Tuluki social hierarchy: discuss!

[Red Ranger]

It's a worthy discussion!  It's appropriate to disagree OOC'ly and IC'ly about some aspects of culture in the game.  It happens in RL.  For instance, the ancient Romans debated about Roman social institutions and culture and modern Americans disagree all the time about American culture: guns and religion anyone?

So again, here's the link to the old Tuluki social hiearchy table.  Take it away!

Edit: by way of explanation, I created this new thread to redirect the derail of this thread.

[Riya OniSenshi]

I'm pretty sure staff said that that thing is just sort of a guideline.

It's been awhile since I read the old threads about it, though, so I may be misremembering.

[Cutthroat]

It's a good guideline, but Tuluki societal structure is probably more fluid than it would seem from just looking at the table. Some of the groups on the table (Independent Commoner, Poet's Circle Apprentice, Chosen Family Member, the bottommost rank of the templars, and probably some others) are so big that there have to be gradations within them, for the sake of practicality and player conflict. It's also implicit that Chosen and Faithful are always above commoners and slaves, even if some of those ranks appear on the same level on the table.

[Barzalene]

I think it's fine that beginner bards have an inflated sense of their own importance, but I think that if they want power they should have to do the leg work, the same way everyone else starts at the bottom and gets ahead on favors or merit.

[Red Ranger]

I'm pretty sure staff said that that thing is just sort of a guideline.

It's been awhile since I read the old threads about it, though, so I may be misremembering.

I personally totally agree.  It's a guideline.  I personally also think that there are many other modifiers to social status that can be very important depending on the situation.  I've previously highlighted a few that I think are important here and here.

[Riya OniSenshi]

I'm pretty sure staff said that that thing is just sort of a guideline.

It's been awhile since I read the old threads about it, though, so I may be misremembering.

I personally totally agree.  It's a guideline.  I personally also think that there are many other modifiers to social status that can be very important depending on the situation.  I've previously highlighted a few that I think are important here and here.

Agreed.

I think it's fine that beginner bards have an inflated sense of their own importance, but I think that if they want power they should have to do the leg work, the same way everyone else starts at the bottom and gets ahead on favors or merit.

Could we please stay on topic and not make this an "I Hate Bards" thread? I know they're due up in the cycle soon, but please go make another thread if planning to post such. And I'm talking to everyone reading this, not just Barzalene.

[Barzalene]

Wasn't meant to be I hate bards, but rather a response to comments in the original thread. I don't hate bards. I think it's topical as it speaks to fluidity and geadiation within castes.

[Son of Valhalla]

A noble and a templar are the same level at base rank?

[palomar]

A noble and a templar are the same level at base rank?

The Faithful caste is above the Chosen caste, but base level individuals start out at the same social ranking. Accomplishments, reputation etc differentiate members of the two castes (but also within the castes).

In public, everyone recognizes the importance of the appearance that the Nobility are polite to one another, if not friendly, and that the Nobility and Templarate work as an effective team.

Nobles are exempt from all laws of Tuluk, with the exception of rioting or massing forces against the city-state. Thus, if a noble wishes to bear arms, or proceed to kill a commoner, then that is their perogative, as long as it is not against a member of the militia.

Nobles may ask favors of a templar, and in most cases, expect it to be granted. The politics driving the requests can influence the results, and it's not unheard of for a templar to outright refuse a noble with whom she or he is irritated. Generally, the Templarate are good about their duties to the nobility, though the lower-ranked templars are far more easily manipulated than those of high rank. Most templars come originally from noble houses, but most will disregard such ties, feeling their primary allegiance is, of course, to Muk Utep.

A templar may ask a noble to perform a favor or task for her or him. The noble is then obligated to follow the same rules as if the reverse had happened. In this way the nobility and templarate maintain the appearance of strength and unity, which are beneficial for all concerned. Should a single Templar go too far in failing to give proper respect to the nobility, or too frequently fail to do her or his job properly... accidents happen. And vice versa.

The paragraphs above explain some of the interdependence between nobles and templars.

[palomar]

Apprentices should be far down, because they still have everything left to prove (except being worthy of Circle membership). I've personally found the Seeker rank to be appropriately situated as it allows for both up- and downwards mobility and socially acceptable maneuvering towards peers or those perceived to be slightly above them in social rank. Most PCs an Apprentice or Seeker would encounter can be found in the same social ranks, or those directly above and below (save for nobles and templars).

I like this rank chart mostly because it shows that even unskilled slaves - of any race, are above unaffiliated foreigners. If you don't have the star (or slave tattoo) and the band, you're nothing (GMH employees and T'zai Byn Sergeants being the exceptions).

[Riev]

The only thing that gets me, as per the original discussion, is that Seeker PCs seem to be pretty rare. Like, they have to be alive for quite a while, win a lot of competitions that are usually spread out or rare. And yet, they're at about the same rank as a PC thats been around maybe 2 RL months who got a promotion to Corporal in His Legions.

I'm not saying so much that it should be different, but time invested for both social ranks seems a little out of proportion. It seems to be mirrored around a "2 IC year investment" for other clans, but I've known people that took much longer than that to be Seeker, and they really put forth the effort to try and get there.


Could it be that, in most other clans, there are leaders that can promote based on how you've performed, but as a Bard its up to how a staff member feels? No offense to staff intended, but they're more likely to say "What have YOU done" than someone who plays with you on a PC all the time.

[palomar]

Apprentice -> Seeker doesn't take very long, but probably requires more staff attention than clans where low-rank promotions are done by other PCs. Seeker -> Bard on the other hand... That takes a long time.

[Taven]

Please note that staff has said this chart is old and outdated.

GDB Reference of Rank Chart:

(For your convenience and ease - original can be found here)

Exalted	Templar	Surif Noble	Hlum Noble	Artisan	Merchant	Legions	Commoner	Slave
(Faithful Caste)	(Faithful Caste)	(Chosen Caste)	(Chosen Caste)	(Common Caste)	(Common Caste)	(Common Caste)	(Common Caste)	(Slave Caste)
The Sun King	---	---	---	---	---	---	---	---
High Precentor	---	---	---	---	---	---	---	---
Lirathan Precentor, Jihaen Precentor, Inquisitors	---	---	---	---	---	---	---	---
---	Lirathuan Sect Mistress, Jihaen Knight Templar	Chosen House Head	---	---	---	---	---	---
---	Lirathan High Templar, Jihaen High Templar	Chosen Senior Family Member	---	---	House Head (GMH)	---	---	---
---	Lirathan, Jihaen	Chosen Family Member	Hlum Chosen	---	---	Legions General (commoner)	---	---
---	---	---	---	Circle Leader (bard)	---	Legions Colonel (commoner)	---	---
---	---	---	---	Masterbard (bard)	---	Legions Captain	---	---
---	---	---	Hlum Family (reverts on Hlum death)	Master Artisan, Master Assassin	Senior Merchant (GMH)	Legions Lieutenant	Senior Employees of Chosen/Faithful	---
---	---	---	---	Bard (bard), Accomplished Artisan, Accomplished Assassin, Master Thief	Merchant (GMH), Lieutenant (Byn)	Legions Sergeant	Mid-ranked Employees of Chosen/Faithful	Ranked Lyksaen Warriors, Master Artisan Slaves, Ranked Legion Slaves
---	---	---	---	---	Junior Merchant (GMH), Sergeant (Byn)	Legions Corporal	Seeker (bard), Junior Employees of Chosen/Faithful	Ranked House Slaves, Artisan Slaves
---	---	---	---	---	Entry Level Employees	Legions Private	Apprentice (bard)	Chosen/Faithful Personal Slaves
---	---	---	---	---	---	Legions Recruit	Independent Commoner	Skilled Slave
---	---	---	---	---	---	---	---	Unskilled Slave

There are four main societal castes in Tuluk:

   1. Faithful
   2. Chosen
   3. Commoner
   4. Slave

Tuluki society further breaks these categories down into the following subdivisions of caste:

1. Faithful

   I. Exalted
   II. Templar

2. Chosen

   I. Surif Noble
   II. Hlum Noble

3. Commoner

   I. Artisan
   II. Merchant
   III. Commoner

4. Slave

   I. Slave

A Note on Foreigners - Foreigners and non-citizens not employed by a merchant house are not part of the caste system, but for the purposes of social class would be ranked below independent commoners. This table is inclusive of all citizens of any race.

A Note on independent organizations - Independent organizations that are not tied to a city-state but do fall into the place of a merchant house are usually lumped into the "Merchant" subgroup if they are deemed successful and influential enough. A group of hunters would not fall into this category, but a self-made, established organization complete with some sort of noble, templar, or GMH sponsorship would.

[Taven]

Other considerations beyond caste include:

1) Employment and rank: Templarate or Surif employment being most important
2) Patronage: Templarate or Surif patronage being most important
3) Other known associations with the Faithful and Chosen
4) Public accomplishments: including festival victories or proof of excellence in one's "art"
5) Public embarrassments
6) Longevity
7) Location: public area or private? Which Tuluki faction controls that area?

...To name just a few.

Red Ranger already brought up this post, but I thought it was worth quoting directly here. I think that the rank table absolutely cannot be considered without these. The thing about the caste system is your actual power and influence are dependent on a lot of other things. I'd even include "clan activeness" as a player-specific consideration.

A lot of influence comes from how much your clan can either back you up (in the case of an employee or member), or how much your underlings can do for you (in the case of an employer). You can be the employee of a Chosen or Faithful, for example, but it may not matter if that Chosen/Faithful isn't around to support you. Likewise, if you are a Chosen or Faithful, you're going to have a lot more influence (being able to accomplish things) if you have people to work with. It may not even be employees. Let's say that Chosen Lady X puts a lot of time developing relations with Merchant House Y, through their active PC leader. Suddenly, that PC goes inactive. Chosen Lady X may have helped out Merchant House Y a lot, but if they can't use them as a source, it's going to limit their influence/power.

Please note that all of these examples are general and theoretical and are not intended to offend.

[musashi]

There is no such thing as a Legions General (commoner).

The legions have one general, at the very top, and it's the Jihaen Precentor by default.

Other than that,

A noble and a templar are the same level at base rank?

I don't think this chart was meant to just be read from top to bottom, it's arranged left to right as well, and for a reason. The further to the left side of the row the person is, the more they out rank the people to the right of them, even if they're on the same row.

So for example, a Hlum noble isn't on the same level as a Surif noble, and a Surif noble isn't on the same level as a Templar.
A skilled slave isn't on the same level as a commoner ... Etc.

[Dakota]

Read that foreigners? If you ain't inked and ain't employed, you're dirt.

Actually to make a more serious point, while I -do- see foreigners get -some- flak in Tuluk from citizens... I see a lot of people fawn over tribals (non-inked) and other non-inked clans that are not GMH... I keep wondering if they fall under this 'outsider' 'rank' (as I believe they should)...


and this...

I don't think this chart was meant to just be read from top to bottom, it's arranged left to right as well, and for a reason...

...a Hlum noble isn't on the same level as a Surif noble, and a Surif noble isn't on the same level as a Templar.
A skilled slave isn't on the same level as a commoner ... Etc.

[racurtne]

Do band-inked, but non-citizen count as foreign? I'm sort of assuming they fall in between.

[Taven]

There is no such thing as a Legions General (commoner).

The legions have one general, at the very top, and it's the Jihaen Precentor by default.

I was wondering about that, but that's the chart as it was last updated. Right now, the Colonel is lower then the Jihaen rank, and is in the commoner caste section.

I don't think this chart was meant to just be read from top to bottom, it's arranged left to right as well, and for a reason. The further to the left side of the row the person is, the more they out rank the people to the right of them, even if they're on the same row.

So for example, a Hlum noble isn't on the same level as a Surif noble, and a Surif noble isn't on the same level as a Templar.
A skilled slave isn't on the same level as a commoner ... Etc.

You make a good point. I'd included most of the chart but less of the text, but the text supports this view. I have updated the GDB Reference Rank Chart to include this text.

[Delirium]

On the tribal note, any status-conscious citizen would likely limit their fraternizing to trade and loose friendship. Sleeping with a dirty foreigner is just ew. Might as well be jumping an elf.

[palomar]

Do band-inked, but non-citizen count as foreign? I'm sort of assuming they fall in between.

They are off the chart, but generally considered more valuable/useful than those without the band tattoo. People who aren't citizens but have the band tattoo usually come from groups of people/tribes that provide something to Tuluk's benefit as hunters, grebbers etc.

Human and elven tribes (Seik, Arabet, Muark, Sun Runners, Soh etc) are considered outsiders and foreigners. Some tribes or individual tribemembers may have higher/lower standing than others, due to historical reasons. Most people wouldn't be aware of the details. Elves are elves and desert elves aren't even civilized like those we have at home, and human tribals... hide your babies.

[racurtne]

Do band-inked, but non-citizen count as foreign? I'm sort of assuming they fall in between.

They are off the chart, but generally considered more valuable/useful than those without the band tattoo. People who aren't citizens but have the band tattoo usually come from groups of people/tribes that provide something to Tuluk's benefit as hunters, grebbers etc.

Human and elven tribes (Seik, Arabet, Muark, Sun Runners, Soh etc) are considered outsiders and foreigners. Some tribes or individual tribemembers may have higher/lower standing than others, due to historical reasons. Most people wouldn't be aware of the details. Elves are elves and desert elves aren't even civilized like those we have at home, and human tribals... hide your babies.

This is what I thought, thank you for the clarification.

[musashi]

There is no such thing as a Legions General (commoner).

The legions have one general, at the very top, and it's the Jihaen Precentor by default.

I was wondering about that, but that's the chart as it was last updated. Right now, the Colonel is lower then the Jihaen rank, and is in the commoner caste section.

I don't think this chart was meant to just be read from top to bottom, it's arranged left to right as well, and for a reason. The further to the left side of the row the person is, the more they out rank the people to the right of them, even if they're on the same row.

So for example, a Hlum noble isn't on the same level as a Surif noble, and a Surif noble isn't on the same level as a Templar.
A skilled slave isn't on the same level as a commoner ... Etc.

You make a good point. I'd included most of the chart but less of the text, but the text supports this view. I have updated the GDB Reference Rank Chart to include this text.

The other thing on that chart's source page that's out of date Taven, is the High Precentor reference. The Lirathan Order is no longer the leading order in Tuluk. The current High Precentor is a Jihaen. Ardith Lkysae, if memory serves.

[Taven]

Read that foreigners? If you ain't inked and ain't employed, you're dirt.

Actually to make a more serious point, while I -do- see foreigners get -some- flak in Tuluk from citizens... I see a lot of people fawn over tribals (non-inked) and other non-inked clans that are not GMH... I keep wondering if they fall under this 'outsider' 'rank' (as I believe they should)...

Well, actual influence wise, tribals can have a lot of influence. Take the gypsies, for example. They may be outside of the Tuluki caste system, but if they're looked on highly by Chosen and Faithful who make use of them (for their skills, goods, or what have you), then they're going to have a lot more influence.

You also need to remember that a high-ranked tribal of other tribes may have more influence then you think. Why? Because they're contributing to the Tuluki economy. There is an entire Qynar devoted to the sale of tribal goods. Generally, I don't think you see too many (any?) PC tribals of rank where they could influence that, but it is something to consider.

I also don't think there are too many issues where a thing like the Tribal Market would matter overall. Because... If you push a tribal around in the Tooth, their tribe is going to go, "it's the city, it's their turf". You'd probably have to be excessively harassing them (in a way that would ruin their business or threaten the tribe) for them to actually do anything, or for them to have people listen to their concerns.

A Note on Foreigners - Foreigners and non-citizens not employed by a merchant house are not part of the caste system, but for the purposes of social class would be ranked below independent commoners. This table is inclusive of all citizens of any race.

Emphasis mine.

An "Accomplished Artisan" is ranked the same as a (rank) Bard and a Merchant (GMH). Note that does not mean Junior Merchant (GMH), but actual full merchant. Does this mean then that an Akai Sjirr crafter who has made an art piece (or a couple) in the city for someone, has that rank?

It would mean that yes, that elf is better then a Legions Corporal, Sergeant (byn), Seeker (bard), Junior Merchant (GMH), and Junior Employees of Faithful/Chosen.

[palomar]

There is no such thing as a Legions General (commoner).

The legions have one general, at the very top, and it's the Jihaen Precentor by default.

That is true, but I think the Legions are set up in a way that would technically allow for a commoner General. If it ever happened, they'd have the social rank position the chart indicates. The Order of Jihae and the Sun Legions are bound closely together now, and the reference to a commoner General would probably be an artifact from times when that wasn't necessarily the case (Old Tuluk).

[Taven]

The other thing on that chart's source page that's out of date Taven, is the High Precentor reference. The Lirathan Order is no longer the leading order in Tuluk. The current High Precentor is a Jihaen. Ardith Lkysae, if memory serves.

Yes, this is true. I left it as "High Precentor" on my GDB post for that reason, since eventually it'll probably change again. It seems more important to note that the position exists, rather then who currently has it.

I can update it with a note if you'd like all I same. 

[palomar]

Taven, it's important to remember that there are human tribes in Tuluk where all members are citizens. A lot of the tribals in that qynar will be citizens, though their tribal ways surely attract non-citizen tribals to trade there as well. Both of the band-but-no-star tribals kind, and tribals from more distant lands.

[Taven]

Human and elven tribes (Seik, Arabet, Muark, Sun Runners, Soh etc) are considered outsiders and foreigners. Some tribes or individual tribemembers may have higher/lower standing than others, due to historical reasons. Most people wouldn't be aware of the details. Elves are elves and desert elves aren't even civilized like those we have at home, and human tribals... hide your babies.

Taven, it's important to remember that there are human tribes in Tuluk where all members are citizens. A lot of the tribals in that qynar will be citizens, though their tribal ways surely attract non-citizen tribals to trade there as well. Both of the band-but-no-star tribals kind, and tribals from more distant lands.

The tribal market has a mix of a lot of tribes. As you pointed out in your other post (quoted above), there are tribes that have higher and lower standing. There are tribes that are more connected to Tuluk and tribes that are less connected. At the same time, some of the tribes you listed as outsiders and forginers do have representation in Tuluk, including actual permanent shops or stalls.

Am I saying that makes all tribals super awesome, and they should be treated like citizens? Not at all! They're tribals and have strange tribal ways. At the same time, I think that a Tuluki's reaction to a tribal would be really different from an Allanaki's reaction. There are actual coded echoes about Sun Runners darting down the street outside the Sanctuary and everybody should be familiar with that tribal elf's loud hawk inside the Sanctuary.

[Hishn]

This chart has very outdated and incorrect information.

[palomar]

Human and elven tribes (Seik, Arabet, Muark, Sun Runners, Soh etc) are considered outsiders and foreigners. Some tribes or individual tribemembers may have higher/lower standing than others, due to historical reasons. Most people wouldn't be aware of the details. Elves are elves and desert elves aren't even civilized like those we have at home, and human tribals... hide your babies.

Taven, it's important to remember that there are human tribes in Tuluk where all members are citizens. A lot of the tribals in that qynar will be citizens, though their tribal ways surely attract non-citizen tribals to trade there as well. Both of the band-but-no-star tribals kind, and tribals from more distant lands.

The tribal market has a mix of a lot of tribes. As you pointed out in your other post (quoted above), there are tribes that have higher and lower standing. There are tribes that are more connected to Tuluk and tribes that are less connected. At the same time, some of the tribes you listed as outsiders and forginers do have representation in Tuluk, including actual permanent shops or stalls.

Am I saying that makes all tribals super awesome, and they should be treated like citizens? Not at all! They're tribals and have strange tribal ways. At the same time, I think that a Tuluki's reaction to a tribal would be really different from an Allanaki's reaction. There are actual coded echoes about Sun Runners darting down the street outside the Sanctuary and everybody should be familiar with that tribal elf's loud hawk inside the Sanctuary.

Non-citizen tribals would most likely be valued based on what they add to Tuluk through their presence there and their general relation to the city-state. For example, Sun Runners and Tan Muark bring trade first and foremost, and could also be appreciated due to being exotic. They have no social rank, but they could have a social standing based on how much favor they've worked up with the powers that be.

Tuluk has a tradition of appreciating and relating to tribal ways because the city-state was originally populated by tribals brought together by force by the Sun King, some of which have kept their roots and traditions fairly intact over time. Adding to the continued understanding and general appreciation of the concept of a tribe among the population of Tuluk is the fact that House Lyksae is very tribalistic. One could even argue that there are tribal touches to the Bards of the Poets' Circle, if you look at the individual Circles like families that together make up a tribal entity with elders (Masters and Circle leaders) in charge. Civilized, cultured and adapted, but still somewhat similar to a tribe.

[musashi]

An "Accomplished Artisan" is ranked the same as a (rank) Bard and a Merchant (GMH). Note that does not mean Junior Merchant (GMH), but actual full merchant. Does this mean then that an Akai Sjirr crafter who has made an art piece (or a couple) in the city for someone, has that rank?

It would mean that yes, that elf is better then a Legions Corporal, Sergeant (byn), Seeker (bard), Junior Merchant (GMH), and Junior Employees of Faithful/Chosen.

Again, a Merchant (GMH) is actually not ranked the same as a Bard or an acomplished artisan. The merchant is to the right of those two, and thus lower on the pole.

But, as Hishn, the chart is old and the information outdated.

[palomar]

This chart has very outdated and incorrect information.

That's understandable considering how old it is. Still, there's no other available overview document covering social rank, except for the distinction between the castes.

[Taven]

Non-citizen tribals would most likely be valued based on what they add to Tuluk through their presence there and their general relation to the city-state. For example, Sun Runners and Tan Muark bring trade first and foremost, and could also be appreciated due to being exotic. They have no social rank, but they could have a social standing based on how much favor they've worked up with the powers that be.

I'm talking about influence (or social standing, if you'd prefer). Technical rank really doesn't matter as much to me as influence or the actual power that someone has.

Tuluk has a tradition of appreciating and relating to tribal ways because the city-state was originally populated by tribals brought together by force by the Sun King, some of which have kept their roots and traditions fairly intact over time. Adding to the continued understanding and general appreciation of the concept of a tribe among the population of Tuluk is the fact that House Lyksae is very tribalistic. One could even argue that there are tribal touches to the Bards of the Poets' Circle, if you look at the individual Circles like families that together make up a tribal entity with elders (Masters and Circle leaders) in charge. Civilized, cultured and adapted, but still somewhat similar to a tribe.

Yep.

[BleakOne]

I think that in relation to race, in Zalanthas humans are nearly always considered superior to elves in the large cities. The exceptions would likely involve high-ranking elves in the few respectable clans that hire them, and especially low ranking humans (outsiders, slaves, ect).

In most cases, an elf citizen is lesser than a human one, considering the entire power structure of the city is made up entirely of humans, for the most part.

[Taven]

An "Accomplished Artisan" is ranked the same as a (rank) Bard and a Merchant (GMH). Note that does not mean Junior Merchant (GMH), but actual full merchant. Does this mean then that an Akai Sjirr crafter who has made an art piece (or a couple) in the city for someone, has that rank?

It would mean that yes, that elf is better then a Legions Corporal, Sergeant (byn), Seeker (bard), Junior Merchant (GMH), and Junior Employees of Faithful/Chosen.

Again, a Merchant (GMH) is actually not ranked the same as a Bard or an acomplished artisan. The merchant is to the right of those two, and thus lower on the pole.

But, as Hishn, the chart is old and the information outdated.

You're right, I keep forgetting the double ranking.

Revision of my previous statement, it would actually be:

• Bard (rank) on par with Accomplished Artisan on par with Accomplished Assassin on par with Master Thief
• Merchant (GMH) on par with Lieutenant (Byn)
• Legions Sergeant
• Mid-ranked Employees of Chosen/Faithful
• Ranked Lyksaen Warriors on par with Master Artisan Slaves on par with Ranked Legion Slaves

Which means that based on this chart the Akai Sjirr elf example would be higher rank then a Merchant (GMH) and a Legions Sergeant.

This chart has very outdated and incorrect information.

That's understandable considering how old it is. Still, there's no other available overview document covering social rank, except for the distinction between the castes.

I'll update the GDB Rank Chart Reference to note that.

Does staff have any comments on what the current state of things are? Or are there any plans to update the chart? You probably have a lot of other more pressing stuff on your plate right now, but I'm curious anyway.

[Red Ranger]

I think that in relation to race, in Zalanthas humans are nearly always considered superior to elves in the large cities. The exceptions would likely involve high-ranking elves in the few respectable clans that hire them, and especially low ranking humans (outsiders, slaves, ect).

In most cases, an elf citizen is lesser than a human one, considering the entire power structure of the city is made up entirely of humans, for the most part.

I agree.  IMO race would be another one of the modifiers to consider when "calculating" social status for commoners, but the racial modifiers can only be negative.  Human?  Negative zero.  Dwarf?  Negative one.  Elf?  Negative... much more than one.

Now IMO an elf can overcome that "negative" modifier conferred by their inferior race, but they need to do more than a comparable human would have to do in order to move up in status (serve the Chosen or Faithful more, more proof of mastery, more public victories, etc).  Similarly, other negative modifiers like public embarrassments would be harder for an elf to overcome compared to a human making the same faux pas, IMO.

[Taven]

I think that in relation to race, in Zalanthas humans are nearly always considered superior to elves in the large cities. The exceptions would likely involve high-ranking elves in the few respectable clans that hire them, and especially low ranking humans (outsiders, slaves, ect).

In most cases, an elf citizen is lesser than a human one, considering the entire power structure of the city is made up entirely of humans, for the most part.

I agree.  IMO race would be another one of the modifiers to consider when "calculating" social status for commoners, but the racial modifiers can only be negative.  Human?  Negative zero.  Dwarf?  Negative one.  Elf?  Negative... much more than one.

Now IMO an elf can overcome that "negative" modifier conferred by their inferior race, but they need to do more than a comparable human would have to do in order to move up in status (serve the Chosen or Faithful more, more proof of mastery, more public victories, etc).  Similarly, other negative modifiers like public embarrassments would be harder for an elf to overcome compared to a human making the same faux pas, IMO.

This is true.

However, Tuluk is also a culture which seems to have more respect for elves then any other location in the world (except within an elven tribe). In Allanak, the Jaxa Pah can get a lot of influence, but generally (not always) it tends to be more behind the scenes.

In Tuluk, the Akai Sjirr have been some of the most influential and even publicly respected people in the city. Tuluk also has elven bards (which may or may not also be Akai Sjirr) which have their own Circle. That means there are Bards and Masterbards of Rusarla, and they would have more rank and influence then a lot of PCs.

Are there subtleties there? Sure. Is that going to stop the fact that PC elves have the potential to and in the past have gotten to levels of influence past most (if not all) of the PC human commoner population? Not at all.

[Irulan]

This chart has very outdated and incorrect information.

That's understandable considering how old it is. Still, there's no other available overview document covering social rank, except for the distinction between the castes.

This seems to be part of the problem why people have so much trouble role playing a Tuluki? There are things that you can only learn by experience by being in Tuluk and playing around people that have been playing in Tuluk for a while. Doesn't' seem to be quite fair if people are attempting to role play according to the docs, but they get smacked down in game (or on the gdb) because the docs are outdated.  Still the general social structure should be relatively the same, even if some of the details are not up to date. And I think it helps to illustrate the the dynamics of the caste system that should be embedded in each Tuluki. I'm sure it isn't an obvious thing, but it should run through the mind of each Tuluki when they interact with someone else, what the other persons social status is, and how it relates to themselves. They may choose to ignore it for whatever reason, but it should at least be there.

[Riev]

I agree, Irulan. It can be very hard for someone who, reading most of the docs, understands that elves are terrible, disgusting thiefly liars that tell lies... and they're playing some Legionnaire Sergeant or a high-power GMH Merchant, but that "elf that once made a statue" is regarded higher than them, and they don't know why.

I know there's a lot of fluidity to it, and as discussed, there are many factors, but having something a little more firmed down might help Tuluki players understand their lot in life.

I mean. Why would I want to play a character thats is "only" a bardic-player, when I could play for a the same amount of time and have two more tiers of influence in the Legions or as *gasp* an elf?

[BleakOne]

I think that probably any human citizen who is not a slave or known criminal would pretty much always be above elves. Human commoner beats elf artisan. One is an artist, yes, but Tuluk isn't simply 'art trumps all'.

A high-ranking elf in a respectable clan who is also a citizen would probably be valued above a foreigner human. Probably. Unless the human was accepted for some useful purpose (trade, perhaps). Tulukis aren't so subtle they forget that elves are sneaky, thieving scum with little to no value to honest folk. They just don't tell elves that every time they see them.

[Bogre]

I agree, Irulan. It can be very hard for someone who, reading most of the docs, understands that elves are terrible, disgusting thiefly liars that tell lies... and they're playing some Legionnaire Sergeant or a high-power GMH Merchant, but that "elf that once made a statue" is regarded higher than them, and they don't know why.

I know there's a lot of fluidity to it, and as discussed, there are many factors, but having something a little more firmed down might help Tuluki players understand their lot in life.

I mean. Why would I want to play a character thats is "only" a bardic-player, when I could play for a the same amount of time and have two more tiers of influence in the Legions or as *gasp* an elf?

Is it really that difficult for players? Let's take the Akai Sjir, who are by the intro docs shown to be 'reknowned' for their artistry. But Bogre, but Bogre- all elves steal and tell lies! Well- so do these, but they managed to do other things that make them 'in higher' regard than your flat-ass grebber. Boom, explained.

It's got a lot of fluidity because it has to, it's Tuluk. Social ranks and hierarchies are much more mutable and flexible than those in Allanak. Shoulders rub cross-caste in Tuluk. A lot of the fluidity comes from influence - whereas in Allanak higher caste means you basically get what you want, and you only have to worry about retribution from someone higher up the food chain or some poor violent one below.

I think that probably any human citizen who is not a slave or known criminal would pretty much always be above elves. Human commoner beats elf artisan. One is an artist, yes, but Tuluk isn't simply 'art trumps all'.

A high-ranking elf in a respectable clan who is also a citizen would probably be valued above a foreigner human. Probably. Unless the human was accepted for some useful purpose (trade, perhaps). Tulukis aren't so subtle they forget that elves are sneaky, thieving scum with little to no value to honest folk. They just don't tell elves that every time they see them.

Then you're thinking incorrectly. A high-ranking elf in a respectable clan would be treated with respect for their exploits in artisanship/information gathering/bardic skills/whatever; and treated with respect, albeit of a different, perhaps more wary sort, to their known tendencies. And never forget that thieving and subterfuge is a virtue in Tuluki society, an art-form. Why would you think elves playing by the 'rules' in Tuluk, set out by the society and the Templarate, wouldn't be held in esteem? (Along with healthy dose of skepticism, sure.)

An Allanaki approaching an elf will see a cheat, a liar, a thief, and a swindler- and guard against it. A Tuluki approaching an elf might see a game of wits, a liar to out-obfuscate, a master of his craft, or a teller of creatively misleading tales, and welcome the opportunity.

[musashi]

Though it is a bit of a derail (or a narrowing of the rails) I believe the proper context in which to view the Akai is much the same as the Jaxa down south at least in so far as to say: their power should be accrued behind the scenes.

I'm not big of the idea of honoring elves in big arena events or having humans in the city proud to call them friends and be seen with them in public. I like that the Akai are there to give Tuluki city elves a tribe to be in, but the way I see it: look at where they live. That's their element. They don't have digs in Freil's Rest or the Poet's Circle for a reason.

I understand some folks feel like the Akai have been unusually elevated in game. If that's been the case, then I blame this again, on the PC microcosm.

As for Rusarla ... I dunno man. Yes they accept non humans, but how high do they rise? I imagine its much like Kurac. Sure you can join, but make no mistake about the glass ceiling.

[Fredd]

[quote author=musashi link=topic=45483.msg751288#msg751288 date=1368157712

As for Rusarla ... I dunno man. Yes they accept non humans, but how high do they rise? I imagine its much like Kurac. Sure you can join, but make no mistake about the glass ceiling.
[/quote]


I've seen a breed master bard for Rusarla. That's how high they rise.

[BleakOne]

That's unfortunate.

[Taven]

Though it is a bit of a derail (or a narrowing of the rails) I believe the proper context in which to view the Akai is much the same as the Jaxa down south at least in so far as to say: their power should be accrued behind the scenes.

The Akai are all about stone working and art. Art is a big thing. If a Faithful or Chosen hires you to make a piece of art to be permanently on display, forever, in the city? That's a lot of power. That isn't behind the scenes at all.

The major Akai elf of his age also did some things that were very much not behind the scenes. They were hilarious, but I'm surprised he lived. Luirsfest exotic dance contest, anyone?

I'm not big of the idea of honoring elves in big arena events or having humans in the city proud to call them friends and be seen with them in public. I like that the Akai are there to give Tuluki city elves a tribe to be in, but the way I see it: look at where they live. That's their element. They don't have digs in Freil's Rest or the Poet's Circle for a reason.

I understand some folks feel like the Akai have been unusually elevated in game. If that's been the case, then I blame this again, on the PC microcosm.

PCs are not always representative of the world as a whole, yes. But on the other hand, if there's no reflection of "actual" behavior through staff animations, then it's hard to react any differently then the most powerful PCs act.

As for Rusarla ... I dunno man. Yes they accept non humans, but how high do they rise? I imagine its much like Kurac. Sure you can join, but make no mistake about the glass ceiling.

In theory it is possible for a Rusarla elf to become a Bard or Masterbard (especially NPCs) although it would be very difficult. For a PC to actually any significant rank as a Rusarla would be extremely difficult, I would imagine. In theory, it is not impossible.

[musashi]

Luirs had a breed that rose to be Captain of the whole outpost as well. One. In the history of the clan. I would imagine Rusarla has similar trends.

Anyway I agree that yes, if the leader PC's are praising elves in broad daylight then it can set the tone (for better or worse) in the rest of the clan or city. That's an important aspect of playing a leader, setting the right example for others to emulate because staff can't police everything all the time. It's likewise hard not to treat some minor tiff between bottom level clan employees like a major act of war when the leader PC's are getting deeply involved in it as well.  Leader types are not immune to the microcosm effect.

My take on Akai and artwork is that it's perfectly fine to respect the artwork, without respecting the artist. It was said in Japan that the shogunate government respected argriculture a great deal. They just didn't respect agriculturalists, or farmers.

[racurtne]

Luirs had a breed that rose to be Captain of the whole outpost as well. One. In the history of the clan. I would imagine Rusarla has similar trends.

Anyway I agree that yes, if the leader PC's are praising elves in broad daylight then it can set the tone (for better or worse) in the rest of the clan or city. That's an important aspect of playing a leader, setting the right example for others to emulate because staff can't police everything all the time. It's likewise hard not to treat some minor tiff between bottom level clan employees like a major act of war when the leader PC's are getting deeply involved in it as well.  Leader types are not immune to the microcosm effect.

My take on Akai and artwork is that it's perfectly fine to respect the artwork, without respecting the artist. It was said in Japan that the shogunate government respected argriculture a great deal. They just didn't respect agriculturalists, or farmers.

Woah there, sir. Farmers were higher on the social hierarchy than artisans and merchants.

Edit to say: Sorry for derail.

[musashi]

http://asianhistory.about.com/od/japan/p/ShogJapanClass.htm

Read please.

The farmers were higher in name only, Japan is a great example of how you can appreciate the product and crush the person making it at the same time. This is kinda how I view the situation with the Akai and their "reknowned" artistry.

[racurtne]

http://asianhistory.about.com/od/japan/p/ShogJapanClass.htm

Read please.

Just below the samurai on the social ladder were the farmers or peasants.

Yep, there it is. Thanks.

But, yes, I realize what you're getting at. I'm well versed in Japanese history. Just bolding this, because I was just pointing something out.

It's even more relevant to the discussion to point out my quote in light of what you said that spurred me to mention it. If you hadn't noticed. That is, in fact, why I did it.

Edited to respond to the post below just so I didn't put another post in this topic...Also, I only said they were higher on the social hierarchy than merchants and artisans. I don't know why you felt that meant I was somehow uneducated on the subject. The only thing I said was, in fact, very true. When I pointed that out, for some reason you felt I was quote mining.  I was right. Didn't argue that they were not oppressed in some way. 

[musashi]

Keep reading please.

Although technically they were considered an honored class, the farmers lived under a crushing tax burden for much of the feudal era.

During the reign of the third Tokugawa shogun, Iemitsu, farmers were not allowed to eat any of the rice they grew. They had to hand it all over to their daimyo, and then wait for him to give some back as charity.

The fact that they honored them in name but crushed them in practice is exactly why they have the saying that I referenced above. So what was your whoa there about?

[palomar]

I think that in relation to race, in Zalanthas humans are nearly always considered superior to elves in the large cities. The exceptions would likely involve high-ranking elves in the few respectable clans that hire them, and especially low ranking humans (outsiders, slaves, ect).

In most cases, an elf citizen is lesser than a human one, considering the entire power structure of the city is made up entirely of humans, for the most part.

I agree.  IMO race would be another one of the modifiers to consider when "calculating" social status for commoners, but the racial modifiers can only be negative.  Human?  Negative zero.  Dwarf?  Negative one.  Elf?  Negative... much more than one.

Now IMO an elf can overcome that "negative" modifier conferred by their inferior race, but they need to do more than a comparable human would have to do in order to move up in status (serve the Chosen or Faithful more, more proof of mastery, more public victories, etc).  Similarly, other negative modifiers like public embarrassments would be harder for an elf to overcome compared to a human making the same faux pas, IMO.

This is true.

However, Tuluk is also a culture which seems to have more respect for elves then any other location in the world (except within an elven tribe). In Allanak, the Jaxa Pah can get a lot of influence, but generally (not always) it tends to be more behind the scenes.

In Tuluk, the Akai Sjirr have been some of the most influential and even publicly respected people in the city. Tuluk also has elven bards (which may or may not also be Akai Sjirr) which have their own Circle. That means there are Bards and Masterbards of Rusarla, and they would have more rank and influence then a lot of PCs.

Are there subtleties there? Sure. Is that going to stop the fact that PC elves have the potential to and in the past have gotten to levels of influence past most (if not all) of the PC human commoner population? Not at all.

IMO, it's about respecting and appreciating art and usefulness. It's not because they are elves. When it comes to art, all races have the same cultural opportunities to rise in rank whether it is as a thief, assassin, bard or artisan. It's important to keep in mind that just because you've codedly mastered a skill doesn't mean you're a master in the eyes of society.

I think you're wrong about the Akai Sjir being that influential and respected, but it'd be going into IC details to discuss it so I think we'll have to leave that for another time. Same with the part about influential PCs rising above human commoner PCs.

I'd say that due to their focus on art (primarily stoneworking) the Akai elves have a better chance at being appreciated and valued, but it won't be for their sharp ears - it'd be for the artwork. That's not to say it's impossible for an individual elf or the tribe in general to gain some measure of respect.

Akai Sjir artisans would also have a hard time competing with artisans from House Kadius and House Tenneshi - two organizations known to have the best artisans in Tuluk, and they are almost exclusively human.

[racurtne]

Keep reading please.

Although technically they were considered an honored class, the farmers lived under a crushing tax burden for much of the feudal era.

During the reign of the third Tokugawa shogun, Iemitsu, farmers were not allowed to eat any of the rice they grew. They had to hand it all over to their daimyo, and then wait for him to give some back as charity.

The fact that they honored them in name but crushed them in practice is exactly why they have the saying that I referenced above. So what was your whoa there about?

Well, I felt like it needed to be pointed out that they were in fact, supposed to be respected. They at least pay lip-service to it, which is something above completely disrespecting them.

I don't feel it's alike. These are farmers who are supposed to be respected that aren't. Those elves aren't supposed to be. They are respected (at least more than other elves) in spite of their obvious racial handicap.

[musashi]

Japanese farmers were supposed to be respected for being farmers, but they weren't because they were poor peasants.

Akai in the north are supposed to be respected because they're fine craftsman, but they aren't because they're elves.

These seem fairly comparable to me.

But even if they're not perfectly comparable, the dissonance a culture can embrace regarding appreciating their artwork while not appreciating the artists who made it is I think a perfectly acceptable way to rationalize why you can still hate on elves in the north even if they make nice statues.

[racurtne]

Japanese farmers were supposed to be respected for being farmers, but they weren't because they were poor peasants.

Elves in the north are supposed to be respected because they're fine craftsman, but they aren't because they're else.

These seem fairly comparable to me.

I'm seeing your angle more clearly now. I thought you were comparing these in a slightly different fashion.

As I said. These elves are respected (to some small degree more than the common rabble) in spite of being elves because they are craftsmen.

In turn, these farmers are respected (in a small, lip-service sort of way) in spite of being dirt poor and defenseless, just because they are involved in such an important industry.

Gotcha. *thumbs up*

EDIT:

But even if they're not perfectly comparable, the dissonance a culture can embrace regarding appreciating their artwork while not appreciating the artists who made it is I think a perfectly acceptable way to rationalize why you can still hate on elves in the north even if they make nice statues.

Agreed. I'm seeing it now. (see above) I was having problems with farmers because they are supposed to be high on the ladder, whereas elves are not. It's just that the elves aren't respected just because they are elves. The farmers aren't respected because they just plain don't have to be.

[BleakOne]

As for influence for elves, they certainly can gain a large amount of that. They can gain it in the behind-the-scenes way. 'Rinth elf crimelords can make a much more respectable human humbled with bribes, threats and subterfuge done correctly. Nothing stops elves from equalling or surpassing humans in levels of wealth, connections, and such in either city state. It's just a good deal harder for them.

I just don't see a primarily elven organization ever being truly respected by the largely racist human-run society. As others have said, they make fine works that highborn may show off inside their estates or in public, but that doesn't change the fact that they are elves. Nobody wants to be friends, or known to be friends with them. It's culturally 'eww', like being friendly to breeds.

Like with the gemmed in Allanak. They may likely by more useful to the Powers That Be than commoner Amos, and may get work, pay and some level of influence from their usefulness, but they will never, ever be equal to an untainted human. At best they can hope to be considered, for lack of a better term, A Credit To Their Species.

[musashi]

Agreed. I'm seeing it now. (see above) I was having problems with farmers because they are supposed to be high on the ladder, whereas elves are not. It's just that the elves aren't respected just because they are elves. The farmers aren't respected because they just plain don't have to be.

Well try looking at it this way; in Tuluk artisans are supposed to be high on the ladder. The Akai, while being artisans, are not, because they also happen to be elves. And you just plain don't have to respect elves.

I also pretty much agree with what BleakOne one wrote. A noble might comission a work from the Akai and show it off, but they should be framing it in conversation more like "Oh yeah you know the elves ... they came begging to carve my likeness in stone and look they didn't do a half bad job it's actually quite lovely." -- even if the reality is that the noble got taken blind for that comission, and had to do them some favors discreetly on top.

[racurtne]

Agreed. I'm seeing it now. (see above) I was having problems with farmers because they are supposed to be high on the ladder, whereas elves are not. It's just that the elves aren't respected just because they are elves. The farmers aren't respected because they just plain don't have to be.

Well try looking at it this way; in Tuluk artisans are supposed to be high on the ladder. The Akai, while being artisans, are not, because they also happen to be elves. And you just plain don't have to respect elves.

I also pretty much agree with what BleakOne one wrote. A noble might comission a work from the Akai and show it off, but they should be framing it in conversation more like "Oh yeah you know the elves ... they came begging to carve my likeness in stone and look they didn't do a half bad job it's actually quite lovely." -- even if the reality is that the noble got taken blind for that comission, and had to do them some favors discreetly on top.

I'm just going to bold that and hope you see that you are repeating precisely what I said there and here...

These elves are respected (to some small degree more than the common rabble) in spite of being elves because they are craftsmen (and craftsmen are respected).

The exception being that which I crossed out, because that's just not true. It's not that you should and don't because you don't have to. It's that they are non-human and therefore undeserving of it.

Point being, I got it. I'm clear on my stance here.

[musashi]

It sounds like toying with semantics to me.

You should respect this group of poor defenseless peasants in feudal Japan because they are farmers, and farmers deserve respect in feudal Japanese culture. But you don't, because they're poor defenseless peasants, and thus undeserving of it.
You should respect this group of elves in Tuluk because they're artisans, and artisans deserve respect in Tuluki culture. But you don't, because they're elves, and thus undeserving of it.

I get that you're saying you think they should be deserving of some small measure of respect because they're artisans despite them also being elves. But that's precisely what I'm contesting.

Despite being farmers, poor defenseless peasants in feudal Japan got zero respect. You said they got lip service respect ... but lip service is ... insincere support or respect expressed but not put into practice... literally by definition.

And likewise, I think it's totally appropriate for elves in Tuluk to get the same kind of treatment, despite also being skilled artisans that the city makes use of. I'm all for them maintaining a power base behind the scenes as elves are typically want to do in the game, but I disagree with the notion that their being good artisans obviously has to make them more respected than common human rabble. Want to pay them lip service, but treat them like shit in practice? Awesome! Game on.

Being farmers didn't help poor peasants overcome that hurdle in Japan.
Being artisans doesn't have to help elves overcome that hurdle in Tuluk.

[racurtne]

It sounds like toying with semantics to me.

You should respect this group of poor defenseless peasants in feudal Japan because they are farmers, and farmers deserve respect in feudal Japanese culture. But you don't, because they're poor defenseless peasants, and thus undeserving of it.
You should respect this group of elves in Tuluk because they're artisans, and artisans deserve respect in Tuluki culture. But you don't, because they're elves, and thus undeserving of it.

I get that you're saying you think they should be deserving of some small measure of respect because they're artisans despite them also being elves. But that's precisely what I'm contesting.

Despite being farmers, poor defenseless peasants in feudal Japan got zero respect. You said they got lip service respect ... but lip service is ... insincere support or respect expressed but not put into practice... literally by definition.

And likewise, I think it's totally appropriate for elves in Tuluk to get the same kind of treatment, despite also being skilled artisans that the city makes use of. I'm all for them maintaining a power base behind the scenes as elves are typically want to do in the game, but I disagree with the notion that there being good artisans obviously has to make them more respected than common human rabble.

Being farmers didn't help poor peasants overcome that hurdle in Japan.
Being artisans doesn't have to help elves overcome that hurdle in Tuluk.

Can you please be less obtuse? I agreed with you.  

Edit: Oh, I meant common elf rabble. Anyway, as I said, I agreed. I'm out.

[musashi]

Ahah. Yes if you meant common elf rabble, we are not disagreeing.

Well then. Good.

[Barzalene]

I think that probably any human citizen who is not a slave or known criminal would pretty much always be above elves. Human commoner beats elf artisan. One is an artist, yes, but Tuluk isn't simply 'art trumps all'.

A high-ranking elf in a respectable clan who is also a citizen would probably be valued above a foreigner human. Probably. Unless the human was accepted for some useful purpose (trade, perhaps). Tulukis aren't so subtle they forget that elves are sneaky, thieving scum with little to no value to honest folk. They just don't tell elves that every time they see them.

My thought is that rank is not a static phenomenon. In some things that elf will be given the preference conferred by his accomplishment and in other things he will not.

If you were to have an art event that elf might get a better place or time frame. You might pay that elf more for his work than you'd pay that unaccomplished human. Their opinion on some matters might bear more weight than some random hunter or new salarri trader. But when you throw a small dinner party? When you look to hire someone you work closely with? When conferring some actual sort of power and you're opening yourself up and leaving yourself vulnerable? Then it's different isn't it?

I'm late to the party here. It's all been said. Sorry

[Cutthroat]

Being an elf or having some other undesirable trait would be like having a handicap. If a character's total social influence were a simple numeric value (I think it's way more complicated, but for the sake of argument), being an elf would give negative points. An elf may rise high in Rusarla Circle or the Akai Sjir but they will never be able to clean the stain of being an elf off of them. The same goes for any non-human race in any of the clans in Tuluk. Being an independent and/or a foreigner leaves them with even worse prospects. You can find something about them (e.g. their art) to respect as said above, and you can respect the actual person as much as you would a far less influential human. I think that's probably the most practical way to reconcile the chaotic Tuluki social ladder with biases that are Known World-wide (the hatred of lesser races).

It takes good players of non-humans to enforce that on themselves, and good players of humans to enforce that on the non-human PCs. Chosen and Faithful leaders have a particular duty to set an example, but everyone needs to follow through. The tricky part is that it's Tuluk, so what might look like happiness and friendship could actually be a veneer to cover something behind the scenes. It's better for players to assume that players are doing this right and to play it out correctly themselves (or even better, actually go behind the scenes themselves and seriously play in that dark side of Tuluk), than to suspect that players are bungling this. (Not that that has happened in this thread, I'm just saying it as a tip - because it can be really difficult to follow another PC's example in Tuluk, because of that veneer I mentioned earlier.)

[greasygemo]

Being an elf or having some other undesirable trait would be like having a handicap. If a character's total social influence were a simple numeric value (I think it's way more complicated, but for the sake of argument), being an elf would give negative points.

^ That makes me wish I was really good at math because I would totally try to build a Tuluki-respectometer. 

[AmandaGreathouse]

I feel like the Akai are accorded and undue amount of trust and respect by those in power.

That's really all I have to say on topic, except that I think it's a shame that I've seen numerous occasions where someone has chosen an elf over a human in situations where there were 2 individuals that were otherwise equal.

I know all the circumstances around it. I still think it's crap.

It has, thankfully, tapered off, with the death of a certain someone.

I would still like to see them looked down on more publicly.

Last thing the tree huggers need is the accolade necker lover as well.

Edit: I don't even.

[musashi]

Let's try and steer clear of calling out specific characters, no matter how vague.

[Harmless]

Musashi: I promise I am not referring to any specific individuals here:

Hey, if I was rich guy hiring help in Tuluk, I might consider the elf because they're a worthless necker, who will naturally respect my roundeared authoritah, whereas that roundeared option might try and one-up me and beat me out in the end.

No matter how much money I give that necker to help me, he'll never rise up in society, because he's a damn necker! Easy to handle, know what you're paying for. There's just the small matter of keeping his dirty necker hands off my personal belongings, which is why I hire Amos here to keep an eye on things.... now we're all good.

I don't think elves in Tuluk are a problem. Some people are very "nice" to them, but we all know what Tuluki "niceness" means...

As for the noobs, they'll eventually learn why elves stay low on the social ladder, *violently.* Their first Tuluki commoner or two might be really nice to elves, but before long they'll get it. It's all part of the Tuluki learning curve.

[Nyr]

I've converted the page to a helpfile.  I am working on a way to display the chart now.

[Nyr]

http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Tuluki%20Social%20Hierarchy

[palomar]

http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Tuluki%20Social%20Hierarchy

Awesome.

Two things: It says under Societal Castes that the High Precentor is a Lirathan, and then further down the page under Additional Notes that the HP is a Jihaen. It also says Atum Negean is the HP, but it should be Ardith Lyksae, as far as I know.

[Nyr]

Thanks--fixed!

[Teal]

Artisan

The artisan caste consists of the elite of the other two common castes. Included in the artisan caste are master crafters, ranked Circle bards of Bard rank or above with noble or templar partisanship, extremely accomplished assassins and thieves with noble or templar partisanship and accomplished artisans of other disciplines that can show sufficient support.

I think this section needs to be updated.

[Nyr]

Why?  Because extremely accomplished assassins and thieves would (by definition) not necessarily be known?

[Teal]

Why?  Because extremely accomplished assassins and thieves would (by definition) not necessarily be known?

No, I'm fine with that! Accomplished Assassins are known to who it's important to have know them. I was thinking that the Circle Bard portion in relationship to patrons is outdated.

Also, I haven't said it yet, but thanks for the quick work adding this! I'm not trying to instantly go "rawr, nitpick!". I think it's great that there can be a thread and staff read and respond to update the documentation, especially when it's this fast. 

[Nyr]

No, I'm fine with that! Accomplished Assassins are known to who it's important to have know them. I was thinking that the Circle Bard portion in relationship to patrons is outdated.

Oh, right.  Good catch, I wasn't seeing what you were saying!  Fixed!

[Teal]

No, I'm fine with that! Accomplished Assassins are known to who it's important to have know them. I was thinking that the Circle Bard portion in relationship to patrons is outdated.

Oh, right.  Good catch, I wasn't seeing what you were saying!  Fixed!

Sweet!

[Nyr]

I've made a few more formatting changes to make the doc easier to read.

[Taven]

The doc update is awesome.

I'm going to continue with the discussion...

Hey, if I was rich guy hiring help in Tuluk, I might consider the elf because they're a worthless necker, who will naturally respect my roundeared authoritah, whereas that roundeared option might try and one-up me and beat me out in the end.

No matter how much money I give that necker to help me, he'll never rise up in society, because he's a damn necker! Easy to handle, know what you're paying for. There's just the small matter of keeping his dirty necker hands off my personal belongings, which is why I hire Amos here to keep an eye on things.... now we're all good.

I don't think elves in Tuluk are a problem. Some people are very "nice" to them, but we all know what Tuluki "niceness" means...

As for the noobs, they'll eventually learn why elves stay low on the social ladder, *violently.* Their first Tuluki commoner or two might be really nice to elves, but before long they'll get it. It's all part of the Tuluki learning curve.

Emphasis mine.

You know for sure that a necker is going to try to rob, steal, and otherwise cheat you blind. Elves do not have respect for human authority. The only exception would be, perhaps, something like Chosen and Faithful, but that is independent of race, that is simply because they are where the city has power.

You hire an elf for your needs because you say that you can't trust the human and then hire "Amos" to guard your things. Is Amos a human? If he is, that completely undermines your entire argument.

Furthermore, by going to elves for all of your needs, you are giving them power. You're saying that you value their craft and artistry more then a human's, by virtue of hiring them. Is there a reason to hire an elf for something sometime? Sure, sometimes there is. Should you be picking elves over humans because you think humans are out to get you? My answer would be no.

[Taven]

IMO, it's about respecting and appreciating art and usefulness. It's not because they are elves. When it comes to art, all races have the same cultural opportunities to rise in rank whether it is as a thief, assassin, bard or artisan. It's important to keep in mind that just because you've codedly mastered a skill doesn't mean you're a master in the eyes of society.

I think you're wrong about the Akai Sjir being that influential and respected, but it'd be going into IC details to discuss it so I think we'll have to leave that for another time. Same with the part about influential PCs rising above human commoner PCs.

I'd say that due to their focus on art (primarily stoneworking) the Akai elves have a better chance at being appreciated and valued, but it won't be for their sharp ears - it'd be for the artwork. That's not to say it's impossible for an individual elf or the tribe in general to gain some measure of respect.

Akai Sjir artisans would also have a hard time competing with artisans from House Kadius and House Tenneshi - two organizations known to have the best artisans in Tuluk, and they are almost exclusively human.

It is less prevalent, currently, but as far as I know, historically it's been a big thing.

I am saying that because of their focus in stone, they are appreciated regardless of their sharpears.

If you look at public creations of art in Tuluk by PCs within the last 4 RL years, how many of those have been Tenneshi-made pieces, how many have been Kadius-made pieces, and how many have been Akai-made pieces? I think the answer to this shows a lot. The question itself says a lot, too.

[Norcal]

It is not only becasue of their stone work that the Akai have a bit higher social standing in Tuluk, than other elves do. There are some other important reasons that the more prominent members of Tuluki society would be aware of. If you don't already know the reasons and this really interests you, it is not too difficult to find out IC.

[Jeshin]

More importantly... Why haven't some of these posts been moderated? Staff?

[greasygemo]

Tuluk makes people 154% more angry than an average GDB topic. 

[musashi]

Does seem that way huh?

[RogueGunslinger]

Making me want to roll up my first Merchant in Tuluk.

[Kismetic]

To be fair, it's a conversation that includes both elves and Tuluk.  If we somehow worked bards into it, there's a true recipe for disaster.

[Molten Heart]

To be fair, it's a conversation that includes both elves and Tuluk.  If we somehow worked bards into it, there's a true recipe for disaster.

If we make the bards magickers, you know... like a performing rock band named Ruk, Whira and Suk-Krath (because that'd be both cool and outrageous, especially in Tuluk) this way we can really get this thread fired up before we send it kicking and screaming over the Shield Wall.

[Cutthroat]

I like the doc updates. I think they clarify a few things that were a bit murky in the early part of the thread.

[Malifaxis]

I like the doc updates. I think they clarify a few things that were a bit murky in the early part of the thread.

Upvote.

[Irulan]

I like the doc updates. I think they clarify a few things that were a bit murky in the early part of the thread.

Agreed. Tuluk has a learning curve to it. There is a lot to take in and it just depends on the player if 1) they enjoy the environment enough to put in the effort to get good at it and 2) how long it takes to figure some of it out. Wonderful to see some updated docs to take a little of the headache out.

Wading into the debate a bit about Tuluki elves and the Akai seems a little bit toxic at this point, but my take on it remains that the Akai are elves, they are -always- regarded with elf-colored glasses. But they can make some neat stuff, and that makes them useful to the society as a whole and they do garner some respect because of it....but they are still elves and they are likely trying to cheat/rob you blind. My -very- brief stint playing in the Akai Sjirr a few years ago made that very clear. They are always looking for an angle, a way to play you, extort you/get the drop on (human) you. And most humans still treated them like that was what they were trying to do. It is a neat aspect to Tuluki culture that elves can play out an existence that isn't quite as straightforward as other elven roles.

The other social castes in Tuluk are kinda similar. It depends on your contributions to the society which part of the ladder you will fall on, no matter which different category they fall into. Templars, Chosen, Artisans, Merchants: depending on what their individual accomplishments and contributions to the society will be, they will have more or less pull, it is a fluid thing. Certain things will add to your social upward pull, and things will count against it. Befriending elves/foreigners/being blunt/causing barfights will all have a negative impact on your social ladder while contributing witty sarcastic subtle snark/artistic contributions/a well done assassination/well done pickpocketing will all contribute to upward social mobility of the ladder.

I think sometimes people have trouble when the lines are blurred. Things in Tuluk tend to be a grey area. Wait...sometimes elves aren't the complete dirt on the bottom of my shoe? Well, they can be Artisans, so no, not completely if they are contributing things to the Society. Their individual accomplishments will merit them a bit of leeway as far as how far down or up they are compared to other people.

[musashi]

It seems like all of that could be said of the Jaxa Pah or the Sun Runners as well. I'm not sure where the part that makes the Akai special is, honestly.

[RogueGunslinger]

It seems like all of that could be said of the Jaxa Pah or the Sun Runners as well. I'm not sure where the part that makes the Akai special is, honestly.

In light of all this ATV love I went and read their clan-blurb.... I come away with it that they are... Desert Elf Hippies.

[Nyr]

More importantly... Why haven't some of these posts been moderated? Staff?

More importantly...why hasn't anyone actually reported the thread to staff via the request tool?

I moderated it and threw out the bans. Do not flame other players even if you are trying to be coy about it. If you didn't mean to, choose your words more carefully in the future. If someone flames you, report it. Do not respond. It just exacerbates the problem.

[RogueGunslinger]

More importantly... Why haven't some of these posts been moderated? Staff?

More importantly...why hasn't anyone actually reported the thread to staff via the request tool?

If the report function isn't directly linked to the forum post, people are generally just going to be to lazy to ever use it.

I always forget the request tool is even an option for this.

[Nyr]

Well. Laziness will just get people banned, I guess.

We do want to fix that but we need to move the board to do it. That particular function, she is broke!

[LauraMars]

Wait, so are you saying that the "report to moderator" link on the forum posts doesn't work?

[Riya OniSenshi]

Wait, so are you saying that the "report to moderator" link on the forum posts doesn't work?

Correct.

[LauraMars]

oh, I had no clue.  thanks

I seem to remember it working a few years ago.

[MeTekillot]

I remember kanks a few years ago 

[Delirium]

I don't miss kanks. Next up: beetle plague.