Shadow Artist Reformation

[Nyr]

Is this how the chart is meant to be read?

Social Rank Chart in List Form -- From Highest to Lowest

Sun King (Exalted)
High Precentor (Exalted)
Inquisitors (Exalted)
Precentors (Exalted)
Illuminated (Templar)
Head of House (Chosen)
High Templar  (Templar)
Senior Family (Chosen)
Head of House (Merchant)
Templar (Templar)
Juior Family (Chosen)
General (Legions)
Circle Leader (Artisan)
Colonel (Legions)
Master Bard (Aristan)
Captain (Legions)
Master Shadow Artist (Artisan)
Senior Merchant (Merchant)
Lieutenant (Legions)
Senior noble/templar employee (Commoner)
Bard, Journeyman Shadow Artist (Artist)
Merchant, Byn Lieutenant (Merchant)
Sergeant (Legions)
Middle noble/Templar employee (Commoner)
Ranked Legion/Artistan/Lyksaen Slaves (Slaves)
Apprentice Shadow Artist (Artist)
Junior Merchant, Byn Sargeant (Merchant)
Corporal (Legions)
Seeker, Junior noble/templar employee (Commoner)
Ranked House Slaves/Artisan slaves (Slaves)
Entry-level employees (Merchant)
Private (Legions)
Apprentice of Poet's Circle (Commoner)
Personal Noble/templar slaves (Slaves)
Independant Commoner (Commoner)
Skilled slave (Slave)
Unskilled Slave (Slave)

Not at all.

Caste matters first and foremost.  If we're talking about shadow artist stuff, let's focus on that aspect, then.

A noble has a higher caste than a commoner.  They are (by default) just plain better than commoners.  A noble can (in theory) put in for a contract against any commoner. 

In practice, we find that there are cases where a commoner's social rank is so high that it may not work out that way.  At the highest end of each caste, there tends to be bias in favor of the person with the higher rank.  Junior noble wants to take down the head of house for Nenyuk?  "Certainly, Chosen Lady.  That will be five hundred large."  The only way that kind of coin is going to be fronted is if the Head of House for that noble actually backs it and gets their House behind THEM on it, devoting such a large amount of resources to ending the life of one incredibly powerful figure.  Even then, this is such an extreme scenario that it's possible that the highest members of each caste (or even each subdivision of caste) are virtually untouchable. 

Even if you're a High Templar, you might still face difficulty taking overt or even covert action against a Bardic Circle Leader, whether it's "shadow artistry" or just "sending soldiers to round the Leader up."  The very highest members of each caste/subcaste have significant virtual resources in most cases.

Let's say the Head of House for Nenyuk wants a noble dead.  They still can't do that directly--it's not their caste.  This is an advantage caste serves.  However, if you're a noble and the Head of House for Nenyuk tells you they want to have you put in a contract against another noble...would you jump at the chance?  Probably so.  You'd ask "how high should I jump?" and then follow it up with "I really hope you're paying me well for this," and of course, they will, because you're their route into the system.

And if you do say no...well, money opens up doors that otherwise may stay shut.  Watch your back.  It may not be a registered shadow artist that comes for you...it may just be some Nenyuki thugs.  You might find your account liquidated, all due to "bank errors."

For the most part, however, this is a virtual matter and not really something that would come up except in rare cases for PCs.

[Nyr]

I'll add one more thing that might make it make more sense:

It's a little like Whira's Luck.

If caste is unequal between two people, the person with the higher caste wins.
If caste is equal, the person with the higher social rank wins.

Exceptions:  most often at the edges, as mentioned in the previous post.

[Twilight]

So....it I read that right, if a commoner wanted to annoy a noble or templar, they would target their slaves, because commoner caste is higher than slave caste, so social rank of all except the truly critical slaves is irrelevant?  Assuming they didn't get a patron to help them.  I am assuming NPC and vNPC are acceptable targets under this system?

Also, where are non-citizens socially ranked.  I would have assumed in the Commoner caste below (Tuluki?) independents (since you don't have a separate caste for those not Tuluki below slaves), except for those in the GMH?  Not so much an issue for the Tuluki wanting to do something to some random non-citizen, but the clarification would help to know if they random non-citizen could use the system to do something to the random Tuluki indepentent.  I first thought that non-citizens would just not be part of the system, but then that is a cop-out because obviously at points they will be the targets (and potentially attractive ones at that for the patriotic) of the system.  It would seem cleaner to consider them a "caste" below slave, so that they couldn't take out contracts (except on other non-citizens?).

[Taven]

I think I understand. I have some questions.

1. What are the "entry level employees" in the Merchant Caste section? Are we talking Merchant House employees, or Byn runners? I ask because the Byn is included in that section.

2. Why is an "entry level employee" (merchant caste) having more standing then a Legions private? Does that mean that if an entry level merchant employee wants to do a contract on a private that doesn't involve physical harm, it's okay?

3. Seekers are not part of the artisan caste, they are considered commoners. However, freshly-inked Apprentice Shadow artists (someone who could have gotten their inks yesterday) are considered both artistan caste AND are set at a rank equal to Seekers. This makes no sense to me at all.

4. Bards are ranked at the same level as Journeyman Shadow Artists. Considering that there have been so few PC Bards ever, and the docs suggest that you can become a Shadow Artist Journeyman in three years... Are these really appropriately ranked?

5. Are there gradations within ranks? How does patronage apply?

[evilcabbage]

I think I understand. I have some questions.

1. What are the "entry level employees" in the Merchant Caste section? Are we talking Merchant House employees, or Byn runners? I ask because the Byn is included in that section.

2. Why is an "entry level employee" (merchant caste) having more standing then a Legions private? Does that mean that if an entry level merchant employee wants to do a contract on a private that doesn't involve physical harm, it's okay?

3. Seekers are not part of the artisan caste, they are considered commoners. However, freshly-inked Apprentice Shadow artists (someone who could have gotten their inks yesterday) are considered both artistan caste AND are set at a rank equal to Seekers. This makes no sense to me at all.

4. Bards are ranked at the same level as Journeyman Shadow Artists. Considering that there have been so few PC Bards ever, and the docs suggest that you can become a Shadow Artist Journeyman in three years... Are these really appropriately ranked?

5. Are there gradations within ranks? How does patronage apply?

Try to think about how unreasonably dangerous it is to be a shadow artist. Weaving a song is one thing, shadow artists have only a single function: to risk life and limb to succeed in their task. They don't 'get' second chances usually. If a bard buffs a song and does terribly, he gets another chance to write a better one. If a Shadow Artist fails to stick his knife below the third lumbar and twist, or fails to crack the one guy over the head and steal all his shit, well, he's either dead in that instance, or dead when the Templar finds out he fucked up.

[Ouroboros]

Nyr, I appreciate the time you took in responding. Some of it was clarifying, some of it was simply affirming. In the end though it comes down to...

This isn't how Tuluk is going to be, nor is it how Tuluk should be.

I'll agree on the first part, because Tuluk's buck stops with you. We'll have to simply agree to disagree on the second part, which shouldn't be hard since how something -should- be is entirely subjective to begin with. At best, how Tuluk -should- be could be attributed to the vision of those who developed it in the first place. But you've long departed from that vision, in favor of your own, so let's not dwell too long on how things -should- be and simply leave it at how they -will- be. At least for now, since nothing's permanent or sacred.

I had written more, but it would simply be wasting both our time as well as derail the thread further from it's topic. Such derails have become frequent from me as of late, but it isn't intentional. It just happens that each change you present also has some side-effect that might not be the topic of discussion, but still merits such. I'll try to refrain from future derails though, because in the end all the discussion in the world won't make you change your mind on something you've decided on. At best, on the topics you do post for discussion, we can share some thoughts and hope some of it clicks with you. Whatever isn't on your slate or in your vision though, clearly might as well not exist.

Best of luck, and I sincerely hope your vision pans out as you hope it will. Because at the end of the day, we're the ones stuck playing in it, not you.

[Lizzie]

I have another question - this one is geographical logistics, and it has actually been relevant in the past, so I'm assuming it would crop up now and then in the present/future:

Amos the Tuluk First Hunter for Kadius, who is -not- a family member, but -is- a true-inked Tuluk citizen. He pisses someone off badly enough to want him dead.

That someone arranges for the Byn to whack Amos next time Amos hires the Byn for a trip to Allanak. The instructions are to make sure said whacking occurs anywhere south of the Luir's southern gate; beyond that, the contract doesn't specify where or how.

Is the someone offering the contract, breaking the laws of shadow artists? Are they even breaking any laws at all in Tuluk? My guess would be no, since said whacking is a) not being contracted out to a shadow artist, b) not being contracted out to a Tuluki at all, c) specifying that the whacking not take place anywhere in the north.

But the fact that the someone, and Amos, are both Tuluk citizens - has me wondering if the someone might get in trouble "legally" for it, if the contract is discovered.

[bcw81]

I have another question - this one is geographical logistics, and it has actually been relevant in the past, so I'm assuming it would crop up now and then in the present/future:

Amos the Tuluk First Hunter for Kadius, who is -not- a family member, but -is- a true-inked Tuluk citizen. He pisses someone off badly enough to want him dead.

That someone arranges for the Byn to whack Amos next time Amos hires the Byn for a trip to Allanak. The instructions are to make sure said whacking occurs anywhere south of the Luir's southern gate; beyond that, the contract doesn't specify where or how.

Is the someone offering the contract, breaking the laws of shadow artists? Are they even breaking any laws at all in Tuluk? My guess would be no, since said whacking is a) not being contracted out to a shadow artist, b) not being contracted out to a Tuluki at all, c) specifying that the whacking not take place anywhere in the north.

But the fact that the someone, and Amos, are both Tuluk citizens - has me wondering if the someone might get in trouble "legally" for it, if the contract is discovered.

Murder is, and has always been, a crime in Tuluk. A shadow artist doesn't murder, he or she creates art. There is a large difference. Hiring a group of people for murder a political offense. Hiring a shadow artist for art is not.

[Nyr]

So....it I read that right, if a commoner wanted to annoy a noble or templar, they would target their slaves, because commoner caste is higher than slave caste, so social rank of all except the truly critical slaves is irrelevant?  Assuming they didn't get a patron to help them.  I am assuming NPC and vNPC are acceptable targets under this system?

If a commoner thinks it wise to send a message to a noble by targeting their slave, more power to them. However, i think it is doubtful this would come up much for PCs.

NPCs aren't really off the table or anything, but I am not sure how one would target or take action against a vNPC.

Also, where are non-citizens socially ranked.  I would have assumed in the Commoner caste below (Tuluki?) independents (since you don't have a separate caste for those not Tuluki below slaves), except for those in the GMH?  Not so much an issue for the Tuluki wanting to do something to some random non-citizen, but the clarification would help to know if they random non-citizen could use the system to do something to the random Tuluki indepentent.  I first thought that non-citizens would just not be part of the system, but then that is a cop-out because obviously at points they will be the targets (and potentially attractive ones at that for the patriotic) of the system.  It would seem cleaner to consider them a "caste" below slave, so that they couldn't take out contracts (except on other non-citizens?).

Covered under the note on foreigners.

Foreigners
Foreigners and non-citizens not employed by a merchant house are not part of the caste system, but for the purposes of social class would be ranked below independent commoners.

[Nyr]

I think I understand. I have some questions.

1. What are the "entry level employees" in the Merchant Caste section? Are we talking Merchant House employees, or Byn runners? I ask because the Byn is included in that section.

Yes.

2. Why is an "entry level employee" (merchant caste) having more standing then a Legions private? Does that mean that if an entry level merchant employee wants to do a contract on a private that doesn't involve physical harm, it's okay?

To the first: because GMHs have power.
To the second: perhaps, find out IC.

3. Seekers are not part of the artisan caste, they are considered commoners. However, freshly-inked Apprentice Shadow artists (someone who could have gotten their inks yesterday) are considered both artistan caste AND are set at a rank equal to Seekers. This makes no sense to me at all.

You aren't an apprentice until you have done at least couple of jobs successfully.

Artisan isn't a specific caste. Commoner is. Artisan adequately describes bards of a certain rank or higher as well as shadow artists that have met minimum requirements.

Apprentice
Shadow artists attain this rank by completing at least two contracts successfully.

4. Bards are ranked at the same level as Journeyman Shadow Artists. Considering that there have been so few PC Bards ever, and the docs suggest that you can become a Shadow Artist Journeyman in three years... Are these really appropriately ranked?

Might need to adjust it a little, but sharing the same spot on the rank list does not mean exactly equal ranking. Rp comes into play there.

5. Are there gradations within ranks? How does patronage apply?

Yes, but we aren't going to lay out every single case where two folks in tuluk might get into a social rank penis measuring contest.

To the latter, we'll make some tweaks to better account for partisans.

[evilcabbage]

And, also, if a Shadow Artist fails to succeed those two jobs, uhh, he's probably dead meat or NEVER going to work as a Shadow Artist again.

[Twilight]

NPCs aren't really off the table or anything, but I am not sure how one would target or take action against a vNPC.

*Queue mission impossible music, strummed by the bard at the end of the bar*

Your mission, should you choose to accept it...

Go to the stables and gather up the poo.  That night, sabotage Salarri locations in Red Sun Commons with the poo to leave a scent.  Get more poo.  The next day, while they are wondering what happened, pelt Salarri crafters with poo, while heckling them for providing weapons to the Nakkis.

Or something.  I was thinking of non-lethal situations mostly, and probably most situations that would include slaves, especially if you wanted a specific house or rank of slave humiliated.

On a non-related note, can you hire shadow artists to do something positive?  Like loudly proclaim that Bard Amplebreast's song is the best ever, or similarly try to make it seem like there is support from other folks than are aligned with you (thinking about partisan shadow artists in part) to the public?

[Taven]

2. Why is an "entry level employee" (merchant caste) having more standing then a Legions private? Does that mean that if an entry level merchant employee wants to do a contract on a private that doesn't involve physical harm, it's okay?

To the first: because GMHs have power.
To the second: perhaps, find out IC.

I don't mean to cause trouble, but I want to make sure I understand. You said that "entry level employee" covers bynner Runners in addition to GMH employees, which makes byn Runners have greater social standing then a Legions private. That seems really weird. Even if it was a Byn Trooper, it seems weird.

Wouldn't it make more sense for Bynner Runners and Troopers to be in the commoner column? Once you hit Sergeant or Lieutenant or whatever, I can see you having some pull, but it seems weird before then.

3. Seekers are not part of the artisan caste, they are considered commoners. However, freshly-inked Apprentice Shadow artists (someone who could have gotten their inks yesterday) are considered both artistan caste AND are set at a rank equal to Seekers. This makes no sense to me at all.

You aren't an apprentice until you have done at least couple of jobs successfully.

Artisan isn't a specific caste. Commoner is. Artisan adequately describes bards of a certain rank or higher as well as shadow artists that have met minimum requirements.

Artisan is a distinction within a caste, alright. I can see how an Apprentice bard might be just a commoner, as they just auditioned in and may have not learned anything yet. But shouldn't a Seeker, who makes art for a living, be described as an artisan?



As to the rest, I look forward to seeing the tweaks.

[Lizzie]

BCW1, I'm sure what you're saying is true, theoretically, but it has nothing to do with my question. I'll put the question more succinctly:

If a citizen hires a non-citizen, to kill another citizen, outside of the City, away from the North - and that non-citizen succeeds, has a crime been committed in Tuluk?

The whole thing with patrons and agents and having to deal with red tape in order to get a "legitimate" contract implemented, left me wondering if this form of "non-sanctioned" contract is legitimate, non-legitimate, or a non-issue entirely.

If a crime has been committed, it would be the citizen who hires a non-citizen to do something to another citizen, away from the "jurisdiction" of the northern authority. Does the northern authority's authority, extend beyond the walls?

If some random red-stormer meets up with a citizen in Luir's, finds out about the citizen's headache against another citizen, and contracts out to do harm to that citizen next time that citizen rides south - has the first citizen committed a crime in Tuluk? I mean - he wasn't even IN Tuluk when he contracted the red-stormer to do something to the other citizen.

Again - my answer would be no, no crime has been committed, no slight against northern authority committed, nothing untoward been done. What happens outside the North, stays outside the North, and so on. But I'm not staff, which is why I asked.

[bcw81]

I would definitely say it depends on who's being murdered in the first place, but the point I was trying to get across in the first place is that murdering a Tuluki citizen is murder, not art. Unless you're a shadow artist or hire one to do such. If you murder them outside the city, it's still murder and the proper authorities will come after you. If you murder them out of the Gol Krathu it's still murder and if the person warranted it, the proper authorities will come after you.

[ShaLeah]

Again - my answer would be no, no crime has been committed, no slight against northern authority committed, nothing untoward been done. What happens outside the North, stays outside the North, and so on. But I'm not staff, which is why I asked.

I'm not staff either but logically I'd feel thus:

If a Tuluki citizen goes against Tuluki law to do something to another citizen, anything, he is breaking the law and doing so knowingly. I wouldn't say "what happens outside the North stays outside the North" - I'd say "what the North doesn't know won't come bite you on the ass" and breaking Tuluki law is breaking the law, whether you're found out or not. The punishment for that sort of un-tuluki....ness...? would be severe? Banishment? Forceful removal of tattoos, forcing whatever House (Noble or otherwise) to fire them, death/disappearance... Maybe the Templarate there should have a law specifically for Non-playing-by-the-rules Tuluki  "citizens" that <do> such a thing and are <found out>?

[evilcabbage]

BCW1, I'm sure what you're saying is true, theoretically, but it has nothing to do with my question. I'll put the question more succinctly:

If a citizen hires a non-citizen, to kill another citizen, outside of the City, away from the North - and that non-citizen succeeds, has a crime been committed in Tuluk?

The whole thing with patrons and agents and having to deal with red tape in order to get a "legitimate" contract implemented, left me wondering if this form of "non-sanctioned" contract is legitimate, non-legitimate, or a non-issue entirely.

If a crime has been committed, it would be the citizen who hires a non-citizen to do something to another citizen, away from the "jurisdiction" of the northern authority. Does the northern authority's authority, extend beyond the walls?

If some random red-stormer meets up with a citizen in Luir's, finds out about the citizen's headache against another citizen, and contracts out to do harm to that citizen next time that citizen rides south - has the first citizen committed a crime in Tuluk? I mean - he wasn't even IN Tuluk when he contracted the red-stormer to do something to the other citizen.

Again - my answer would be no, no crime has been committed, no slight against northern authority committed, nothing untoward been done. What happens outside the North, stays outside the North, and so on. But I'm not staff, which is why I asked.

A true Tuluki citizen wouldn't consider anything less than a proper Artisan for such at ask.

[Riev]

Like the vegetable said, at least as far as I'd understand it... you didn't commit a CRIME, per se (though, naturally, anything a Templar says is a crime, is a crime). What you DID, though, is went against what your PC knows to be YEARS AND YEARS AND YEARS OF TRADITION (because to say otherwise, in fact, may be a crime), and so you went against what a proper Tuluki would do. Crime? No. But if a Templar finds out, I'm sure there will be some questions as to your faithfulness to His Glory Muk Utep.

Its like ASKING the IRS for an audit. Are you doing anything wrong? Nope. Does it matter? Nope.

[Lizzie]

I wasn't asking what's the IC right thing to do. I was asking if there's any particular policy on the subject, because it -does- come up, and it isn't rare or unusual.

Crime is based primarily on jurisdiction. In Zalanthas, that would be territory - or turf. If it happens on my turf, then it's a crime against my king. If it happens on your turf, it's not a crime against my king, because my king has no authority on your turf. In the real world, there is such a thing as extradition - but not all countries participate. I imagine that Allanak and Tuluk wouldn't be particularly cooperative if a Tuluki went to Allanak and committed a crime there, and was punished, and Tuluk said "Hey wait, he's a True-Inked Citizen, and that behavior is NOT illegal in the Ivory! You must bring him back!"

And if a Tuluki were hunting in the Tablelands, and a SLK elf killed him, I'm pretty sure the Tuluki templarate wouldn't work -too- hard to bring that SLK to justice for attending to their own justice, in their own territory.

And if another Tuluki who had issues with the hunter, tipped off the SLK about the hunter heading toward the Tablelands, why in the world would the Tuluki templarate give a shit about petty shit like that? Two commoners, squabbling, and one of them is -stupid- enough to go hunting in the tablelands - I'd probably be more pissed off at whoever reported this so-called "crime" and fine them for wasting my time on commoner nonsense.

However - if that Tuluki tried to arrange for the SLK to raid the hunter east of the span - then hell yeah, let's find out how much the Soh wants to pay for me to forget it ever happened. Or maybe if the hunter had some use to the Ivory, we'll send the current Legion crew out on a few extra patrols.

This is my perception of how things are. You all have your perception of how things are.

I'd rather find out if there's any actual policy - or if the staff is considering creating one, if there isn't already. Or if it's a case-by-case thing, and there isn't and shouldn't be any policy.

[evilcabbage]

I wasn't asking what's the IC right thing to do. I was asking if there's any particular policy on the subject, because it -does- come up, and it isn't rare or unusual.

Crime is based primarily on jurisdiction. In Zalanthas, that would be territory - or turf. If it happens on my turf, then it's a crime against my king. If it happens on your turf, it's not a crime against my king, because my king has no authority on your turf. In the real world, there is such a thing as extradition - but not all countries participate. I imagine that Allanak and Tuluk wouldn't be particularly cooperative if a Tuluki went to Allanak and committed a crime there, and was punished, and Tuluk said "Hey wait, he's a True-Inked Citizen, and that behavior is NOT illegal in the Ivory! You must bring him back!"

And if a Tuluki were hunting in the Tablelands, and a SLK elf killed him, I'm pretty sure the Tuluki templarate wouldn't work -too- hard to bring that SLK to justice for attending to their own justice, in their own territory.

And if another Tuluki who had issues with the hunter, tipped off the SLK about the hunter heading toward the Tablelands, why in the world would the Tuluki templarate give a shit about petty shit like that? Two commoners, squabbling, and one of them is -stupid- enough to go hunting in the tablelands - I'd probably be more pissed off at whoever reported this so-called "crime" and fine them for wasting my time on commoner nonsense.

However - if that Tuluki tried to arrange for the SLK to raid the hunter east of the span - then hell yeah, let's find out how much the Soh wants to pay for me to forget it ever happened. Or maybe if the hunter had some use to the Ivory, we'll send the current Legion crew out on a few extra patrols.

This is my perception of how things are. You all have your perception of how things are.

I'd rather find out if there's any actual policy - or if the staff is considering creating one, if there isn't already. Or if it's a case-by-case thing, and there isn't and shouldn't be any policy.

Please go to your local Templar and explain to them that the entire Known is not their turf and they're just letting the other city-state live for now to entertain them.

[Lizzie]

I wasn't asking what's the IC right thing to do. I was asking if there's any particular policy on the subject, because it -does- come up, and it isn't rare or unusual.

...(snip)

This is my perception of how things are. You all have your perception of how things are.

I'd rather find out if there's any actual policy - or if the staff is considering creating one, if there isn't already. Or if it's a case-by-case thing, and there isn't and shouldn't be any policy.

Please go to your local Templar and explain to them that the entire Known is not their turf and they're just letting the other city-state live for now to entertain them.

This is my perception of how things are. You all have your perception of how things are.

I'd rather find out if there's any actual policy - or if the staff is considering creating one, if there isn't already. Or if it's a case-by-case thing, and there isn't and shouldn't be any policy.

[Nyr]

Ok, last time I'm doing this epic posting thing for the year, I hope.

Nyr, I appreciate the time you took in responding. Some of it was clarifying, some of it was simply affirming.

I'll be honest here:  the "sky is falling" schtick is getting a little old.  I modified a chart slightly and moved it to the new website.  It's not the end of the world, nor is it even the end of a role opportunity.  I'll get to that later.

In the end though it comes down to...

This isn't how Tuluk is going to be, nor is it how Tuluk should be.

I'll agree on the first part, because Tuluk's buck stops with you.

Correct to a large extent.  The person that is the administrator of a region or a series of clans is there as the local and final authority on things that go on there, though all of that is also subject to Producer review.  However, other staffers (especially including the ones on the Northern Team) contribute quite directly to these projects and their feedback and ideas have shaped how Tuluk is going.

We'll have to simply agree to disagree on the second part, which shouldn't be hard since how something -should- be is entirely subjective to begin with.

Tuluk is my current administrative project and focus, but since you're intent on derailing to nitpick minor changes related to more important system implementations, let's go there.

Yes, you can disagree on how you think the game (or an aspect of it) should be. 

We are all passionate about the game.  You are passionate about it as a player.  I am passionate about it as a staffer.  I work with several other passionate staff members that put in hours of volunteer effort to make the game run, and not just to make it run--effort made to make it better, to improve it beyond its current state.  There are times that staffers disagree with each other.  There are times that players disagree with each other.  There are times that players and staffers disagree with each other.  That kind of thing happens because we all care quite a bit about this hobby of ours!

At some point, though, things have to move forward, and someone is going to end up being either "wrong" or "disappointed" or "dissatisfied" with the decision, especially if two parties were at odds on an issue.  When that happens on staff, we buck up and move on to the next thing, because we're on a team together and that's how we roll.  When that happens between players and staff and staff decide to move forward with something players disagree with, the same decision has to be made:  "well, I didn't get what I wanted.  What do I do now?"

The best answer I can offer is that this is how life works sometimes.  You do not get 100% of what you want.

"Oh, but Nyr, you are getting 100% of what you want, you're the dictator of Tuluk now.  It's easy for you to say that since you're in the driver's seat here, isn't it?"

The changes we've made in the past few months to Tuluk have been made with some kind of consensus and plenty of discussion from staff.  Before we rolled with the plan starting over a year ago, I had a different idea for how things would proceed and that was disagreed with, and we went with something else. No, I didn't get 100% of what I wanted. If I did or if we worked things that way, I would have steamrolled in everything exactly how I wanted those things to be.  Over time and with feedback, we changed the implementation.

The majority of the changes we made did not involve player input because they were plot-based.  Some did involve limited player input from time to time, however.

So in the end, how Tuluk should be is (and has been) ultimately up to staff.

At best, how Tuluk -should- be could be attributed to the vision of those who developed it in the first place.

That looks as though it proposes three ideas at once: 

-that how an area of the game should be never should change over time (the game should be essentially immutable)
-that Tuluk should always follow the vision of its original implementation
-that staff, when implementing something, implement it forever; the earlier you implement anything on staff, the better it is for whatever idea you had because no one will ever change it later

None of those things are true. 

The game has changed over time, sometimes in drastic ways.  I don't think I need to list examples of major changes to areas of the game.
If Tuluk has an original vision, it has already changed at least four times in a major way by my count. Once during the events of the Cataclysm (wiped out half of the city and just kinda left it there--also, sometime around there, we get two orders of templars).  Once during the Occupation (now the city is under Allanaki control).  Once during post-occupation times ("subtlety" and partisanship and all that jazz).  Once during the fief project (the Qynar/Striasiri thing). 
Staff never implement something forever.  Some things last a long time because they work, and they get changed very little.  Some things last a long time because they get overlooked.  Some things last a long time because changing it is more trouble as leaving it the way it is.

So no, how Tuluk should be isn't attributed to any of the four visions of it in the past.

But you've long departed from that vision, in favor of your own, so let's not dwell too long on how things -should- be and simply leave it at how they -will- be. At least for now, since nothing's permanent or sacred.

Yes, I've departed from those four visions of Tuluk.  Not in favor of my own, necessarily, but I won't deny that my interests certainly have driven the direction that our staff-side discussions for Tuluk have gone.  We're not exactly scrapping these old visions, but we are keeping an eye on how things could (and, yes, in our opinions, how they should) change over time.  We hope to aim at a more basic vision that is already in the documentation, one that has been hinted at and talked about overtly on the boards but not easily supported.  Basically, if you don't think that Tuluk should be a tribal-influenced yet Orwellian-type city-state...then you're probably not going to like the direction it is heading.

No, nothing is permanent or sacred.  We've made that quite clear, I hope.

I had written more, but it would simply be wasting both our time as well as derail the thread further from it's topic. Such derails have become frequent from me as of late, but it isn't intentional. It just happens that each change you present also has some side-effect that might not be the topic of discussion, but still merits such. I'll try to refrain from future derails though, because in the end all the discussion in the world won't make you change your mind on something you've decided on.

The last thread, you took major issue with our decisions on coding and scripting these tattoos...and only relented when I explained we'd already considered your idea and tabled it in favor of something that made more RP sense.  Yes, you disagreed with it, but we'd already done it.  What did you want us to do, undo everything because you had a problem with it?  Not to put too fine a point on it, but you are one player, and your opinions and criticisms are welcome...but if they don't cause us to change our minds, it's not the end of the world because you don't like how something was implemented (or because you would've done it differently). 

This thread, you've taken major issue with something that didn't exist.  Or rather, it didn't exist as a role PCs actually played, but if players had scrounged through the website and somehow found the caste chart, they might have thought they had some real opportunities to play a socially high-ranked independent artisan, something that is otherwise undocumented.  I've already explained this one to some lengths, I think...but there's not really a place anywhere in the game for someone to be an independent (completely unaffiliated with a noble, templar, GMH, or even a small organization of independent people in some indie organization) and socially powerful artisan (something barely--if at all--defined in the docs I just changed) in the city-states.

And you're right.  All the discussion in the world won't make me change my mind on something I've decided on.  If only there were a thread somewhere...somewhere, a thread that was a living and breathing example of "all of the discussion in 20 pages of posts" making me change my mind on something I'd decided on...

At best, on the topics you do post for discussion, we can share some thoughts and hope some of it clicks with you.

If we are posting something for feedback or even for notification, we're happy to receive your opinions on it, but we are by no means obligated to implement all, some, or any of the things you think we should do.  That doesn't mean we won't take your advice into consideration and do something with it, but it does mean that if we say no...uh...not sure how to put this nicely, but...get over it?  We say no to lots of things.

Whatever isn't on your slate or in your vision though, clearly might as well not exist.

...we say no to lots of things.  We say yes to some things.  We do take in feedback.  However, exaggerating a "no, sorry, that's not what we are planning to do here but thank you for your opinion/criticism" into "fuck your ideas and your ideas suck because I didn't think of it" is silly. 

Best of luck, and I sincerely hope your vision pans out as you hope it will. Because at the end of the day, we're the ones stuck playing in it, not you.

Yep, we spend our free time working on a game, making changes to it that we'd have absolutely no desire to play through if we had the time to do so. 

Tone down the rhetoric, and lighten up about getting disagreed with...it's going to happen.

[Nyr]

2. Why is an "entry level employee" (merchant caste) having more standing then a Legions private? Does that mean that if an entry level merchant employee wants to do a contract on a private that doesn't involve physical harm, it's okay?

To the first: because GMHs have power.
To the second: perhaps, find out IC.

I don't mean to cause trouble, but I want to make sure I understand. You said that "entry level employee" covers bynner Runners in addition to GMH employees, which makes byn Runners have greater social standing then a Legions private. That seems really weird. Even if it was a Byn Trooper, it seems weird.

Wouldn't it make more sense for Bynner Runners and Troopers to be in the commoner column? Once you hit Sergeant or Lieutenant or whatever, I can see you having some pull, but it seems weird before then.

Maybe so.  I was writing that post from my phone, but I did mention later on that we'd be making tweaks, that this was a quick and dirty update to get it on the main site.

Besides, if they can't legally have the private killed or harmed...does it really matter?  The most you can do is annoy them to death?  That's "some pull".

Artisan is a distinction within a caste, alright. I can see how an Apprentice bard might be just a commoner, as they just auditioned in and may have not learned anything yet. But shouldn't a Seeker, who makes art for a living, be described as an artisan?

There's lots of focus on having people in the right subcategory of something we just ported over...is it really that important?  A Seeker is a Seeker, it's the same social rank whether it's an "artisan" or a commoner.

[evilcabbage]

So the end result of any pull against ANY member of the Legion is this:

"Faithful Lord, there was a lot of... fecal matter thrown around in my apartment."

"... Somebody must not like you."

Next day...

"Faithful Lord, somebody used fecal matter to draw a picture of an inix kanking a person."

"You are really pissing people off."

That's basically the extent of what can be done to the Legion, right? You can't have them beaten, maimed, threatened... nothing physically harming, but you can mentally scar them by ruining their apartment.

[Nyr]

Is the someone offering the contract, breaking the laws of shadow artists?

To request a contract, a Tuluki must meet privately with a templar.

Sounds like your someone is deliberately circumventing the shadow artist system in order to get someone killed, for reasons unknown.  I'd try not to get caught doing that.

Are they even breaking any laws at all in Tuluk?

Not if they don't get caught...