Catching up, Part 2: Tuluk

[Taven]

Also, in my recent post some of the links went strange places that they weren't supposed to. I have fixed this, so that you can actually read what it says that they are linking to. If I missed anything, please let me know.

[Kryos]

I will say, from a purely OOC perspective, having attainable but difficult goals for players is a *good* thing.  Its a quarter of people who play these types of games, or more when you realistically look at the blending of play styles, who enjoy having objectives such as that to look forward to.  I'm using both dated and modern research on player behavior as a base.  Helping do a lit review and the pleasure of helping build a game to study such things for a PhD thesis, makes this kind of discussion quite intriguing for me.


With the Grey Hunt's absence, I feel compelled to ask what is going to be placed in to replace what's been removed in terms of potential objectives for players?  


http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/6474/personality_and_play_styles_a_.php?print=1 (for a decent look at what I'm rambling about, though he's a far cry from a unified theory!)

[Jherlen]

I'm not sure there needs to be an explicit "we took away the Grey Hunt, here's a new Lofty Near-Impossible Goal" replacement type thing that needs to happen. That's a great question, though, on a broader topic: what should PCs be able to look forward to in terms of achievement (social, mercantile, badassery) in Tuluk, in Allanak, and elsewhere? Personally I can think of plenty of Big Goals to aim for that are doable, with and without staff help, but I wonder what player perception is.

[Taven]

I will say, from a purely OOC perspective, having attainable but difficult goals for players is a *good* thing.  Its a quarter of people who play these types of games, or more when you realistically look at the blending of play styles, who enjoy having objectives such as that to look forward to.  I'm using both dated and modern research on player behavior as a base.  Helping do a lit review and the pleasure of helping build a game to study such things for a PhD thesis, makes this kind of discussion quite intriguing for me.

With the Grey Hunt's absence, I feel compelled to ask what is going to be placed in to replace what's been removed in terms of potential objectives for players?

I feel like you could almost make your own thread for the motivation of players, and what they can do for long-term goals, and what opportunities are available to them.

In terms of the Grey Hunt specifically, is not having the ability to make your PC become a noble really going to impact players that much? I think there's only a few PCs that participate to begin with. Those that do win the Grey Hunt usually seem to store pretty quickly. My knowledge may be off here, but historically, I only know of two PC Hlum winners. Of those, I think they both stored.

[Cutthroat]

It might be interesting to see something new and unique for characters to go for that's on the same level as a Grey Hunt win, but it's hard to think of something that makes IC sense. Some sort of honorific for accomplished characters granted by higher powers (not necessarily as high as the Sun King) might be reasonable for a setting like Tuluk, though it's debatable whether a commoner will ever get that kind of attention considering the way the Hlum went out.

As for what already exists, it depends on the character, really... I think achiever-types have a lot to still go for in the game, and Tuluk more specifically. Some Tuluk-specific goals and objectives for commoners would be:

Become a...
- master thief or assassin.
- Bard in Poet's Circle.
- Descending Sun champion.
- high-ranking member of His Legions or Surif House.
- successful licensed indie merchant.

Create...
- a piece of visual artwork.
- a play for the Uaptal Theater.

[Ourla]

.
- a play for the Uaptal Theater.

Omg.  Why have I never thought of this? Brilliant.

[Quirk]

It's probably better to have commoners entirely separated from the highborn.  As I mentioned above, perhaps the facade was too well-constructed.  For it to work, the underbelly of Tuluk had to bleed through.  What could (or should?) have been seen in Tuluk lite was that the Hlum were nothing more than pawns in an ongoing game of making those without power think they had some or could have some so that they wouldn't focus on their lack of power and influence (as well as the plight of their day-to-day situations).  I think that in the past, the "real" part of Tuluk (the part that gets shit done) had rarely come to the surface to make the pleasant decor seem as chilling as it is meant to be.  Maybe it didn't work that well before, but since "new shit has come to light", perhaps this iteration of Tuluk will see some more of that.

I find this really interesting.

My experience of Tuluk is very old now, but I used to play there a lot, particularly in the years following the Liberation. There are a couple of things which led into the "pleasant decor" as the norm early on, I think.

Firstly, after the Liberation the city was flooded by veterans who'd fought together and who genuinely were friendly to one another and any new citizens they encountered; their enemy was Allanak, not each other. I think perhaps an issue with subtlety becoming Tuluk's motif was that there was no jarring change going with it that took the city from this friendliness to something sinister. Instead, anything that might have soured the public mood was kept very quiet, and disapproval of clumsy conflicts made conflict less likely in general.

Secondly, while the 'Rinth exists always as a reminder of the diseased underside of Allanak, UnderTuluk seemed much less successful. When I played there, it was rough terrain, hard to explore, with very few other PCs present. The crudest and poorest element of PC society therefore never really got a chance to make their presence felt in Tuluk in my time. More than that, the resource-rich surroundings made it easy for even the relatively unskilled PC to prosper - it was easy and safe compared to the struggle a new player could face in Allanak without clan aid - and so there was little feeling of want and deprivation. I think this led to a place where for many it was easy to imagine the normal Tuluki VNPC as fairly prosperous, at least far more so than in Allanak, and the "plight of their day-to-day situations" wasn't thought of very much. Also, subtlety being the guiding principle may have also been an issue here - subtlety isn't something that tends to be associated with the starving, dirty and wretched.

I think it's hard to have roles which are meant to appease the downtrodden work unless people are very aware of who the downtrodden are. Maybe Tuluki grit became more of a feature after I left, but I'm getting the sense that PCs are perhaps still living in a bubble on the side of the city as it was meant to be?

[Nyr]

Underbelly of Tuluk =/= Undertuluk in this case.  I'm not referring to a criminal area or poor districts or an area of lawlessness...I'm referring to culture.

What I mean is that there's an underbelly to Tuluk that was so often covered up that it almost did not exist at all, and to many players or PCs, it did not exist at all.  Maybe it didn't exist at all in a real sense.  If all you see is the well-polished exterior and your glimpses behind the curtain show you very little at all, you are likely to think that there's nothing to Tuluk but EZ-MODE.  Adversity never comes except when you try really hard to make enemies.  What we are aiming to do is to change that so that the things behind the curtain are frightening and intriguing and give good reason for the forward-facing facade.  We are also hoping to have more opportunities for sending messages that are a bit less subtle than in times past. 

As an example...an independent merchant is screwing over someone with serious connections?  Something can be done. 

Before:
Disappear him.  Sure, the problem ceases to exist, but by virtue of the word, the problem also doesn't send a message or a warning to others, does it?
Beat him up.  Well, you'd have to find a time and a place to do that, and he could then report you to the authorities, and you'd have some difficulty explaining that one...
Threaten him.  Subtle or not, you can tell him to stop.  Of course, if he doesn't, you have to now back that up with something.

Future:
Stay tuned.

[Quirk]

Underbelly of Tuluk =/= Undertuluk in this case.  I'm not referring to a criminal area or poor districts or an area of lawlessness...I'm referring to culture.

Mmm. I think I got an additional nuance out of your original post that you may not have meant, or not considered as a significant part of it.

You spoke of the Hlum as a distraction from commoner powerlessness, and from "the plight of their day-to-day situation", which rather suggests that the day to day situation is not altogether cushy. My point was that from a PC viewpoint, the day to day life was cushy, on multiple levels, from the richness of resources to the comparative lack of representation of the poorer elements. A city that focuses on art and appearances while most of its citizens scrape an abject existence is applying make-up to an emaciated face with running sores. However, if the citizens are instead uniformly well-fed and dressed in finery, the impact of art and appearance is entirely different, and the impression instead is one of a wealthy, cultured society.

We as players mostly live in democratic countries where, for most of us, enacting any significant political change will be difficult to impossible, and overturning big established commercial interests is likely beyond our power. All but a few manage to live with this without believing our society is oppressive, because our day to day lives are somewhat comfortable. If all anyone sees of Tuluk is effectively a comfortable middle class in isolation, and the machinations of the government and commercial powers are largely hidden, it will take a great many sinister underpinnings to make the culture that grows out of that aware of its powerlessness, because for most of these PCs they are not powerless in ways they have to care about. They are powerless in the same ways they are used to being powerless in their day to day lives. The "game of making those without power think they [have] some" only works if those without power are yearning for it.

Considering the impact of wealth further, poverty means having to rely on others, and being susceptible to both their whims and their fortunes. If someone you rely on is punished, you feel it, and it may jeopardise your own survival. A little oppression in a poor society goes a long way and affects many. If however everyone is rich, a single act of oppression has a less chilling effect, and the target and their friends may feel possessed of sufficient resources to fight back.

I think a grave issue with Tuluk's rebirth at the beginning was in seeing it as having a homogenous culture, a template that could be applied to the whole city. Within any city I'm familiar with, the culture shifts markedly from one area of the city to another, and the wealth present in these areas has a giant impact on the manifestation of that culture. The areas that Tuluki play was centred around were places for the rich and well-connected. The Sanctuary became the default meeting place. Independents became wealthy easily, and could mingle with the cream of the city. As a consequence, the notion of Tuluk as a city of art and subtlety didn't have to bear close contrast with the reality of the downtrodden VNPC commoner, and any erection of smoke and mirrors to hide the powerlessness of commoners was fanciful decoration no-one need pay much attention to.

To summarise: I do not believe you can talk of "culture" without addressing the distribution of wealth. The poor must at times be forceful to meet their basic needs, while the rich can put up with having their desires thwarted. If Tuluk is not visibly poor and its PCs have pockets full of coin, then it will need in actuality to be much more oppressive than Allanak just to achieve the same effect.

Edit:
And to add, just to make it very clear, I was not bringing up UnderTuluk as an example of Tuluk's underbelly, but as an example of the narrow social base of Tuluk, which I feel cushions the "chilling" view of that underbelly as I've detailed above. I appreciate I didn't make that obvious in my last post.

[Nyr]

You spoke of the Hlum as a distraction from commoner powerlessness, and from "the plight of their day-to-day situation", which rather suggests that the day to day situation is not altogether cushy. My point was that from a PC viewpoint, the day to day life was cushy, on multiple levels, from the richness of resources to the comparative lack of representation of the poorer elements. A city that focuses on art and appearances while most of its citizens scrape an abject existence is applying make-up to an emaciated face with running sores. However, if the citizens are instead uniformly well-fed and dressed in finery, the impact of art and appearance is entirely different, and the impression instead is one of a wealthy, cultured society.

From a PC viewpoint 10 years ago, yes, probably.  As you stated here though you haven't played in Tuluk even after the work done in the middle part of last decade.  Do I think Tuluk is where it needs to be now, no.  Do I think it's as starkly "everyone is rich" as you are describing, not quite.  It's somewhere in between the two extremes of what you're describing as the current state and what I'm hoping will be the ideal state, and we're on the way to the latter.  I don't think people need to scrape by every day to make ends meet in order to play characters that are locked in a gritty world.  I think we have other means at our disposal to make that...interesting.

If all anyone sees of Tuluk is effectively a comfortable middle class in isolation, and the machinations of the government and commercial powers are largely hidden, it will take a great many sinister underpinnings to make the culture that grows out of that aware of its powerlessness, because for most of these PCs they are not powerless in ways they have to care about.

But that is what has been happening in Tuluk in the past two months.

1627 (Year 10 Age 22)

    Rumors emerge from Allanak that a team of spies in deep cover were successful in plotting sabotage against Tuluki forces during the lead up to the battle at Tyn Dashra, with whispers that the destruction of Isar's Tree might have been one of their prime targets.

    In Tuluk, at a public celebration, High Precentor Ardith Lyksae steps down from his position to become Precentor of the Jihaen Order. A relatively unknown Lirathan by the name of Oralia Negean takes the mantle of High Precentor. Later in the proceedings, an Allanaki templar and soldier are executed publicly by the hand of the High Precentor and the Precentor of the Jihaen Order, respectively.

    Over the next month, rumors of widespread disappearances spread throughout Tuluk.

In other words, Tuluk begins cracking down on its citizenry; the stuff on the history page doesn't cover a lot of what actually happened.

1628 (Year 11 Age 22)

    In a ruthless act of suppression, the newly ascendant order of Lirathu casts the Hlum nobility as traitors and collaborators. The Templarate proceeds to erase the Grey Hunt from Tuluki society and eradicates the Hlum Nobility, burning the estate to the ground. Those found to "remember" or mention the Hlum or Grey Hunt are dealt with quietly and efficiently by the Templarate.

Tuluk wiped out something that was a tradition.  It didn't just say "oh they're all dead and traitors."  It said, "they don't exist.  They never existed.  You understand that, right?  In fact, after we get done talking about them being gone and how you're supposed to know that, you're not going to discuss them being around in the first place, because if you do...you know what will happen."  The implication is that they can do that to anyone if they can do that to people that were considered to be (at least on some levels) on a part with low-ranking Surif nobility, even if they were "commoner" upstarts...they were well-known and well-connected commoner upstarts.

They are powerless in the same ways they are used to being powerless in their day to day lives. The "game of making those without power think they [have] some" only works if those without power are yearning for it.

That was part of the problem I laid out, I thought.  I said (emphasis mine):

What could (or should?) have been seen in Tuluk lite was that the Hlum were nothing more than pawns in an ongoing game of making those without power think they had some or could have some so that they wouldn't focus on their lack of power and influence (as well as the plight of their day-to-day situations).

It could have been seen that way, but it was not (either not implemented with this in mind, or not reinforced well enough with world reaction).  I feel that it should have been seen that way in my view because I like that view, but that view has been influenced by months and months of discussion with staff and review of the issues in the area of Tuluk.  I don't think it actually was that way in implementation, no.

Considering the impact of wealth further, poverty means having to rely on others, and being susceptible to both their whims and their fortunes. If someone you rely on is punished, you feel it, and it may jeopardise your own survival. A little oppression in a poor society goes a long way and affects many. If however everyone is rich, a single act of oppression has a less chilling effect, and the target and their friends may feel possessed of sufficient resources to fight back.

Right.  Though I'd argue that the right single act of oppression can be effective.

I think a grave issue with Tuluk's rebirth at the beginning was in seeing it as having a homogenous culture, a template that could be applied to the whole city. Within any city I'm familiar with, the culture shifts markedly from one area of the city to another, and the wealth present in these areas has a giant impact on the manifestation of that culture. The areas that Tuluki play was centred around were places for the rich and well-connected. The Sanctuary became the default meeting place. Independents became wealthy easily, and could mingle with the cream of the city. As a consequence, the notion of Tuluk as a city of art and subtlety didn't have to bear close contrast with the reality of the downtrodden VNPC commoner, and any erection of smoke and mirrors to hide the powerlessness of commoners was fanciful decoration no-one need pay much attention to.

Right.  Though you might be overstating this a bit much.  It's not quite like what you are describing.  We're ten years beyond that even if we are changing things right now--and the areas of the city and stratus of caste/etc. would be something for farther down the road.

To summarise: I do not believe you can talk of "culture" without addressing the distribution of wealth. The poor must at times be forceful to meet their basic needs, while the rich can put up with having their desires thwarted. If Tuluk is not visibly poor and its PCs have pockets full of coin, then it will need in actuality to be much more oppressive than Allanak just to achieve the same effect.

Exactly.  You've pointed out two things that can be used to address that problem.

[Jherlen]

To summarise: I do not believe you can talk of "culture" without addressing the distribution of wealth. The poor must at times be forceful to meet their basic needs, while the rich can put up with having their desires thwarted. If Tuluk is not visibly poor and its PCs have pockets full of coin, then it will need in actuality to be much more oppressive than Allanak just to achieve the same effect.

Exactly.  You've pointed out two things that can be used to address that problem.

The concept of a Tuluk that's even more oppressive than Allanak is an interesting one to me. Can we unpack that a bit? Because, wow. I don't think that was the perception of Tuluk from the last decade or so of play. I'd love to see the 1984, "Big Brother" style stuff come out in a big big way.

The problem is, how do we bring that into the game? If you look at both cities from a lens of how commoners are oppressed, here's what's mostly true in both cities (I'm sure counterexamples exist to some of these but by and large they hold true):

• Templars have to be obeyed without question; challenging a templar as a commoner = death
• Nobility are your betters, you are expected to know they are SO much better than you and act like it at all times
• If you speak out publicly against either of the above groups, You Are Going To Have a Bad Time
• Laws are typically only enforced if the criminal is caught right in the act or if the victim can make a templar/soldier give a damn after the fact. This usually requires bribery.

The list of ways I see Tuluk more oppressive than Allanak right now:

• Magickers are executed without exception; in Allanak they're permitted to live (this one doesn't really oppress the non-mages in Tuluk though)
• Castes are kept separate; commoners can't become concubines of Chosen or dream of having bastard children for a Chosen House. (sort of oppression of dreams, but once again not of day to day life) - via palomar
• Tulukis can be told not only what to do by templars, but also what they can/cannot say or remember. -- via Blur

But here's where Allanak seems more oppressive:

• Spice is completely and totally banned; just having it on your character is liable to get you killed for smuggling.
• Failing to bow when addressing a templar/noble, or even just talking to them without being addressed first, is a risky business; in Tuluk you're not in as much danger striking up a conversation with a Chosen or Faithful.
• In Allanak thieves of any sort, whether very skillful or not, are usually Going To Have A Bad Time if they get caught; in Tuluk thievery does not feel like something you'll get executed for unless you are being incredibly stupid about it. Successful thieves in Tuluk are admired for their artistry; successful thieves in Allanak are just more hated than bad thieves.

THESE LISTS ARE NOT AN ATTEMPT TO BE COMPREHENSIVE; please feel free to add to any or all of them or to disagree. I want to focus on that second list, though - what are some ways Tuluk could be more oppressive to the commoners? More oppressive even than Allanak? I have some ideas that are pretty radical, but I wanted to see what other people's thoughts were.

[palomar]

While not really oppressive, there's also the strict separation of the castes in Tuluk, which helps keeping commoners down even if it isn't a primary factor. In Allanak, commoners, nobles and templars have a bit more freedom to get intimately involved.

As for thieves etc, Tuluk exerts quite a bit of control over anyone desiring to pursue such a career. Those who try to avoid government control aren't treated well at all. As a result of that control over thieves, the templarate can afford to maintain the tradition of legal shadow artistry (which gives a little freedom to the artists, but also raises expectations on their performance).

[Molten Heart]

In terms of the Grey Hunt specifically, is not having the ability to make your PC become a noble really going to impact players that much? I think there's only a few PCs that participate to begin with. Those that do win the Grey Hunt usually seem to store pretty quickly. My knowledge may be off here, but historically, I only know of two PC Hlum winners. Of those, I think they both stored.

The Hlum cast (along with legal crime) is one thing that sets Tuluk apart and makes it unique.  I remember playing before the rebuilding of Tuluk and I heard stories about how commoners could be come nobles and how crime was (theft and assassinations) "legal" and thought it was pretty cool.  While I'm sure there is IC reasons behind it, removing things Hlum seems counter productive.  While reductive changes to the game like this one are easier, they don't do as much good for the game as additive changes (which obviously require more time/work by the staff).

Even if there are no Hlum nobles now or some other given time, the fact that the concept exists still sets Tuluk apart making it that much more unique and it's own city.  I think the idea of the Hlum embodied the spirit of the Reborn Tuluk in that someone could rise up from obscurity and be officially recognized as Somebody (even to the degree beyond that which money can buy).

[janeshephard]

While not really oppressive, there's also the strict separation of the castes in Tuluk, which helps keeping commoners down even if it isn't a primary factor. In Allanak, commoners, nobles and templars have a bit more freedom to get intimately involved.

Sorry did you mean Allanak has strict separation, but Tuluk has more freedom?

I -think- that's what you mean.

Even if there are no Hlum nobles now or some other given time, the fact that the concept exists still sets Tuluk apart making it that much more unique and it's own city.  I think the idea of the Hlum embodied the spirit of the Reborn Tuluk in that someone could rise up from obscurity and be officially recognized as Somebody (even to the degree beyond that which money can buy).

There's good IC reasons. When the Hlum and Grey Hunt existed it was difficult to get things going. Right now, AFAIK, in both cities you can still rise up the ranks of a Noble house by being employed by them. Same for GMH. There's limits though since you're not part of the family.

Then again, since when was the Zalanthan story about gaining titles? I thought it was about murder, corruption, and betrayal.

[Nyr]

I agree, it'd suck if all we were doing was making reductive changes and not adding anything to the gameworld for players to possibly pursue and enjoy with their characters.  Removing potential options must always be weighed against what those options bring (or brought) to the game.

Speaking of crime and additive changes, perhaps this will be of some interest.

[LauraMars]

While not really oppressive, there's also the strict separation of the castes in Tuluk, which helps keeping commoners down even if it isn't a primary factor. In Allanak, commoners, nobles and templars have a bit more freedom to get intimately involved.

Sorry did you mean Allanak has strict separation, but Tuluk has more freedom?

I -think- that's what you mean.

I think what he's saying is that commoners and the nobility/templarate can have sex in Allanak - a commoner can even have a templar's bastard kid.  In Tuluk they cannot - it is treason to even consider such a relationship.

[Quirk]

From a PC viewpoint 10 years ago, yes, probably.  As you stated here though you haven't played in Tuluk even after the work done in the middle part of last decade.  Do I think Tuluk is where it needs to be now, no.  Do I think it's as starkly "everyone is rich" as you are describing, not quite.  It's somewhere in between the two extremes of what you're describing as the current state and what I'm hoping will be the ideal state, and we're on the way to the latter.  I don't think people need to scrape by every day to make ends meet in order to play characters that are locked in a gritty world.  I think we have other means at our disposal to make that...interesting.

Oh, absolutely - I didn't mean to come across as describing the current situation, though undoubtedly I slipped into suggesting as much in places. It was more that your original post had what I think is a very economical and powerful summation of problems that in retrospect I think had existed in Tuluk right from the very start, and which got me thinking on how the social base of Tuluk had influenced it to be a "softer" place than Allanak.

Tuluk wiped out something that was a tradition.  It didn't just say "oh they're all dead and traitors."  It said, "they don't exist.  They never existed.  You understand that, right?  In fact, after we get done talking about them being gone and how you're supposed to know that, you're not going to discuss them being around in the first place, because if you do...you know what will happen."  The implication is that they can do that to anyone if they can do that to people that were considered to be (at least on some levels) on a part with low-ranking Surif nobility, even if they were "commoner" upstarts...they were well-known and well-connected commoner upstarts.

What I understand of the recent changes so far, I like. Most of the changes to Tuluk that I've heard have happened since I last played there have been in a direction I like, to be honest.

The direction I was coming from was that I was experiencing a bit of an epiphany. The Tuluk of ten years ago had oodles of documentation, but was somewhat flavourless compared to Allanak. I still had a lot of fun there. Other people played some great PCs, and my PCs usually had something going on. However, the menace and desperation of Allanak was missing, and there was nothing meaty to replace it. Your comment about the "real" Tuluk compared to the pleasant decor set me thinking about how the environment influenced the roleplay, and how the city-as-experienced-by-PCs differed from the city-as-envisaged-originally, and how much of this was down to gaps in that original vision, and how much was down to features in the world as built. I think in some ways the builder of commonly seen rooms has more influence on PC behaviour than the writer of docs, and code can have more influence still, because it is the code which marks the distinction between PC needs and PC wants. I'm kind of interested now how much RP you could drive just by tinkering with an RPI's economics.

[Blur]

In allanak, you are are told what to do and you'll do it or else. In Tuluk, you are not only told what to do but what you can or cannot say, what to think and even what you will believe as truth. In allanak, a noble house was considered treacherous so their estate was burned to the ground. In Tuluk, the people can no longer speak, think or believe that hlums even existed.

Correct me if I'm wrong but in allanak while murder and everything else is illegal, you can still get away with doing it right? Paying someone, or doing it yourself... so long as you don't get caught you are probably in the clear? In allanak, you have rinthers, mages and maybe even a few ex-bynners badasses riding around outside the gates, alot of places without any virtual eyes. I might be wrong but allanak templars seem like you can bribe after the fact. In Tuluk you have to ask a templar first, its culture and tradition. Its also probably not going to work out so well for you if you try it any other way. Maybe.

These are really just some of the things off the top of my head. This is not to say your tuluki character cannot do all the things someone in 'nak could, but just feels like its in more controlled regulated kind of way.

After all, in tuluk big brother is always watching.

[janeshephard]

Correct me if I'm wrong but in allanak while murder and everything else is illegal, you can still get away with doing it right? Paying someone, or doing it yourself... so long as you don't get caught you are probably in the clear? In allanak, you have rinthers, mages and maybe even a few ex-bynners badasses riding around outside the gates, alot of places without any virtual eyes. I might be wrong but allanak templars seem like you can bribe after the fact. In Tuluk you have to ask a templar first, its culture and tradition. Its also probably not going to work out so well for you if you try it any other way. Maybe.

Screwing up a licensed hit has less punishment in Tuluk than a straight up murder in Allanak.

Screwing up a murder in Tuluk has more punishment since you're spitting in the face of the established tradition.

And, sure, illegal stuff happens all the time, but people get caught all the time too.

[palomar]

While not really oppressive, there's also the strict separation of the castes in Tuluk, which helps keeping commoners down even if it isn't a primary factor. In Allanak, commoners, nobles and templars have a bit more freedom to get intimately involved.

Sorry did you mean Allanak has strict separation, but Tuluk has more freedom?

I -think- that's what you mean.

I think what he's saying is that commoners and the nobility/templarate can have sex in Allanak - a commoner can even have a templar's bastard kid.  In Tuluk they cannot - it is treason to even consider such a relationship.

Yes, I was referring to the sexual relations part.

[Blur]

Correct me if I'm wrong but in allanak while murder and everything else is illegal, you can still get away with doing it right? Paying someone, or doing it yourself... so long as you don't get caught you are probably in the clear? In allanak, you have rinthers, mages and maybe even a few ex-bynners badasses riding around outside the gates, alot of places without any virtual eyes. I might be wrong but allanak templars seem like you can bribe after the fact. In Tuluk you have to ask a templar first, its culture and tradition. Its also probably not going to work out so well for you if you try it any other way. Maybe.

Screwing up a licensed hit has less punishment in Tuluk than a straight up murder in Allanak.

Screwing up a murder in Tuluk has more punishment since you're spitting in the face of the established tradition.

And, sure, illegal stuff happens all the time, but people get caught all the time too.

In both places if you screw up badly enough that the attacker lives and can identify you, well then you are pretty screwed. In Allanak illegal stuff happens all the time and I agree people do get caught which leads to fun time for all. In Tuluk, theft and murder are often just allowed to happen,  and it is heavily regulated the Faithfuls. Anyways my point was that to me at least, this makes Tuluk is a far more oppressive place then Allanak.

Again though, from a game-play point of view characters are still able to do the same things in both places but thematically to me Tuluk is still the more oppressive state.