PCs killing other PCs

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I THINK that people looking for an EXCUSE were just playing. I HOPE they were.

I absolutely don't encourage looking for reasons to kill other PCs. That really IS stupid. On the other hand, I don't encourage NOT killing PCs when the situation would logically lead to their death. That's ALSO stupid.

And yes, if someone spares your life, don't go the cold revenge route because you the player are pissed. Our egos are not our characters' egos. It's really important to remember that. Be IC at all times, whether killing someone or not.

[Ouroboros]

Just to tack on two points to this...

Yes, there are definitely times where a PK is the appropriate response. How to judge when that time has come, was I believe what Incognito was trying to shed light on. We don't always have the luxury to stop any think about that of course, and perhaps often the situation has no other possible outcome. Be it because there's a Templar behind you ordering the kill, the heat of battle doesn't permit a truce, or any other number of reasons we encounter in the course of play. One helpful tip in this, is to find some time to consider how your character would act under various situations that when occurring are time-sensitive and/or stressful. That way if that time comes along, the situational conclusion you arrived to just might jump to mind.

That said... If you've never experienced a proper antagonist to your character, definitely consider that the next time you have the opportunity to find one. Don't cheat yourself out of the experience, because it's one of the most rewarding you'll get to enjoy. Your character might have every reason to want to throttle the dying breath from someone's throat, but by reigning them back a bit, you as a player get to enjoy the process. And not just you, but likely most characters around both you and your antagonist. The plots and schemes, the veiled and overt threats, the elaborate attempts that fail just at the last moment... It's just awesome, no other way to describe it.

So. Sure, kill a bitch when you gotta. But if you find an opening, and are dead-set on revenge, consider giving birth to an enemy instead. Make it obvious that you're willing to let the RP escalate, and you just might be surprised at how much fun showing or being shown mercy can be.

[Kismetic]

Personally, I'm against any metagame thought, or even thinking of you as a player.  Some characters are killers.  Others are not.  Some killers have a reason not to kill, and some others are forced to kill against their ethos.  Keep in character, and figure it out.

And don't grief on the GDB.

[X-D]

I am going to have to go with Kismetic on this one.

[tiptoe]

1) Victim might have logged off in wrong location prior to HRPT and is now stuck in the wrong place with the wrong accent.
2) Victim might be passing through a certain area, enroute elsewhere.
3) Victim might be lost.
4) Victim might be dehydrated and needs to replenish water or face death.
5) Does my role really require me to kill on sight?
6) Does my role background actually say that trespassers need to be killed?
7) Does my role/clan/racial background suggest that I should commit genocide?
Does my role/mentality dictate that I kill "finger-wrigglers" outright?
9) Just because my clan/tribe/house belongs to a certain geographic location, does it mean that I must protect it from all outsiders on pain of death?

I feel like a lot of these points are generally the same thing (#2, #6, and #9). And these are pretty specific. And in these cases, I get the feeling your character would KNOW not to be there.

So, maybe it could be taken a step further by saying, "Would my character be in a certain area if they know there's potential to be killed?" I think I would worry less about others' intent to kill, and more about what your character would be doing to preserve its own life.

But overall, this:

Personally, I'm against any metagame thought, or even thinking of you as a player.  Some characters are killers.  Others are not.  Some killers have a reason not to kill, and some others are forced to kill against their ethos.  Keep in character, and figure it out.

And don't grief on the GDB.

Edit to add: I have had my own fair share of PKed characters. I've been butthurt. I've grieved about it. I've submitted complaints that, when looking back, were pretty stupid. But in the end, I can look back and say that despite the fact that my character is dead, I'm playing a game that can actually invoke those types of emotions. I can become so invested in a character that death can be really upsetting. Take a week off, two, maybe three. And then come back and do it all over again because we're all apparently masochists.

I'm glad people PK. It makes this game what it is. And who knows, maybe your character's death will be the start of a new plot. Maybe your death will spur genocide, start wars, or end an era.

[Booya]

While I've had a tiny share of "yurr rly?" PKs, I've longed for a couple of my PCs to be PK'd before - and on a certain occasion eventually had to store instead which sucked.

Bloody wusses! Just remember you're not always doing your fellow player a favour or playing nice by not whacking their character.

[Vwest]

While I've had a tiny share of "yurr rly?" PKs, I've longed for a couple of my PCs to be PK'd before - and on a certain occasion eventually had to store instead which sucked.

Bloody wusses! Just remember you're not always doing your fellow player a favour or playing nice by not whacking their character.

You threw the fight with the horror, didn't you?

[Barzalene]

I THINK that people looking for an EXCUSE were just playing. I HOPE they were.

I absolutely don't encourage looking for reasons to kill other PCs. That really IS stupid. On the other hand, I don't encourage NOT killing PCs when the situation would logically lead to their death. That's ALSO stupid.

And yes, if someone spares your life, don't go the cold revenge route because you the player are pissed. Our egos are not our characters' egos. It's really important to remember that. Be IC at all times, whether killing someone or not.

Venomz said what I meant far more clearly.

[jcortrig]

Personally, I'm against any metagame thought, or even thinking of you as a player.  Some characters are killers.  Others are not.  Some killers have a reason not to kill, and some others are forced to kill against their ethos.  Keep in character, and figure it out.

And don't grief on the GDB.

This sums up how I feel about the matter, too.  You should be worried about what your character would do, not what you think is best.  But... I've been guilty of the meta-think myself before, when I stumbled upon someone who was linkdead and in the wrong place -- choosing to let them be instead of stealing from/killing them, when that would have been the more IC thing to do.  It's a judgment call, to be certain.

[catchall]

But... I've been guilty of the meta-think myself before, when I stumbled upon someone who was linkdead and in the wrong place -- choosing to let them be instead of stealing from/killing them, when that would have been the more IC thing to do.  It's a judgment call, to be certain.

IMO, linkdeads are a whole different ballgame.  It's hard to say what "the IC thing to do" is, since IC they aren't linkdead.  Yeah, I know, Krathstruck, whatever, but the last thing I want to see is for it to become "IC" to consider "Krathstruck" PCs a free-for-all smorgasbord of loot. 

[BleakOne]

I agree with giving some OOC slack to people experiencing OOC problems, like being linkdead, or game glitches, ect.

[Lizzie]

I agree with giving some OOC slack to people experiencing OOC problems, like being linkdead, or game glitches, ect.

Somewhat of a derail but still totally on topic:

So what happens - when there's a bounty out on Talia's head. Talia knows there's a bounty out on her head, everyone knows it. And there's a bunch of people seeking her out. Something happened "recently" involving Talia, so this is fresh information, and the hunt for Talia is new and exciting for everyone involved - including Talia, who is on the run.

Amos Bynner and his crew are over in the tablelands, scouring the terrain, avoiding elves (or maybe they even paid the elves off for this hunt - or joined with them to split the bounty) - and oh hey - there's Talia, in a cave, resting - and linkdead.

The bounty is on her head. Lord Goombah does NOT want her brought in alive. Talia is armed and dangerous - when she's not linkdead. Maybe she's a mage of extraordinary power. Or maybe she's just a maxed ranger/thug. For whatever reason, it's a bad idea to let her go, because you might not have this chance again.

Do you kill her?

Or do you go all OOC on her and let her live because her player was linkdead?

[janeshephard]

Would someone please kill my PC?

[lordcooper]

Personally, I'm against any metagame thought, or even thinking of you as a player.  Some characters are killers.  Others are not.  Some killers have a reason not to kill, and some others are forced to kill against their ethos.  Keep in character, and figure it out.

And don't grief on the GDB.

I agree pretty much completely, although it can still be good to make exceptions for obvious newbies.

[BuNutzCola]

I agree with giving some OOC slack to people experiencing OOC problems, like being linkdead, or game glitches, ect.

Somewhat of a derail but still totally on topic:

So what happens - when there's a bounty out on Talia's head. Talia knows there's a bounty out on her head, everyone knows it. And there's a bunch of people seeking her out. Something happened "recently" involving Talia, so this is fresh information, and the hunt for Talia is new and exciting for everyone involved - including Talia, who is on the run.

Amos Bynner and his crew are over in the tablelands, scouring the terrain, avoiding elves (or maybe they even paid the elves off for this hunt - or joined with them to split the bounty) - and oh hey - there's Talia, in a cave, resting - and linkdead.

The bounty is on her head. Lord Goombah does NOT want her brought in alive. Talia is armed and dangerous - when she's not linkdead. Maybe she's a mage of extraordinary power. Or maybe she's just a maxed ranger/thug. For whatever reason, it's a bad idea to let her go, because you might not have this chance again.

Do you kill her?

Or do you go all OOC on her and let her live because her player was linkdead?

In this kind of situation? Wish up and inform imms of the situation. They'll generally give you the go-ahead, or otherwise, I'd think

[Ouroboros]

Do you kill her? Or do you go all OOC on her and let her live because her player was linkdead?

I'd wish up and inform staff of the situation and depending on the answer, I would likely wait a bit to give some time to the player to regain access. If they did not return, I would take my time rp'ing her death and request staff at least pass those last moments on to her player, in an effort to take some of the sting away from a linkdeath killing (which always sucks for any player).

But that's me. You do you, boo.

So far in this discussion there's three aspects. Considering what's best for the other player, considering what's best for you as a player, and considering what's appropriate for your character. In my personal posts I haven't really offered much consideration to the first issue, and on this I'll go with Kismetic and agree that it's a metagame aspect, at least most of the time. Whether someone wants to consider such aspects in their gameplay is up to each.

However, I won't accept that considering what's enjoyable to you as a player is a metagame aspect that can simply be thrown out under the banner of RP purity. We all consider our enjoyment, first and foremost because this is a game. We consider it when we decide what sort of character we want to play, from their guild all the way to their quirks. No one plays a character they don't enjoy, at least intentionally. We consider it when we decide to join a clan, or not join one. And we continue to consider it through-out our gaming experience. Anyone that says otherwise is either hypocritical or has missed my point.

As far as the third issue goes, that of what's appropriate for our character, for me it's closely tied to the second issue. While I'd love to be able to say that my character lives without my interference, until Ginka goes AI that simply isn't possible. We're as much actors as we are puppeteers, and every time our characters are faced with a decision, we're the one's making that call. There's also very few characters who only have a possible single response to any given situation, unless they're a robot and thinking in binary terms. Just like in real life, there's a million factors that go into our every decision, starting from what to have for breakfast all the way to whether to shiv your cell-mate. Most of these factors are processed automatically without us even realizing it, but they do factor in.

Unfortunately when our characters are faced with a decision, unless they're a genetic replicants of us, we have to spend a bit more time deciding for them than we would for ourselves. All those various factors that we process in milliseconds in our day to day lives, have to be taken under consideration for our characters as well. Especially if you're claiming to be RP purists without metagame considerations. That's all fine and dandy, but treating your character like a cardboard cutout is just as bad as metagaming in my book. Taking it a step further, our characters are also able to rationalize their behavior just as much as we can, when they need to. Even if you're playing a hardened killer, you still need to stop and consider the factors involved in his or her mind, before typing in the kill command. Don't just take the easy route and say, "He's a killer, he kills." No, he doesn't just kill. He doesn't just do anything. If he kills, he does for a reason and there are factors to that to consider.

[Nyr]

and oh hey - there's Talia, in a cave, resting - and linkdead.

The bounty is on her head. Lord Goombah does NOT want her brought in alive. Talia is armed and dangerous - when she's not linkdead. Maybe she's a mage of extraordinary power. Or maybe she's just a maxed ranger/thug. For whatever reason, it's a bad idea to let her go, because you might not have this chance again.

Do you kill her?

Or do you go all OOC on her and let her live because her player was linkdead?

You wish up to staff to find out what you should do.  If you don't get a response and the situation is truly as you've described it and the PC is still not responding, put in a request and we'll consider your OOC lenience as IC power (i.e., it is the other player's responsibility to deal with their connection to the game in this modern world of smartphones and internet connections at various locations--so we will perhaps store them and tell them "we'll pick this situation up where it left off and give you the time to react appropriately, but you are not getting away IC just because you lost connection").

As for the original points of this thread, I agree on a lot of it, but there are some issues because the HRPT results in bad relations between two city-states.  If you think Allanak is going to just beat up your Tuluki soldier found near their city and send them away with a warning and an expectation of a public apology from Muk Utep himself, I've got bad news for you, son.  In an actively hostile situation between two major powers, there's not really a "9 times out of 10, this can be resolved without PK."  Maybe 1 time out of 5. 

The rest is appropriate as indicated for tribal roles in the Pah, but that's about the extent of it, and has very little to do with the HRPT or its aftermath.

[ShaLeah]

"All is fair in love and war" the old adage goes.

I can't think of a single reason why anyone would complain about being killed in an HRPT involving war.

There seems to be a lot less killing and danger than there was when I first fell in love with this game and I honestly don't know how to feel about that.

On one hand, I like that characters are living longer and doing more with that life, if in fact the long lived ones are contributing to lots of plotses, items and the game world in general.

On the other hand, I cringe at the thought of player or staff telling anyone they can't or shouldn't PK and I miss the days when it was way more prevalent. I really do.

Don't get me wrong, I think the world is still gritty, but this whole "death shouldn't be the first option" is bullshit. Death is always the quickest fix for 99% of the corruption and betrayal going on in game and that doesn't mean you'll be spared the aftermath of it, the friends coming after you, that mate, that House, that City, that tribe. Considering enslaving someone is now out, it really makes "owning/using someone for the rest of their life for sparing theirs" thing a little more difficult and only a fool would trust someone they are forcing to be indebted.

Most, by FAR most, of my characters die to PK.  I wouldn't have it any other way.

Incidentally the ONLY player complaint I have ever reported involving PK was an unsuccessful one.

[Lizzie]

and oh hey - there's Talia, in a cave, resting - and linkdead.

The bounty is on her head. Lord Goombah does NOT want her brought in alive. Talia is armed and dangerous - when she's not linkdead. Maybe she's a mage of extraordinary power. Or maybe she's just a maxed ranger/thug. For whatever reason, it's a bad idea to let her go, because you might not have this chance again.

Do you kill her?

Or do you go all OOC on her and let her live because her player was linkdead?

You wish up to staff to find out what you should do.  If you don't get a response and the situation is truly as you've described it and the PC is still not responding, put in a request and we'll consider your OOC lenience as IC power (i.e., it is the other player's responsibility to deal with their connection to the game in this modern world of smartphones and internet connections at various locations--so we will perhaps store them and tell them "we'll pick this situation up where it left off and give you the time to react appropriately, but you are not getting away IC just because you lost connection").

I really like this solution Nyr, thank you. It also addresses the situation when you wish up and there's no response. Sometimes it's something only a clan imm can address, and that clan's staff just isn't logged in at the time. Sometimes it requires a producer - and the producer isn't around, or is busy dealing with something important and just plain can't deal with "individual" issues at the moment. So I thank you for addressing that as well even though I didn't ask it - it's a very important part of the equation. You can wish up til you're blue in the face about something "going on right this minute" but if there isn't someone available/authorized to respond, then you need to know "what do I do now?" - and you answered it very clearly, and I think it's a perfect solution.

So thanks!

[Barzalene]

You should always kill when it makes ic sense. (With the exception of newbies sand those experiencing technical difficulties) You can't justifying paper thin pks as an ooc thrill with a tag line. You shouldn't step out of character to save another player's tender feelings.

[Incognito]

On the other hand, I don't encourage NOT killing PCs when the situation would logically lead to their death. That's ALSO stupid.

I feel like a lot of these points are generally the same thing (#2, #6, and #9). And these are pretty specific. And in these cases, I get the feeling your character would KNOW not to be there.

So, maybe it could be taken a step further by saying, "Would my character be in a certain area if they know there's potential to be killed?" I think I would worry less about others' intent to kill, and more about what your character would be doing to preserve its own life.

This is exactly what my original post was about....

PCs should try and understand what situations warrant "logically" killing other PCs.

Just to cite an example:
A c-elf attacking a non-c-elf in his "turf" of the rinth - cos he has some IC reason - that's logical.
A c-elf attacking a non-c-elf in his "turf" of the rinth - cos there's a turf war going on - that's logical.

But, c-elf attacking a non-celf in his "turf" of the rinth - just cos the non-elf PC is there - that's not logical.

All I was trying to suggest was - PCs should use their good judgement to decide whether the PK is warranted or not. That's all.

As far as whether the non-elf PC should be in the c-elf "turf" of the rinth (or not) - and whether the non-elf should be "preserving" his life by not being in the c-elf "turf" of the rinth - that's something that is always in flux - and dictated by IC turns of events, but perhaps some Staff member can clarify whether they should or should not be considered as "turf" that needs to be protected on pain of death - from time to time.

The alternative would be to consider all lands where your PC does not belong - as killing grounds - by default. And that's fine too - just as long as its made clear to everyone - and everyone starts behaving accordingly.

An apt example here would be c-elf or d-elf PCs who kill non-elves on sight in their respective turfs; when they visit the human settlements/City-States should they expect to be arrested or killed on sight, just for being there? Obviously there shouldn't be double-standards in such situations.

In this case - players probably need to re-evaluate their own tolerances for "foreigners" and RP accordingly.

The original post was in no way to suggest that PKing is bad, or that PCs shouldn't kill other PCs - cos PK'ing is and always has been an integral part of Arm.


Edited to add:
Despite my comments in the above post, in retrospect, I realise that PK'ing (whether logical or not) - can always be justified by a PC (in one way or another).

So, I guess there's not really much more that needs to be discussed as far as taking this argument forward.

Keep
Calm
and
App for
a new PC

[Bogre]

Or do you go all OOC on her and let her live because her player was linkdead?

Let her live, tell superiors that she was spotted in the cave but fled before she could be hunted down.

Dying while LD sucks.

[Armaddict]

I point and laugh at this thread.

[Vwest]

I point and laugh at this thread.

[mattrious]

But, c-elf attacking a non-celf in his "turf" of the rinth - just cos the non-elf PC is there - that's not logical.