed before the app is put in.

Sample backgrounds for both cities are a pretty good idea for newbies. Everyone just sort of knows that in Allanak, a newbie will have an easy time starting as a farmer yokel who doesn't know anything about the ways of the city-slickers. What is the equivalent in Tuluk?

[KankWhisperer]

Background:

Ignorant yokel from the Warrens. Good to go.

[Nyr]

lacking documentation

Not sure if serious.  While documentation work remains to be done, it is within the clan level.  After it is done there, some tweaks will be made to the overall documentation for Tuluk, because then it will need to be changed.  It's not like people are flying blind, though!

a more complicated setting

Tribal, Orwellian-influenced city-state.

I've pointed out elsewhere but the whole subtle thing/everything happening behind closed doors/"omg nothing overt happens in Tuluk" has become overplayed; we're fixing that.  I mentioned it a bit here and here.  However, let's break down what a tribal Orwellian city-state might be.

Muk Utep conquered the tribes.  Over time those tribal influences have remained quite a bit more prevalent.  Tattooing is one area that this shows up.  One of the noble Houses was (as recently as during the Occupation) a tribe of guerilla fighters elevated to noble status.  The dress and style in Tuluk is influenced by this.  In a nod to the Tuluki fashion documentation, the new Tuluki templar uniforms will follow those lines and hopefully better establish this tribal influence.

Orwellian does not simply mean "totalitarian."  It doesn't simply mean "you are told the truth, citizen, and that is what the truth is."  Doublethink is one of the concepts of 1984 that was the most chilling--holding two ideas in your head, simultaneously, knowing that each defied the other, bringing the one to the fore when necessary and discarding the other when convenient--and seeing no problem with this whatsoever.  The way it is being approached in Tuluk is not quite as difficult as that, though it is still in its fledgling stages.

A city-state is probably self-explanatory.  It is a city plus the surrounding territory; it considers itself to be an independent and self-governing entity.  Since this means a large population within a (relatively) smaller area, city-type lifestyles emerge and affect other paradigms.  However, since the city-state is also not the size of a modern nation, it is also affected by the limits of its smaller size.

Put all three together.  It is not any one thing overshadowing the rest, it is all three mixed together.  You will have some tribal aspects showing up, but it won't be the same as living in a single tribe because everyone has their own agendas and loyalties.  You will have some Orwellian-type influences (examples of doublethink, of a totalitarian government, of corruption, of the state creating its own truth), but it won't be as though you're living in the midst of 1984 because the scale is smaller.

Examples:

1.  The ascension of a new High Precentor.  At an event to celebrate this, two executions are held, both at the actual hands of the High Precentor and the Precentor she replaced.  This is mentioned in the history documentation.  It is a one-off mentionable.  Take some time and think about that.  Public executions had always been rare in Tuluk (per documentation).  Not only was this public and at what was called "a public celebration," the executions were by the hands of those nearest the top in terms of power and influence.  To compare this to modern times, imagine your President or Prime Minister executing someone on live television with his or her own hands.  Those that were at the event saw other things that would've (likely) been just as chilling, but that'll be left for people to "know" IC.  In that same history entry, it mentions that there are rumors of widespread disappearances throughout Tuluk.  This is all after it is mentioned that there were spies in Tuluk.

In short, you have a witch hunt in Tuluk...except not for witches, for once.

2. The eradication of the Hlum. The Lirathan Order casts the whole goddamned chunk of commoners-turned-nobles as traitors and collaborators (read: also spies).  The place gets burned down.  Then everyone is told "oh, by the way, the Hlum never existed."  And to this day, there's still a burnt hulk of a building where their "Estate" used to be.  It is a visible reminder that "something happened," yet people are also supposed to think "well it isn't the Hlum because the Hlum don't exist and never existed, and in fact I didn't just think 'Hlum', now did I?"

3.  Both Orders get publicly removed and replaced with "one templarate."  Ok, how is this any of those Orwellian-influenced things?  I'll answer that with another question:  who is still in charge?  That'd be the same High Precentor.

4.  Shadow artists are now less "agents of their bosses" and somewhat "agents of the state."  That documentation is pretty much all out there (except for what templars have on it).

I don't think it's that complicated, but maybe it does need to be discussed more so that the dots that we on staff think are "obvious" are connected a bit more solidly.  It's not as though any of the above is a secret, after all.

narrower setting

Allanak HAS been putting on the pounds, lately, but you don't need to be so mean about it!

no natural Byn presence

...due to actual IC events, like, I dunno, the Byn being seen as involved on the Allanaki side of a battle?  Even if they are mercenaries (which they are), actions on either side of a conflict have consequences that should be borne out so that things do not remain stagnant.  And really, before the battle, the Byn weren't exactly always in Tuluk as it was.  Traditionally it is a southern organization.

so on - it all leads to less players there.

You started out with "lower population" and ended with "leads to less players there."  I can't fault you for that logic, but I have to admit that I don't think you can use "lower population" as a factor that "leads to less players there" considering that both things are the same thing.

Tbh, Allanak is more easily identifiable as a Dark Sun inspired setting and probably what most new players pick and most are won over by - and if they start branching out they might go Luir's, Red Storm after that.

How many Tuluki characters have you played and for how long?  My first suggestion would be "read the documentation and jump into a role there."  It's not that difficult!

I checked through points to Tuluk from new characters over the past week and a half.  18 to Tuluk, 25 to Allanak.  Yes, more people pointed to Allanak this week.  It's a fairly negligible difference; our goal is not to make people point to one city state as often as the other.

Perhaps offer a few weeks of having a dedicated staffer to coach players hands on who want to play in Tuluk? Set up chat rooms, try to craft a background and help them understand the mindset with a few examples. Push them in game with some free gear and some pointers and perhaps a guide around the city as an NPC family member? I mean it would be favouratism, but if a lot of players havn't played Tuluk because they find it intimidating then that might be the way to go. In the end it won't break game balance or make them secret psionics, just offer a helping hand to hesitant Tuluki players.

At best we might put up some sample backgrounds for both city-states.  However, you can already get gear (not free) in the starter shops.  You can read the map helpfile.  You can read the docs.  It wouldn't be favoritism so much as unnecessary hand-holding.  A better approach might be to come up with a better "what you know" page once everything is finished for the revamp in Tuluk.  Hey, that's actually what we're going to do!

What is it that you find intimidating about Tuluk?  What makes you hesitant?

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I reiterate. Make Sujaal's Museum the new Byn for Tuluk. There. That problem's solved.:-D

[Barsook]

I would rather see someone try to create a northern-based Byn-like clan for some more conflict and competition.

[Delusion]

Not really related to the rest of my post, but http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,24087.0.html contains a bunch of stuff about Tuluki templars, Muk, and stuff, that might be better off in some more readily available format.

Okay. That aside, actual IG stuff, nothing to do with docs or whatever...

Those tattoos. I feel like if I make a Tuluki PC, simply having those citizenship tattoos greatly restricts my available options for a character. A person without tattoos can try and pass as being from any number of places, and mingle with others in the world without too much difficulty. The moment my character is seen to be Tuluki, however? Instant distrust and/or outright hostility from certain quarters. Which is all well and good, conflict etcetera, but I feel restricted by it.

Barricades. What? Why? IC reasoning be damned for a moment, do these make the game more interesting or enjoyable for anyone in any sense? I had rather a good time playing an uninked PC in Tuluk once before, but not being able to go into the city's main bar? I feel bad for the Chosen who don't really have anywhere else to go regularly to interact with other PCs outside of their clan, because, well, if I play in Tuluk again, my character will hang round the Firestorm or Tooth so I can get to interact with PCs from beyond the city, who might have interesting stuff to talk about or get involved with. Which leads on to...

The culture of keeping very, very quiet about everything. I've had three PCs in Tuluk who have found out bits of information of the sort which the templarate would deem irregular and inappropriate. Only in one instance did that come from a regular conversation between my PC and another; that person was summarily told to shut up. Tuluki taverns are the most boring thing in-game -- you have to go behind closed doors to hope to get to talk about anything at all beyond "so, hey, great weather today". Why have the main gathering places for many PCs be boring?

Few players leads to fewer players. That's self-evident. Just as larger numbers of players tend to attract more players, since there's more stuff to do.

Closure of the arena's training grounds. What did this achieve? Tuluk is still the very safest environment around for combat characters to go and skill up. And everyone can beat up gurth and gortoks all day long without needing to involve another PC, whereas the arena at least fostered interaction.

Sponsored roles must be ... something? I don't know what. But with a few notable exceptions, and those deserve some sort of prize for their sheer patience, Tuluk-bound sponsored roles seem to have a fairly short lifespan.

Not down to anything specific, but I had a go at a Tuluki citizen not so very long ago, and I tried so very hard to engage other PCs with that character, and just... couldn't. I'm not the best player ever, and could probably have spiced that character up some more, but I have a feeling that it would have gone fantastically in Allanak. Tuluk, though? No such luck. 

Short-ish post, I know, but I'm 1) trying to write a character report, too, and 2) just thought a lot of this stuff would be kind of plain to see.

[Lizzie]

My two sids:

I enjoyed Tuluk more when the Warrens were perceived as seedier than they are perceived. I also enjoyed Tuluk more when the Lirathans were Lirathans, but left the Heart more often to interact visibly with the playerbase. I also enjoyed Tuluk MUCH more when the UnderTuluk existed, because it was "the bogeyman" of Tuluk. On a world-reaching level, Allanak is the enemy. No doubt about that, I'm cool with it. But on a day-to-day level, what is Tuluk's antagonist? What is the antagonist that the players know, that their characters know, that they can roleplay out, in the open and in public? Nothing.

You can't talk about oppression, even though you're surely being oppressed. You can't talk about magicks, you can't talk about assassinations, you can't talk about - well - pretty much anything significant. So bar talk ends up being totally meaningless idle chitchat and veiled innuendo that seems more like "inside jokes" to anyone who isn't in on it, creating resentment and disinterest on an OOC level as well as an IC level.

I would love to see the ugly underbelly rise JUST enough to make sure everyone is aware that it exists, while keeping it ugly, and keeping it the underbelly. Not sanctioning it like they did with the Shadow Artists.

Add a new section to the Warrens that isn't pretty and filled with lovely statues and NPCs who make gorgeous crafted things or whatever else, that is horrifying to those who don't live there - and is probably scary to those who do live there. I don't mean just on an IC level. I mean new players, and players new to the area - the *players* should have a gut-dropping experience, if they mistakenly or purposefully wandered in. Just like you have in the Rinth, and just like a rinthi would have if he's from the east side daring to cross to the west, and vice versa, just like anyone -rinthi or otherwise - would have, venturing into the sewers, just like anyone, resident or not, would have crossing into the depths of mantis territory.

There needs to be a place within the city, that is SCARY on an OOC *and* IC level. The only places right now that I know of like that, are restricted access and they're only scary because a soldier subdued you and dragged you there, or a Templar invited you to walk with them there.

Summary:

Scary location within the city needed. Place where mothers tell their kids the bogeyman will come out from and drag them to if they misbehave.
Templars need to be more *visibly* active to the entirety of the northern playerbase, not just to the favored citizens PCs.

[Cutthroat]

Not really related to the rest of my post, but http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,24087.0.html contains a bunch of stuff about Tuluki templars, Muk, and stuff, that might be better off in some more readily available format.

Okay. That aside, actual IG stuff, nothing to do with docs or whatever...

Those tattoos. I feel like if I make a Tuluki PC, simply having those citizenship tattoos greatly restricts my available options for a character. A person without tattoos can try and pass as being from any number of places, and mingle with others in the world without too much difficulty. The moment my character is seen to be Tuluki, however? Instant distrust and/or outright hostility from certain quarters. Which is all well and good, conflict etcetera, but I feel restricted by it.

It's possible to pass as something else even with the tattoos, at least a little. It's possible to remove them (even if that's unthinkable for a loyal Tuluki). But yeah, it's a choice to be made, and even though it is restrictive, it's one of those many flavor things that makes Tuluk different from Allanak.

Barricades. What? Why? IC reasoning be damned for a moment, do these make the game more interesting or enjoyable for anyone in any sense? I had rather a good time playing an uninked PC in Tuluk once before, but not being able to go into the city's main bar? I feel bad for the Chosen who don't really have anywhere else to go regularly to interact with other PCs outside of their clan, because, well, if I play in Tuluk again, my character will hang round the Firestorm or Tooth so I can get to interact with PCs from beyond the city, who might have interesting stuff to talk about or get involved with. Which leads on to...

I think if the Sanctuary barricade was taken out and the barricades that protect the other parts of the city were left in, interaction opportunities would be better overall and the barricades would still maintain their purpose. The question really is if it makes IC sense, but in my opinion it does since it's the first tavern the typical traveler sees upon entering the city.

The culture of keeping very, very quiet about everything. I've had three PCs in Tuluk who have found out bits of information of the sort which the templarate would deem irregular and inappropriate. Only in one instance did that come from a regular conversation between my PC and another; that person was summarily told to shut up. Tuluki taverns are the most boring thing in-game -- you have to go behind closed doors to hope to get to talk about anything at all beyond "so, hey, great weather today". Why have the main gathering places for many PCs be boring?

I'm not sure that this is really the problem players make it out to be. It is still possible to be conflicting and controversial in taverns. It's behind closed doors where these conflicts are planned out and these controversies are fabricated. Political play in Tuluk is not that much different than political play in Allanak. And to be in the know in Tuluk requires some more agency than what is given by merely being a citizen. It does usually take being a partisan or employee of one House or another to get into things. Again, not that much more different than Allanak.

regarding sponsored roles

I also enjoyed Tuluk more when the Lirathans were Lirathans, but left the Heart more often to interact visibly with the playerbase.
...
Templars need to be more *visibly* active to the entirety of the northern playerbase, not just to the favored citizens PCs.

One of the biggest strengths of Tuluk IMO is that the noble and Templar documentation allows them to be far more publicly accessible than they are in Allanak. On a basic gameplay level, that fosters interaction greatly. Sponsored role PCs in Tuluk should really take advantage of that as much as possible.

regarding Undertuluk/scary places

Not a bad idea, but new scary places would probably have to be added ICly. Seeing Undertuluk get drained somehow would be nice I suppose.

[Barsook]

To Lizzie, would doing something to/in the Old Quarter of the city do anything for the city?

[Harmless]

Speaking hypothetically, I'd consider making a character in Tuluk if I had some way to know what role would be good there. But, with IC events being what they are, I have no idea what's going on up there, so I am unsure if any concept I come up with will have a unique niche or role or use to others.

This is just speaking hypothetically, to suggest a possibility for the die-down.

Not sure if I am following you on this one. 

"If you had some way of knowing what role would be good there..."
There are three noble houses open and every GMH has operations up there; you can also be somewhat (or entirely) independent...or join the militia.  In the subset of all of the above, you can also play a shadow artist or a bard if you're a citizen.  Those are the "roles" that are there.  What role would be good?  A better question might be "what role do you want to play?"  If you truly were hypothetically trying to figure out where you'd be useful in a new role, wouldn't an unsaturated environment be the place to find a new role?

"IC events being what they are, you have no idea what is going on up there"
See the history page.  Read the rumor boards.  Extrapolate.  The assumption that everything happening in Tuluk happens behind the scenes is a bit overrated when you consider that everything on the history page occurring in the past few IC years was witnessed in public places by PCs and plopped on rumor boards. 

"Unsure if any concept you come up with will have a unique niche or role or use to others"
If the concern laid out is "the population appears to be lower than usual," one might hope that any role you pick would have a unique niche or role or use to others!

I have my doubts that "not sure what is going on up there" is high on the list of variables affecting this, but if it is a factor, it will be resolved soon.

Thanks for replying to my thoughts, Nyr. You actually took my post and understood it well.

I guess the best plan for anyone making a new character in Tuluk who has any of my concerns above is to just make a general concept, one that is malleable -- I wouldn't be setting my sights on a specific GMH or noble house from the get-go, and just try to make the personality and background adaptable. No pre-set enemies or friends, etc.

[slvrmoontiger]

Those tattoos. I feel like if I make a Tuluki PC, simply having those citizenship tattoos greatly restricts my available options for a character. A person without tattoos can try and pass as being from any number of places, and mingle with others in the world without too much difficulty. The moment my character is seen to be Tuluki, however? Instant distrust and/or outright hostility from certain quarters. Which is all well and good, conflict etcetera, but I feel restricted by it.

Okay, tattoos if anything increases the options for your character. They allow you to function as a citizen and be open to any clan in Tuluk. How exactly is that restricting? A majority of the people keep saying they want clans in Tuluk that are busy, and then you say I don't want to be part of a Tuluki clan. How does this work? If they are restrictive, you have a great option DON'T get tattoos. Don't make your character a citizen of Tuluk. Function in Tuluk as a non-citizen. Don't complain about the tattoos its really a pitiful excuse.

Barricades. What? Why? IC reasoning be damned for a moment, do these make the game more interesting or enjoyable for anyone in any sense? I had rather a good time playing an uninked PC in Tuluk once before, but not being able to go into the city's main bar? I feel bad for the Chosen who don't really have anywhere else to go regularly to interact with other PCs outside of their clan, because, well, if I play in Tuluk again, my character will hang round the Firestorm or Tooth so I can get to interact with PCs from beyond the city, who might have interesting stuff to talk about or get involved with. Which leads on to...

Again I don't see how this makes any sense. You can't say IC reasoning be damned for a moment for the following reasons: 1) The barricades are completely about IC reasons and 2) You can't say IC reasoning be damned and then talk about how IC'ly this will set your character back. Come on what's the real point to that statement?

The culture of keeping very, very quiet about everything. I've had three PCs in Tuluk who have found out bits of information of the sort which the templarate would deem irregular and inappropriate. Only in one instance did that come from a regular conversation between my PC and another; that person was summarily told to shut up. Tuluki taverns are the most boring thing in-game -- you have to go behind closed doors to hope to get to talk about anything at all beyond "so, hey, great weather today". Why have the main gathering places for many PCs be boring?

Secretiveness is the Tuluki culture. The cultures between Tuluk and Allanak are like the differences between daytime with both moons full in the sky and night time with no moons at all and a fierce sandstorm surrounding you. Its one thing to say you don't understand the Tuluki culture. Its another to completely berate it because you don't understand it. Play a character, talk to bards, learn the history of Tuluk. Talk to some of the Chosen and learn their family history. Don't just assume because everything is different it is wrong.

Few players leads to fewer players. That's self-evident. Just as larger numbers of players tend to attract more players, since there's more stuff to do.

This I completely agree with. But also I think a lot of the problems with fewer players in Tuluk is because half of the posts on the GDB here talk about how great The Byn is and how its the end all be all for playing in Tuluk. Yeah, sure for some players it is great. For others like me, who despise schedules, orders, being told when and how to do everything every part of the day its horrible. I wonder how many new players come aboard and join The Byn and get annoyed, frustrated, and bored by it and never come back, all because they saw a bunch of people singing its praises on the GDB.

Closure of the arena's training grounds. What did this achieve? Tuluk is still the very safest environment around for combat characters to go and skill up. And everyone can beat up gurth and gortoks all day long without needing to involve another PC, whereas the arena at least fostered interaction.
[/qoute]

Arm isn't about skilling up. It isn't about leveling or being the best there is. This is a roleplaying MUD if all you're doing is killing stuff all day and night long or sparring all the time, then I recommend a hack & slash MUD for you. You really don't belong on Arm and the documents clearly state that. Maybe the reason you are so opposed to Tuluk and so confused is because all you want to do is focus on your skills. Tuluk is about art, culture, and a deeply seated history that binds the citizens together. Again I encourage creating a character and finding out about this IG, roleplay a little (after all that's what Arm is supposed to be for).

Sponsored roles must be ... something? I don't know what. But with a few notable exceptions, and those deserve some sort of prize for their sheer patience, Tuluk-bound sponsored roles seem to have a fairly short lifespan.

Allanak doesn't have a shortened lifespan. I guess not sponsored roles in Allanak can kill any non-sponsored roll just for looking at them the wrong way. I think turnover is realistic. Its a harsh world for commoner and noble alike. Perhaps the other reason for this is because nobles in Tuluk ACTUALLY get out and do things. They don't just sit around drinking and insulting commoners all day long.

Not down to anything specific, but I had a go at a Tuluki citizen not so very long ago, and I tried so very hard to engage other PCs with that character, and just... couldn't. I'm not the best player ever, and could probably have spiced that character up some more, but I have a feeling that it would have gone fantastically in Allanak. Tuluk, though? No such luck. 

I wonder why this would have happened. I have never had a problem with engaging other characters in Tuluk with any character I've had. Sure not everyone is friendly, in fact some have been down right hostile to my character(s), but its still interaction.

[slvrmoontiger]

Ugh sorry for my last post, it got confused with the quotes towards the end, I'm not sure how or why. The edit function never works for me. I hope people will be able to figure it out. Sorry again.

[Barsook]

Few players leads to fewer players. That's self-evident. Just as larger numbers of players tend to attract more players, since there's more stuff to do.

This I completely agree with. But also I think a lot of the problems with fewer players in Tuluk is because half of the posts on the GDB here talk about how great The Byn is and how its the end all be all for playing in Tuluk. Yeah, sure for some players it is great. For others like me, who despise schedules, orders, being told when and how to do everything every part of the day its horrible. I wonder how many new players come aboard and join The Byn and get annoyed, frustrated, and bored by it and never come back, all because they saw a bunch of people singing its praises on the GDB.

I agree here.  I think the lack leadership is the issue in Tuluk.

[slvrmoontiger]

Are you talking PC leadership or Staff leadership, Barsook?

[Barsook]

PC leadership.

[Lizzie]

To Lizzie, would doing something to/in the Old Quarter of the city do anything for the city?

My post wasn't to do anything to the city. It's to encourage an increased interest in *playing* in the city. Anything that restores that "OMGWTF" factor to Tuluk, that used to exist and no longer exists, will improve things.

[Barsook]

To Lizzie, would doing something to/in the Old Quarter of the city do anything for the city?

My post wasn't to do anything to the city. It's to encourage an increased interest in *playing* in the city. Anything that restores that "OMGWTF" factor to Tuluk, that used to exist and no longer exists, will improve things.

Oh.  I guess I missread your post.

[Nyr]

Those tattoos. I feel like if I make a Tuluki PC, simply having those citizenship tattoos greatly restricts my available options for a character. A person without tattoos can try and pass as being from any number of places, and mingle with others in the world without too much difficulty. The moment my character is seen to be Tuluki, however? Instant distrust and/or outright hostility from certain quarters. Which is all well and good, conflict etcetera, but I feel restricted by it.

Fair enough.  However, the sword cuts both ways.

If you're rolling up a Tuluki with the intention of playing outside of Tuluk in a major independent capacity, you're gonna have a tough time.
If you're rolling up an Allanaki with the intention of playing inside Tuluk in a major independent capacity, you're gonna have a tough time.

Otherwise, you can roll with a GMH and travel the world and have that distrust be part of your roleplay.
You can roll in the T'zai Byn and travel the world and have that distrust be part of your roleplay.

And you can always play a Tuluki in Tuluk doing Tuluki things, or an Allanaki in Allanak doing Allanaki things.

I can understand that you might find it restrictive, but restrictions that generate conflict tend to make roles more interesting.

Barricades. What? Why? IC reasoning be damned for a moment, do these make the game more interesting or enjoyable for anyone in any sense? I had rather a good time playing an uninked PC in Tuluk once before, but not being able to go into the city's main bar? I feel bad for the Chosen who don't really have anywhere else to go regularly to interact with other PCs outside of their clan, because, well, if I play in Tuluk again, my character will hang round the Firestorm or Tooth so I can get to interact with PCs from beyond the city, who might have interesting stuff to talk about or get involved with. Which leads on to...

Yes, we think it makes the game more interesting and more enjoyable because it fosters conflict and corruption.  As hinted here (and elsewhere) it is leading to other things.  For instance, before, you could roll up an Allanaki and go to Tuluk and simply live there with no conflict whatsoever.  Now...you are restricted.  You might be seen as something of a second-class citizen.  You might be shaken down more by the templarate or the militia.  You pretty much have to find a job with a GMH if you want anywhere to stay to call your own, and even then it's a bunk. This generates roleplay and conflict.  Having safety does not do that.

By the way, Chosen can go to other bars.  It isn't Allanak.  They do interact somewhat more with the common rabble, and the Firestorm (or the Tooth) are both valid locations for a Tuluki noble to visit.  Having one bar location to hang out at that isn't available to the nasty southerner rabble...

...sounds sort of like an even more restrictive location in Allanak, where only the nobility can get in.

The culture of keeping very, very quiet about everything. I've had three PCs in Tuluk who have found out bits of information of the sort which the templarate would deem irregular and inappropriate. Only in one instance did that come from a regular conversation between my PC and another; that person was summarily told to shut up. Tuluki taverns are the most boring thing in-game -- you have to go behind closed doors to hope to get to talk about anything at all beyond "so, hey, great weather today". Why have the main gathering places for many PCs be boring?

I swear I just wrote about this above.

Closure of the arena's training grounds. What did this achieve? Tuluk is still the very safest environment around for combat characters to go and skill up. And everyone can beat up gurth and gortoks all day long without needing to involve another PC, whereas the arena at least fostered interaction.

The Arena was never intended to be a sparring shitfest for all comers, which is what it turned into.  It was intended to be training grounds for actual Arena events.  We put a stop to it because it was ridiculous.  We've also been told that Tuluk is the very safest environment, as you've said, and I believe we have someone working on a solution to that right now as well.  Be careful what you wish for.

Sponsored roles must be ... something? I don't know what. But with a few notable exceptions, and those deserve some sort of prize for their sheer patience, Tuluk-bound sponsored roles seem to have a fairly short lifespan.

I've written about this already as well.

Not down to anything specific, but I had a go at a Tuluki citizen not so very long ago, and I tried so very hard to engage other PCs with that character, and just... couldn't. I'm not the best player ever, and could probably have spiced that character up some more, but I have a feeling that it would have gone fantastically in Allanak. Tuluk, though? No such luck. 

I'm sorry you had a bad experience.  However, this is the first we've heard about it.  It is very difficult to go back and analyze what happened if you are not engaged with your clan staff or a clan in general.  Not that either of those things would mean you'd have a better time, but dialogue with staff might have meant the difference in having staff enforce the virtual world better in a certain situation, whatever it might be.

[Nyr]

My two sids:

I enjoyed Tuluk more when the Warrens were perceived as seedier than they are perceived. I also enjoyed Tuluk more when the Lirathans were Lirathans, but left the Heart more often to interact visibly with the playerbase. I also enjoyed Tuluk MUCH more when the UnderTuluk existed, because it was "the bogeyman" of Tuluk. On a world-reaching level, Allanak is the enemy. No doubt about that, I'm cool with it. But on a day-to-day level, what is Tuluk's antagonist? What is the antagonist that the players know, that their characters know, that they can roleplay out, in the open and in public? Nothing.

A rival House.  A rival bard.  A rival anything.  Or we can go with the really easy answer that requires no work:  nothing.  There are no antagonists.

You can't talk about oppression, even though you're surely being oppressed. You can't talk about magicks, you can't talk about assassinations, you can't talk about - well - pretty much anything significant. So bar talk ends up being totally meaningless idle chitchat and veiled innuendo that seems more like "inside jokes" to anyone who isn't in on it, creating resentment and disinterest on an OOC level as well as an IC level.

This has been brought up already as something to address; if you have something new to add, can you discuss it perhaps with that in mind?

I would love to see the ugly underbelly rise JUST enough to make sure everyone is aware that it exists, while keeping it ugly, and keeping it the underbelly. Not sanctioning it like they did with the Shadow Artists.

*waves hand*

"They" are right over here; "they" requested this thread.

Hi, Nyr here, I play an administrator in Tuluk but you might know me by other roles in the past. 

The shadow artists were always "sanctioned" whatever, even back when you nostalgically loved (or say that you loved) the city.  And even then they aren't the underbelly.

Add a new section to the Warrens that isn't pretty and filled with lovely statues and NPCs who make gorgeous crafted things or whatever else, that is horrifying to those who don't live there - and is probably scary to those who do live there. I don't mean just on an IC level. I mean new players, and players new to the area - the *players* should have a gut-dropping experience, if they mistakenly or purposefully wandered in. Just like you have in the Rinth, and just like a rinthi would have if he's from the east side daring to cross to the west, and vice versa, just like anyone -rinthi or otherwise - would have, venturing into the sewers, just like anyone, resident or not, would have crossing into the depths of mantis territory.

The Warrens is by lore and documentation where 75% of the city lives; unless you're suggesting it should be a cesspit of squalor equivalent to the 'rinth (which you seem to be doing), it's going to have some gradient between scum and the city-equivalent of middle class.  Building in some more stuff there might come up in the future, but this is not a primary goal at this time.

There needs to be a place within the city, that is SCARY on an OOC *and* IC level. The only places right now that I know of like that, are restricted access and they're only scary because a soldier subdued you and dragged you there, or a Templar invited you to walk with them there.

Now, on that note, we sort of have something like that in mind.  It's probably not what you are thinking, but hopefully it will come across in an interesting way.

Summary:

Scary location within the city needed. Place where mothers tell their kids the bogeyman will come out from and drag them to if they misbehave.
Templars need to be more *visibly* active to the entirety of the northern playerbase, not just to the favored citizens PCs.

Summary from me:  If you had a bad experience in Tuluk and are only now voicing your concerns about it when you did nothing of the sort while playing there, you haven't done much to help review the problem as it was ongoing.  Sure, you've pointed it out now, and that helps, but it's far more frustrating than being able to address something as it occurs.

[Delusion]

The last point wasn't awfully important. I had RL going on for periods of playing the character and my playtimes got kind of intermittent-- nor did I have any grand schemes for the character (typically, if my PC's background indicates that they aren't the sort to have any big plans, they tend to, you know, not have any big plans).

The arena, for me, was a way to see and get to interact with other PCs that I almost never got to otherwise.

I don't think the Arboretum's really comparable. Allanaki nobles don't seem to use it much, preferring to instead adjourn to their estates and stuff, unless they're going and meeting other nobles there frequently, but that's going kind of off-topic by now.

[Nyr]

Few players leads to fewer players. That's self-evident. Just as larger numbers of players tend to attract more players, since there's more stuff to do.

This I completely agree with. But also I think a lot of the problems with fewer players in Tuluk is because half of the posts on the GDB here talk about how great The Byn is and how its the end all be all for playing in Tuluk. Yeah, sure for some players it is great. For others like me, who despise schedules, orders, being told when and how to do everything every part of the day its horrible. I wonder how many new players come aboard and join The Byn and get annoyed, frustrated, and bored by it and never come back, all because they saw a bunch of people singing its praises on the GDB.

I agree here.  I think the lack leadership is the issue in Tuluk.

You mean PC leadership...in the Byn...in Tuluk?  The organization that is (still at present) rather persona non grata in Tuluk?

Yes, there is an absence of the Byn in Tuluk.  And their PC leadership.

[Barsook]

Few players leads to fewer players. That's self-evident. Just as larger numbers of players tend to attract more players, since there's more stuff to do.

This I completely agree with. But also I think a lot of the problems with fewer players in Tuluk is because half of the posts on the GDB here talk about how great The Byn is and how its the end all be all for playing in Tuluk. Yeah, sure for some players it is great. For others like me, who despise schedules, orders, being told when and how to do everything every part of the day its horrible. I wonder how many new players come aboard and join The Byn and get annoyed, frustrated, and bored by it and never come back, all because they saw a bunch of people singing its praises on the GDB.

I agree here.  I think the lack leadership is the issue in Tuluk.

You mean PC leadership...in the Byn...in Tuluk?  The organization that is (still at present) rather persona non grata in Tuluk?

Yes, there is an absence of the Byn in Tuluk.  And their PC leadership.

Not the Byn...just in general PC leadership.

Or maybe my playtimes are shit and I don't get that much player to player interaction.  or I don't where to look.

[long live miley cyrus]

We've also been told that Tuluk is the very safest environment, as you've said, and I believe we have someone working on a solution to that right now as well.  Be careful what you wish for.

I suppose my only complaint is being usually completely in the dark when playing a subsistence-level, no-politics indie. Go non-humans and this could become a permanent state of living without any effort on your part. I'm glad to hear the atmosphere is getting some fresh toppings.

I know, I know. "Don't expect anything in other people's plotz without some effort." What it is is I'm spoiled on the relatively open flow of information and events that is available to uninvolved indies outside of Tuluk as opposed to inside. And the very nature of Tuluk could make even rare instances of this really cool. Like a Templar making some Kuraci guy get off his stool after telling the bar that X person died to Y, and 'correcting' him that X person died to Z instead, or that X person sounded like a figment of his imagination and he should be careful because this bar's wine is quite strong, even though they both know that half the people at the tavern saw that guy die.

[Nyr]

Not the Byn...just in general PC leadership.

Yeah, fuck THOSE guys, am I right?

(edit to add:  I'm being sarcastic, just pointing out that it really isn't good form to blame people that ARE playing sponsored roles when you are not)