How do you feel about PC killing?

[Jherlen]

I've been playing Skyrim again lately. There's this random encounter you can have on the road with an orc who says "I am looking for a good death." He tells you how he's old and had many battles and wants to have an awesome death before he grows feeble and weak.

It reminded me of Armageddon. There's a step in evolution as a player where you stop trying to keep your characters alive at all costs, and start trying to find awesome ways for your characters to die.

[spicemustflow]

Wasn't that orc in Morrowind?

[BadSkeelz]

There's an Orc in Morrowind (named Umbra) who is of similar personality.

[evilcabbage]

Like...you keep picking apart my examples, but you're just missing the point. I've been being a scrub. I've constructed this false set of rules for myself on how to act within armageddon. Those rules are simply wrong. As long as I act within the confines of the game and my character, whats the problem?

Of course you can have long-lived PCs by not pissing people off. Like... derr. To say that veteran players dont do the things I described is just delusional.  I cant tell you how many times I've seen veteran PCs simply be evasive to the point of ridiculousness. This goes for all types of roleplay. You all act like I'm comitting some awful crime by saying I want to play better and be more ruthless in what I choose to do with my PCs. I'm the only person being honest here. I'm simply describing what good players (good @ staying alive/killing people) already do. Its basically all OOC decisions.

I'm a veteran player of Armageddon (this is what, almost my third year of playing now?)

I fucking die -all the time-. I do not avoid big events. My longest lived characters aged maybe once or twice before being killed, but I have never EVER avoided a drastically violent situation that would end with my death. In fact, fi you dig around on the forums, I WELCOMED one such situation with open arms and RP'd it out to the fullest of my capabilities, and it ended up being ridiculously fun.

tl;dr You're Wrong.

[spacewars]

Like...you keep picking apart my examples, but you're just missing the point. I've been being a scrub. I've constructed this false set of rules for myself on how to act within armageddon. Those rules are simply wrong. As long as I act within the confines of the game and my character, whats the problem?

Of course you can have long-lived PCs by not pissing people off. Like... derr. To say that veteran players dont do the things I described is just delusional.  I cant tell you how many times I've seen veteran PCs simply be evasive to the point of ridiculousness. This goes for all types of roleplay. You all act like I'm comitting some awful crime by saying I want to play better and be more ruthless in what I choose to do with my PCs. I'm the only person being honest here. I'm simply describing what good players (good @ staying alive/killing people) already do. Its basically all OOC decisions.

I'm a veteran player of Armageddon (this is what, almost my third year of playing now?)

I fucking die -all the time-. I do not avoid big events. My longest lived characters aged maybe once or twice before being killed, but I have never EVER avoided a drastically violent situation that would end with my death. In fact, fi you dig around on the forums, I WELCOMED one such situation with open arms and RP'd it out to the fullest of my capabilities, and it ended up being ridiculously fun.

tl;dr You're Wrong.

Three years does not make you a veteran. Talk to the folks who have played 15years those are vets

[Harmless]

Beginning Armageddon players often imagine that their PCs lives will play out like it would in a fantasy book, or in a pen and paper campaign, or on another MUD where there's no permadeath.

Permadeath is a heavy dose of reality that changes the way characters' lives are played out drastically.

If you're long lived and you're doing stuff, you're most likely NOT the "good guy." Just like in the real world, nice guys finish last. Good guys die first.

I have played "good" characters and their lives have ended dramatically earlier than I expect. This is because the harsh reality of an unjust world hits them at some point and down they go. That's because Armageddon is unlike most fantasy novels; it's more similar to the minority of fantasy novels that get a lot of respect here, ones where characters are killed off based on their actions and the setting. Adult fantasy. "Dark fantasy." There are lots of terms for it, but the bottom line is that realism is incorporated properly and events have consequences.

Those "good guys" that die due to their willingness to take risks or defend someone they love or their dedication to crime or cruelty or whatever it is, are missed. Missed by their players, and the PCs they interacted with. I remember most fondly those characters that I roleplayed with fidelity to the concept, even when it led to them dying.

My attempts at doing the above have also led to my PCs killing other PCs, and therefore I too enforce the reality that Zalanthas is meant to have.

Now, this isn't to say I'm a badass. I'm a peon among others here that REALLY do the above; to some degree I enjoy the "game" as much as the story and I make OOC decisions at times that benefit me "unrealistically." But, this game isn't about winning or losing, karma or whatever. It's just about having fun. The fact that it is entirely free reinforces this fact. You're volunteering to be here, so are the staff; we're more like sharing stories and trading blows in an eternal spar that was never meant to have a winner. This is how killing should be seen; a cycle, a part of an eternal struggle that has no defined end. Much like life itself... again, permadeath = reality.

edited for slightly more clarity, having some insomnia and decided to crawl out of bed to post something..

[evilcabbage]

Good guys do not always necessarily finish last, you can still be a good person in Armageddon. Just think about "Good" as it relates to what city-state you're in. If you're a Nakki and you kill yourself an inked northerner in an alley and then split the coin (80 20) with a Templar (in the Templars favor), you just did a good deed.

Similarly, if you're a Tuluki and you 'disappear' a southerner, and nobody ever hears about them again (especially a Nakki), well hell. You just did a Good Thing.


TRUE good does not exist in Zalanthas and cannot because Perceived Good will destroy it eventually.

Also, as far as PC killing, I have killed a grand total of maybe six PCs in my time and I have not regretted a single one. They all deserved it in their own way. I felt bad at the time about one because it was this -huge- trust thing, and man... I felt so bad about offing the guy. But I came to accept it later as my character performed THE ultimate back stab on a supposed friend.

[Wastrel]

Like...you keep picking apart my examples, but you're just missing the point. I've been being a scrub. I've constructed this false set of rules for myself on how to act within armageddon. Those rules are simply wrong. As long as I act within the confines of the game and my character, whats the problem?

Of course you can have long-lived PCs by not pissing people off. Like... derr. To say that veteran players dont do the things I described is just delusional.  I cant tell you how many times I've seen veteran PCs simply be evasive to the point of ridiculousness. This goes for all types of roleplay. You all act like I'm comitting some awful crime by saying I want to play better and be more ruthless in what I choose to do with my PCs. I'm the only person being honest here. I'm simply describing what good players (good @ staying alive/killing people) already do. Its basically all OOC decisions.

I'm a veteran player of Armageddon (this is what, almost my third year of playing now?)

I fucking die -all the time-. I do not avoid big events. My longest lived characters aged maybe once or twice before being killed, but I have never EVER avoided a drastically violent situation that would end with my death. In fact, fi you dig around on the forums, I WELCOMED one such situation with open arms and RP'd it out to the fullest of my capabilities, and it ended up being ridiculously fun.

tl;dr You're Wrong.

Dat necro.

Lets be straight up. Here is what I was saying in pretty simple terms so no one misunderstands me. I've never been really good at explaining myself because I've never enjoyed painting out things in detail so people wont misunderstand me. Anyway.

Basically I was saying that in order to have a long lived PC, you gotta play smart. This is not a radical or abstract concept. This can be defined as being tactical about long-term decisions for your PC or just common sense. Its not "metagaming" - its just playing smarter. Its really not that big of deal. Alot of you older players have had that one great PC, that one PC that was alive for a shitload of time and did a bunch of cool plots and had adventures galore. You basically won Arm on that PC. I have never got to experience that. I have had some cool times on Arm, but never that. I just want to be the pretty little princess, once. So sue me. I think alot of the older players who say "Ya man, death whenever, thats cool /w me" have already had such a PC.

I am fairly confident in my skills as a player on the mud armageddon.org. I know the game pretty well and can roleplay with the best of em. I'm not some mega-twink who grinds skills all the time nor am I some evasive little cockerel who avoids anything dangerous. I think alot of the negativity directed @ me was because people thought that what I was saying I was going to do. Its not.

Vets dont avoid conflict all the time, but they do play smart so their PC can live a long time, if they want it to. I was calling this metagaming, and that was probably not the best term to use. And of course there are always those extremely lucky types that do all sorts of wild shit and live for forever. Whatevs. Not that big of a deal. Alright we're done here.

tl;dr You're beating a dead horse br0

[Kaineus]

I haven't read many of the posts in this thread, sorry. I think the best response to this is the same that you get in those mating/mudhumping threads: Just act in a way that is in character. It's not beneficial to think of PC killing as an action of a different class than any other act a human would do.

There are plenty of IC reasons to kill in many parts of Zalanthas. If someone steals something of great value to you or does some other great harm to you, sure, you might want to kill them or hurt them. Maybe you are incapable of doing this yourself and have to seek militia, some other group. Maybe these groups refuse to help you because you don't have enough clout with them, so then you have to hire an independent assassin or thug to help you. Maybe you think you can get vengeance on your own and ride out to kill a bitch. [Edit]: Maybe you are a weak scrub with no coin and no clout so you have to resort to spying and blackmail to get back at your foe; if you are successful that could bring more misery than PKing.

There are a few character concepts (raiders, assassins) that let you PK with abandon.  It can be a problem if you enjoy that too much OOCly and get a kick out of ending other humainoids so much that your RP falters for it; fortunately characters with problematic behavior in game are often taken out for it. Most player deaths I have seen in game have been warranted for some reason or another. I've had characters of mine murdered within hours of character generation, but even then I was just thankful that people were RPing character concepts that make Zalanthas harsh and full of death, as it should be.

[evilcabbage]

Playing stupid =/= short life.

Playing smart =/= long life.

It's luck of the die (hahah) in that case, I assure you. I have played some intense characters who take some VERY big risks, and they have panned out for a decent bit of time AFAIK.

[Delirium]

Have I posted in this thread?  I feel like I have, but if I haven't, it seems pretty clear-cut to me.

I hate ending PCs. That's someone's baby right there. However, we all knew the risks as soon as we rolled up our PCs.

We are participating in a collaborative storytelling effort, and sometimes that means our part in the story ends. Therefore, it makes no sense to avoid killing another PC if that it is the logical IC choice for your character. Sometimes the overarching story demands that a chapter end, as much as you hate doing it.

[boog]

I'm with Delirium, here.

[Fujikoma]

The one time I -should- have found a way to kill another PC, it kind of made sense IC and made much sense OOC, my PC didn't bother looking into it and it came back to bite him in the ass.

[sprucebark]

As a long time player I would welcome death at the hands of a well played character over anything else.
I would hope they appreciate if I manage to give them the same.

[Eyeball]

PC killing is a vital part of the game's atmosphere. If it was taken away, a lot of the tension and excitement would go with it.

[DustMight]

I'm not opposed to killing or being killed - and frankly have had beloved, hard-worked-on PCs die in a moment without warning and accept that (along with a bit of whiskey) as part of life on Armageddon.  That said - what has helped me curb killing is to note that killing a PC that is a problem for my PC may not really solve the problem in the long term.

Granted, not all killer PCs are going to have saintly insight - who would want it that way? I have noted however that characters I have killed in the past I might not had to kill had I played it out differently. It's never necessary to kill a character, really, unless you are locked in deadly combat - and maybe not always then, either.

The worst is having a beloved character into whom one has put in many hours (yours, or another person's) die in a moment without explanation or understanding.  That is a part of life on Arm too - but I know I would have loved to have one or two of those characters get a moment to grovel, to beg, to become indebted too their would-be murderer. I won't deny that to another player's character, if given the chance.

However, if you spam run from my desert raider, I will shoot you down!  

[evilcabbage]

I'm not opposed to killing or being killed - and frankly have had beloved, hard-worked-on PCs die in a moment without warning and accept that (along with a bit of whiskey) as part of life on Armageddon.  That said - what has helped me curb killing is to note that killing a PC that is a problem for my PC may not really solve the problem in the long term.

Granted, not all killer PCs are going to have saintly insight - who would want it that way? I have noted however that characters I have killed in the past I might not had to kill had I played it out differently. It's never necessary to kill a character, really, unless you are locked in deadly combat - and maybe not always then, either.

The worst is having a beloved character into whom one has put in many hours (yours, or another person's) die in a moment without explanation or understanding.  That is a part of life on Arm too - but I know I would have loved to have one or two of those characters get a moment to grovel, to beg, to become indebted too their would-be murderer. I won't deny that to another player's character, if given the chance.

However, if you spam run from my desert raider, I will shoot you down!  

If I'm spamming run and dismounted <_< You should just chase me until I run outta stamina. At that point I'm COMPLETELY fucked.

"So, what's to stop me from killin' ya right now?"

"I-I-I.. h-here!"

drop pack

[Ouroboros]

I shared my thoughts on this a while back in another one of these threads (here, here and here), so all I'll say here is... Nyr said it best, in my sig.

[valeria]

Leaving someone alive when I could and should have probably killed them led to some of the best plots I've ever had.

On the other hand, sometimes that's just not an option.

[Fujikoma]

n w n w n w ... Shoot if you like but I stagger my steps.

[RogueGunslinger]

n w n w n w ... Shoot if you like but I stagger my steps.

Movement speed is too fast in this game. Escaping like this should NEVER be an option. You should be able to draw and fire an arrow/throw a bola before someone can move through 2 rooms.


People should not be able to speed through a damn room before you can ever go "l figure" or "watch figure" or "follow/shadow figure".


Also, running trumps Guard way too hard.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Movement speed is too fast in this game ... You should be able to draw and fire an arrow/throw a bola before someone can move through 2 rooms ... People should not be able to speed through a damn room before you can ever go "l figure" or "watch figure" or "follow/shadow figure".

Agreed.

Also, running trumps Guard way too hard.

Mmmm, nah. I'm good with that. Guard isn't a magickal wall of sand or something ...

[Fujikoma]

To be completely honest... If your character is some jerk who just kills whatever they see, fine, but I didn't app my character, wait the necessary time, spend time developing skills, just to be another notch on your belt. Now, if you want to walk up and RP some you'll be much more likely to get what you want, if what you want is to kill my character. Starting off by shooting an arrow is not the way to do it, maybe try throwing a bola or something fun like that, or taint your arrows.

Just like IRL, if you're running from someone with a gun, you never run in a straight line.

[RogueGunslinger]

Yeah but in real life you can shoot to the north-east.

[manonfire]

My stance on PC killing, and ultimately the bit of text that drew me to the game in the first place.

Complaints of unfairness will not be given an audience. If you think
your character's situation was unfair, too bad. Live with it or don't.