PCs killing other PCs

[Incognito]

In light of events which have recently enfolded, and possibly effect the entire Known World, tensions are sure to be high, player-vs-player confrontations will be on the rise, and player-killing will probably increase.

There are definite IC reasons for PC to kill other PCs in these tumultous times, however, I would like to urge all the players to take a step back, and also take things from an OOC view point (to some extent).

Sure, there will always be some roles (militia from Tuluk or Allanak, for example) and events (bloodfeuds, one-to-one enemities, for example) that will require blatant PK'ing should they come across their counterparts/victims.

But for the rest of us, please give thought to some of the OOC points below, before killing another PC:

1) Victim might have logged off in wrong location prior to HRPT and is now stuck in the wrong place with the wrong accent.
2) Victim might be passing through a certain area, enroute elsewhere.
3) Victim might be lost.
4) Victim might be dehydrated and needs to replenish water or face death.
5) Does my role really require me to kill on sight?
6) Does my role background actually say that trespassers need to be killed?
7) Does my role/clan/racial background suggest that I should commit genocide?
Does my role/mentality dictate that I kill "finger-wrigglers" outright?
9) Just because my clan/tribe/house belongs to a certain geographic location, does it mean that I must protect it from all outsiders on pain of death?

There are various ways that a conflict can be resolved - death is one of them, and in most cases, not fun for the player of the victim PC.

It is my personal experience over many years of Arm'ing that 9 times out of 10, PK'ing isn't really necessary, and can definitely be avoided.

If your PC needs a conflict to be resolved with a "win" - some possible suggestions could be:
a) Ask the victim to apologize.
b) Loot the victim to some extent.
c) Completely loot the victim and leave him naked.
d) Ask victim's clan/House/tribe to submit a public apology.
e) Beat up the victim to some extent and then let him go.

In short, there are many ways that a PC could come out on top of a conflict, without actually killing off the victim PC.

I would definitely urge all PCs (who are not playing roles which necessitate PK'ing) to try and resolve conflicts without resorting to PK'ing.

We're all playing the game to have fun, and it's sad when players get de-motivated and discouraged by becoming victims of PK'ing, after having spend considerable time and effort to flesh out their roles.

In the words of Gandalf "True courage is about knowing not when to take a life, but when to spare one."

Yes, we're all aware that PK'ing is allowed IG and there is no real restriction on it - but we can be judicious to other players too!

[janeshephard]

Death can be fun.

I think if you realize your PC is going to die some day you'll be more accepting of it.

[Barzalene]

Both things can be true simultaneously.

Death will come. We must accept it. That doesn't mean we must trivialize it.

[najdorf]

I agree on some items in your checklist. However, situation shouldn't be any different than before. Same common sense & good RP guidelines have to be followed before PKing anyone. It depends on the mood of the attacker, it actually depends on a lot of factors. If the victim took active part in a battle, his/her chances of getting away will be harder. If attacker has lost his/her family or mate in the battle, hint of an accent can be a reason.

In any case, I hope a long interaction takes place between the sides so that it can be enjoyed.

[janeshephard]

Both things can be true simultaneously.

Death will come. We must accept it. That doesn't mean we must trivialize it.

In my experience being merciful can lead to your own death fairly quickly.

If you're from a faction my PC feels threatened by expect me to try to get an advantage and eliminate you.

[Barzalene]

Both things can be true simultaneously.

Death will come. We must accept it. That doesn't mean we must trivialize it.

In my experience being merciful can lead to your own death fairly quickly.

If you're from a faction my PC feels threatened by expect me to try to get an advantage and eliminate you.

I'm failing to relate your comment to mine. In any way.

[tiptoe]

With a tagline of "Murder, Corruption, and Betrayal," this seems like an strange request. But...PK was being discussed very recently, so I won't delve into that.

Personally, I miss the days when most of your characters were PKed. Seemed a little more interesting than your run of the mill NPC deaths.

[Shalazar]

With a tagline of "Murder, Corruption, and Betrayal," this seems like an strange request. But...PK was being discussed very recently, so I won't delve into that.

Personally, I miss the days when most of your characters were PKed. Seemed a little more interesting than your run of the mill NPC deaths.

This.

[Lizzie]

Both things can be true simultaneously.

Death will come. We must accept it. That doesn't mean we must trivialize it.

In my experience being merciful can lead to your own death fairly quickly.

If you're from a faction my PC feels threatened by expect me to try to get an advantage and eliminate you.

I'm failing to relate your comment to mine. In any way.

If I'm understanding it right:

Your PC accosts my PC. My PC doesn't like that one bit. In fact, she vows to herself that if she gets out of this alive, she will get her revenge. Your PC, being played by a merciful player, finds an excuse to let my PC go. Maybe steals her inix and weapon and tells her she has to stay out of the territory forever, and threatens my PC with the might of your tribe (of whom a few just happen to be mages - you're not one of them though).

My PC thinks to herself - you and what army are going to keep me out, and who left you the boss of me? You dumbass, you should've killed me when you had the chance.

Two weeks later, your PC is dead - a poisoned arrow through the skull from a distance, so you don't even know what hit her, because your character chose to give mercy to someone who was a sharp-shooter who left their warbow at home the day you happened to accost her.

Or an even scarier scenario - two weeks later, you're visiting Tuluk for trade, and a white-robed templar tells you how exciting it must be to be someone who can roam free in the desert - and invites you to lunch to tell her of your adventures. You go with her - a long but lovely walk to the Heart.

You never leave.

Welcome to Armageddon - where mercy is for the weak.


Now - this is one aspect of gameplay. Not the only one, certainly - but it is a perfectly reasonable reaction to the game world. There are times to give mercy to a character, and there are times to AVOID giving mercy to the character. The players' emotional ties to the character should take a back seat to believable roleplay. Not realistic roleplay, not fair roleplay, but believable roleplay. If you have to create excuses to NOT kill a character, then perhaps they really should be dying. Maybe not. But for me, every time I've made excuses for NOT killing a character, it's come to bite me in the ass.

[Barzalene]

My post didn't relate to mercy in any way. It related to not devaluing the impact of death by treating the game as  a first person shooter where other players pcs are not viewed as people.

How merciful anyone's pc is or isn't, should or shouldn't be, is beyond my control and not really my business.

[Harmless]

certainly the times I've been PKed I had it coming. It didn't make it less painful, though.

I've had good talks with Barzalene on helper chat about deaths. I appreciate their opinion, because, in the end, taking their advice helped me to move on the fastest and get back in the game after a few hard losses.

I've been thankful ever since, but my work-hours have suffered!

[Refugee]

In my opinion, if you make the choice to move your PC someplace where it wouldn't be welcome, you yourself have chosen to accept the PK that might happen.  If you're not cool with the risk, stay home.

Even if you were in the opposite city before the HRPT and ended up trapped there, you really had no reason to expect safety there.  You took a risk.  It's just worse now.

[Yam]

You've gone soft, Incognito.

[Ender]

The game's been a bit ginger over PK for the last few years as there hasn't really been a major flare up of faction violence in the game for a long time.  Now the environment is prime that players can and should react with violent force if they find other PCs in the wrong area and doing the wrong thing.

In the past the staff have made the game world come alive to enforce when your character is doing the wrong thing in the wrong place, and many times this results in death.  Now in certain areas of the game it seems players may be partly responsible for bringing those aspects of the game alive as well.

Please, please, please, players when you find yourself taking your character to a dangerous area and doing a dangerous thing, do not get OOCly upset when players react accordingly and attack and perhaps kill you.

[Lizzie]

The game's been a bit ginger over PK for the last few years as there hasn't really been a major flare up of faction violence in the game for a long time.  Now the environment is prime that players can and should react with violent force if they find other PCs in the wrong area and doing the wrong thing.

In the past the staff have made the game world come alive to enforce when your character is doing the wrong thing in the wrong place, and many times this results in death.  Now in certain areas of the game it seems players may be partly responsible for bringing those aspects of the game alive as well.

Please, please, please, players when you find yourself taking your character to a dangerous area and doing a dangerous thing, do not get OOCly upset when players react accordingly and attack and perhaps kill you.

Exactly.

[maxid]

While I agree with Ender, 100%, alongside knowing that death could come and you should accept it, you should be able to recognize mercy and realistically react to being let go, even if you get humiliated a little bit.

If I ride into Soh lands as a tuluki because I got lost and I get hassled, stolen from, then turned around, I might not just go back with my warbow and find the Soh who took my shit to kill them.. I might thank Utep that I got out, and avoid going there in the future.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

You've gone soft, Incognito.

I have to agree.

I will say, though, if you have the OOC power to do so, make their death a good one. Try to give them a good scene if you can do so. I understand if you can't, but try to if you can.

[RogueGunslinger]

70% of the reason I play this game is because of pkilling. And that's not me killing(because I suck), but me being killed. It's something you can't experience anywhere else. The loss of a character you were into, in the very moment you know things are going bad, is so fucking adrenaline-rush inducing that I can't get enough of it. I never get it from NPC's anymore. It's only the PK's that can bring it out.

[Cutthroat]

Conflict without PK and conflict with PK both have their place. Now that things are flaring up, if anything, Zalanthans would be more careful. Going to the "wrong" place to fill up water or whatever or passing through a warzone to get some place else isn't really an excuse for other PCs to show mercy to yours. Your PC should be aware of the danger and bring an extra skin or go a different route. Besides "murder, corruption, betrayal", this game has always been about actions and reactions, and consequences. ("Actions, reactions, consequences" is just not as catchy though.)

[MeTekillot]

70% of the reason I play this game is because of pkilling. And that's not me killing(because I suck), but me being killed. It's something you can't experience anywhere else. The loss of a character you were into, in the very moment you know things are going bad, is so fucking adrenaline-rush inducing that I can't get enough of it. I never get it from NPC's anymore. It's only the PK's that can bring it out.

you're getting too deep, man

pretty soon you're gonna be main-lining tektolnes insta-disintegration spells just to get your fix

[RogueGunslinger]

CRACKAGEDDON CRACKAGEDDON CRACKAGEDDON

[Ouroboros]

It is my personal experience over many years of Arm'ing that 9 times out of 10, PK'ing isn't really necessary, and can definitely be avoided.

Couldn't agree more. And it really isn't because I have anything against the concept of PK'ing. It's because experience has shown me that the potential RP that can come from withholding a deathblow often leads to far more enjoyment for me as a player, through the RP opportunities that can surface, than the enjoyment I'd otherwise receive from the kill. I don't know, maybe I'm just not homicidal enough to feel the scales tipped the other way.

Welcome to Armageddon - where mercy is for the weak.

The scenario presented is definitely a risk one takes, yes. However, more often than not that risk comes from the IC/OOC disconnect many players experience.

You were bested in combat, brought to an inch of your life, stripped of all earthly possessions, and so forth. And were left breathing with a warning that often goes like, "Don't. Do that. Again."

Were that to happen to most people, they'd wet their bed for a couple months and whether bitter, angry, or relieved, chances are they wouldn't do whatever that was again. But then, many of us are playing superheroes, and that's where the problems arise. Because in the movies, the beaten hero comes back with a vengeance and has their revenge served in an ice bucket. Sometimes the next day, sometimes decades later. But they always strike back.

My advice to anyone who finds themselves having been granted PK mercy is, after having licked your wounds, to take a long hard stare at your character and really consider if they're a normal person or a superhero. I get that you, as a player, want revenge and can calculate the statistical success of such based on code. But can your character? Does your character really know that if they xyz while abc under the dfg, they'll likely be able to get their PK revenge unscathed? Or would they instead count their blessings and move on with their lives, doing their best to forget the incident ever happened?

We can't all be the heroes. And we can't all be the villains. Sometimes we're just Amos... a simple man of the land, making his way through the hardships of life as best he can. And feck anything that complicates that any further, it's hard enough putting food on the plate some days. Revenge? Let the Nobles worry about that shite, between wiping their arse with silk.

And even if revenge is on the menu? A PK is just an appetizer. You want to hurt that guy? Bring down their entire family by planting evidence of treason against their city-state. Befriend and eventually hire their best friend to take them out, so that last blow really stings. Salt their crops, burn their house, take it all away bit by bit until they're left with less than you were... naked and bloody, in the desert. Don't take the easy way out... because at the end of the day, they didn't. At least show your antagonist's player some respect, even if you hate their character.

[Delirium]

I just want to state, for the record, that I love Ouroboros' post. And agree wholeheartedly... in almost every case.

On the flipside, sometimes you just gotta kill a bitch.

Welcome to Armageddon.

[Kismetic]

1) Victim might have logged off in wrong location prior to HRPT and is now stuck in the wrong place with the wrong accent.
2) Victim might be passing through a certain area, enroute elsewhere.
3) Victim might be lost.
4) Victim might be dehydrated and needs to replenish water or face death.
5) Does my role really require me to kill on sight?
6) Does my role background actually say that trespassers need to be killed?
7) Does my role/clan/racial background suggest that I should commit genocide?
Does my role/mentality dictate that I kill "finger-wrigglers" outright?
9) Just because my clan/tribe/house belongs to a certain geographic location, does it mean that I must protect it from all outsiders on pain of death?

This thread needs to be retitled, "Nine good reasons to kill someone on Arm"

[Samoa]

I'm really surprised everyone's so bloodthirsty.

At the end of the day, I feel like it should be about what's good for the game. We cut newbies some degree of slack often, don't we? Why is that? Because it's good for the game.

The problem is that in MOST circumstances, killing a player is an inherently destructive thing for the game. Can it create plots? Oh, absolutely! But odds are, it's destroying a lot more than it's adding, because all it's really adding is one: "Who was that guy that killed my buddy?" There are exceptions to this rule, but consider if beating the shit out of someone, robbing them, scarring them, whatever, is really going to fail to do something that murder won't. I agree with Ouroboros completely -- not everyone should be a superhero. I have friends who get mugged out in Oakland, or get the shit beat out of them, or raped. And do you know what they do? They sure as shit don't spend the next few years trying to track down who did it so they can enact revenge. They give thanks that they're alive, and then they move away and pray it never happens again -- so, please, don't give me the "it's not IC to fail to seek revenge if someone spares me!" as a reason for murder.

I have, and do, kill PCs. Sometimes with very little prelude, because that's what makes the most sense. What I'm saying, though, is that that should really be the -exception- to the rule. If you mug someone, act violent against them, or otherwise rough them up and *let them go*, you are not doing a destructive thing -- you are doing a constructive thing for the game. You have added to the gameworld as a whole, not subtracted from it. Have you EVER played a leader PC? How does it feel when you've been planning something for OOC months and someone just ups and gets killed? It fucking sucks. And then your RPT gets pushed back, and back, and back, and sometimes it is even seasons later that you get to do what you were going to do, all because your minions keep dying. Again, sometimes murder IS the correct answer. But you should not be looking for excuses to kill somebody, as a surprising many of you are suggesting in this thread.

We ALL fudge things sometimes. We come up with reasons to do things for our characters that make IC sense so we can do the things we want to do with them. Someone posted something about "how to be a good roleplayer" a few months back, about pencil and paper games, and one of the rules that EVERYONE agreed on was, "Don't come up with a reason for your character to not do something, because that just shits on everyone at the table who came to play. It's YOUR fucking character. You figure out how to get them to do it." That holds true here, too. The same way you come up with a reason to interact with a newbie who you might normally not. The same way you come up with a reason for your pickpocket to not know who someone is so you can rob them and cause drama. The same way you find a reason to interact with that other off-peak player because there's only ever ten people on when you play.

Be constructive. Not destructive. It makes us all better off.