Tuluki social hierarchy: discuss!

[Red Ranger]

It's a worthy discussion!  It's appropriate to disagree OOC'ly and IC'ly about some aspects of culture in the game.  It happens in RL.  For instance, the ancient Romans debated about Roman social institutions and culture and modern Americans disagree all the time about American culture: guns and religion anyone?

So again, here's the link to the old Tuluki social hiearchy table.  Take it away!

Edit: by way of explanation, I created this new thread to redirect the derail of this thread.

[Riya OniSenshi]

I'm pretty sure staff said that that thing is just sort of a guideline.

It's been awhile since I read the old threads about it, though, so I may be misremembering.

[Cutthroat]

It's a good guideline, but Tuluki societal structure is probably more fluid than it would seem from just looking at the table. Some of the groups on the table (Independent Commoner, Poet's Circle Apprentice, Chosen Family Member, the bottommost rank of the templars, and probably some others) are so big that there have to be gradations within them, for the sake of practicality and player conflict. It's also implicit that Chosen and Faithful are always above commoners and slaves, even if some of those ranks appear on the same level on the table.

[Barzalene]

I think it's fine that beginner bards have an inflated sense of their own importance, but I think that if they want power they should have to do the leg work, the same way everyone else starts at the bottom and gets ahead on favors or merit.

[Red Ranger]

I'm pretty sure staff said that that thing is just sort of a guideline.

It's been awhile since I read the old threads about it, though, so I may be misremembering.

I personally totally agree.  It's a guideline.  I personally also think that there are many other modifiers to social status that can be very important depending on the situation.  I've previously highlighted a few that I think are important here and here.

[Riya OniSenshi]

I'm pretty sure staff said that that thing is just sort of a guideline.

It's been awhile since I read the old threads about it, though, so I may be misremembering.

I personally totally agree.  It's a guideline.  I personally also think that there are many other modifiers to social status that can be very important depending on the situation.  I've previously highlighted a few that I think are important here and here.

Agreed.

I think it's fine that beginner bards have an inflated sense of their own importance, but I think that if they want power they should have to do the leg work, the same way everyone else starts at the bottom and gets ahead on favors or merit.

Could we please stay on topic and not make this an "I Hate Bards" thread? I know they're due up in the cycle soon, but please go make another thread if planning to post such. And I'm talking to everyone reading this, not just Barzalene.

[Barzalene]

Wasn't meant to be I hate bards, but rather a response to comments in the original thread. I don't hate bards. I think it's topical as it speaks to fluidity and geadiation within castes.

[Son of Valhalla]

A noble and a templar are the same level at base rank?

[palomar]

A noble and a templar are the same level at base rank?

The Faithful caste is above the Chosen caste, but base level individuals start out at the same social ranking. Accomplishments, reputation etc differentiate members of the two castes (but also within the castes).

In public, everyone recognizes the importance of the appearance that the Nobility are polite to one another, if not friendly, and that the Nobility and Templarate work as an effective team.

Nobles are exempt from all laws of Tuluk, with the exception of rioting or massing forces against the city-state. Thus, if a noble wishes to bear arms, or proceed to kill a commoner, then that is their perogative, as long as it is not against a member of the militia.

Nobles may ask favors of a templar, and in most cases, expect it to be granted. The politics driving the requests can influence the results, and it's not unheard of for a templar to outright refuse a noble with whom she or he is irritated. Generally, the Templarate are good about their duties to the nobility, though the lower-ranked templars are far more easily manipulated than those of high rank. Most templars come originally from noble houses, but most will disregard such ties, feeling their primary allegiance is, of course, to Muk Utep.

A templar may ask a noble to perform a favor or task for her or him. The noble is then obligated to follow the same rules as if the reverse had happened. In this way the nobility and templarate maintain the appearance of strength and unity, which are beneficial for all concerned. Should a single Templar go too far in failing to give proper respect to the nobility, or too frequently fail to do her or his job properly... accidents happen. And vice versa.

The paragraphs above explain some of the interdependence between nobles and templars.

[palomar]

Apprentices should be far down, because they still have everything left to prove (except being worthy of Circle membership). I've personally found the Seeker rank to be appropriately situated as it allows for both up- and downwards mobility and socially acceptable maneuvering towards peers or those perceived to be slightly above them in social rank. Most PCs an Apprentice or Seeker would encounter can be found in the same social ranks, or those directly above and below (save for nobles and templars).

I like this rank chart mostly because it shows that even unskilled slaves - of any race, are above unaffiliated foreigners. If you don't have the star (or slave tattoo) and the band, you're nothing (GMH employees and T'zai Byn Sergeants being the exceptions).

[Riev]

The only thing that gets me, as per the original discussion, is that Seeker PCs seem to be pretty rare. Like, they have to be alive for quite a while, win a lot of competitions that are usually spread out or rare. And yet, they're at about the same rank as a PC thats been around maybe 2 RL months who got a promotion to Corporal in His Legions.

I'm not saying so much that it should be different, but time invested for both social ranks seems a little out of proportion. It seems to be mirrored around a "2 IC year investment" for other clans, but I've known people that took much longer than that to be Seeker, and they really put forth the effort to try and get there.


Could it be that, in most other clans, there are leaders that can promote based on how you've performed, but as a Bard its up to how a staff member feels? No offense to staff intended, but they're more likely to say "What have YOU done" than someone who plays with you on a PC all the time.

[palomar]

Apprentice -> Seeker doesn't take very long, but probably requires more staff attention than clans where low-rank promotions are done by other PCs. Seeker -> Bard on the other hand... That takes a long time.

[Taven]

Please note that staff has said this chart is old and outdated.

GDB Reference of Rank Chart:

(For your convenience and ease - original can be found here)

Exalted	Templar	Surif Noble	Hlum Noble	Artisan	Merchant	Legions	Commoner	Slave
(Faithful Caste)	(Faithful Caste)	(Chosen Caste)	(Chosen Caste)	(Common Caste)	(Common Caste)	(Common Caste)	(Common Caste)	(Slave Caste)
The Sun King	---	---	---	---	---	---	---	---
High Precentor	---	---	---	---	---	---	---	---
Lirathan Precentor, Jihaen Precentor, Inquisitors	---	---	---	---	---	---	---	---
---	Lirathuan Sect Mistress, Jihaen Knight Templar	Chosen House Head	---	---	---	---	---	---
---	Lirathan High Templar, Jihaen High Templar	Chosen Senior Family Member	---	---	House Head (GMH)	---	---	---
---	Lirathan, Jihaen	Chosen Family Member	Hlum Chosen	---	---	Legions General (commoner)	---	---
---	---	---	---	Circle Leader (bard)	---	Legions Colonel (commoner)	---	---
---	---	---	---	Masterbard (bard)	---	Legions Captain	---	---
---	---	---	Hlum Family (reverts on Hlum death)	Master Artisan, Master Assassin	Senior Merchant (GMH)	Legions Lieutenant	Senior Employees of Chosen/Faithful	---
---	---	---	---	Bard (bard), Accomplished Artisan, Accomplished Assassin, Master Thief	Merchant (GMH), Lieutenant (Byn)	Legions Sergeant	Mid-ranked Employees of Chosen/Faithful	Ranked Lyksaen Warriors, Master Artisan Slaves, Ranked Legion Slaves
---	---	---	---	---	Junior Merchant (GMH), Sergeant (Byn)	Legions Corporal	Seeker (bard), Junior Employees of Chosen/Faithful	Ranked House Slaves, Artisan Slaves
---	---	---	---	---	Entry Level Employees	Legions Private	Apprentice (bard)	Chosen/Faithful Personal Slaves
---	---	---	---	---	---	Legions Recruit	Independent Commoner	Skilled Slave
---	---	---	---	---	---	---	---	Unskilled Slave

There are four main societal castes in Tuluk:

   1. Faithful
   2. Chosen
   3. Commoner
   4. Slave

Tuluki society further breaks these categories down into the following subdivisions of caste:

1. Faithful

   I. Exalted
   II. Templar

2. Chosen

   I. Surif Noble
   II. Hlum Noble

3. Commoner

   I. Artisan
   II. Merchant
   III. Commoner

4. Slave

   I. Slave

A Note on Foreigners - Foreigners and non-citizens not employed by a merchant house are not part of the caste system, but for the purposes of social class would be ranked below independent commoners. This table is inclusive of all citizens of any race.

A Note on independent organizations - Independent organizations that are not tied to a city-state but do fall into the place of a merchant house are usually lumped into the "Merchant" subgroup if they are deemed successful and influential enough. A group of hunters would not fall into this category, but a self-made, established organization complete with some sort of noble, templar, or GMH sponsorship would.

[Taven]

Other considerations beyond caste include:

1) Employment and rank: Templarate or Surif employment being most important
2) Patronage: Templarate or Surif patronage being most important
3) Other known associations with the Faithful and Chosen
4) Public accomplishments: including festival victories or proof of excellence in one's "art"
5) Public embarrassments
6) Longevity
7) Location: public area or private? Which Tuluki faction controls that area?

...To name just a few.

Red Ranger already brought up this post, but I thought it was worth quoting directly here. I think that the rank table absolutely cannot be considered without these. The thing about the caste system is your actual power and influence are dependent on a lot of other things. I'd even include "clan activeness" as a player-specific consideration.

A lot of influence comes from how much your clan can either back you up (in the case of an employee or member), or how much your underlings can do for you (in the case of an employer). You can be the employee of a Chosen or Faithful, for example, but it may not matter if that Chosen/Faithful isn't around to support you. Likewise, if you are a Chosen or Faithful, you're going to have a lot more influence (being able to accomplish things) if you have people to work with. It may not even be employees. Let's say that Chosen Lady X puts a lot of time developing relations with Merchant House Y, through their active PC leader. Suddenly, that PC goes inactive. Chosen Lady X may have helped out Merchant House Y a lot, but if they can't use them as a source, it's going to limit their influence/power.

Please note that all of these examples are general and theoretical and are not intended to offend.

[musashi]

There is no such thing as a Legions General (commoner).

The legions have one general, at the very top, and it's the Jihaen Precentor by default.

Other than that,

A noble and a templar are the same level at base rank?

I don't think this chart was meant to just be read from top to bottom, it's arranged left to right as well, and for a reason. The further to the left side of the row the person is, the more they out rank the people to the right of them, even if they're on the same row.

So for example, a Hlum noble isn't on the same level as a Surif noble, and a Surif noble isn't on the same level as a Templar.
A skilled slave isn't on the same level as a commoner ... Etc.

[Dakota]

Read that foreigners? If you ain't inked and ain't employed, you're dirt.

Actually to make a more serious point, while I -do- see foreigners get -some- flak in Tuluk from citizens... I see a lot of people fawn over tribals (non-inked) and other non-inked clans that are not GMH... I keep wondering if they fall under this 'outsider' 'rank' (as I believe they should)...


and this...

I don't think this chart was meant to just be read from top to bottom, it's arranged left to right as well, and for a reason...

...a Hlum noble isn't on the same level as a Surif noble, and a Surif noble isn't on the same level as a Templar.
A skilled slave isn't on the same level as a commoner ... Etc.

[racurtne]

Do band-inked, but non-citizen count as foreign? I'm sort of assuming they fall in between.

[Taven]

There is no such thing as a Legions General (commoner).

The legions have one general, at the very top, and it's the Jihaen Precentor by default.

I was wondering about that, but that's the chart as it was last updated. Right now, the Colonel is lower then the Jihaen rank, and is in the commoner caste section.

I don't think this chart was meant to just be read from top to bottom, it's arranged left to right as well, and for a reason. The further to the left side of the row the person is, the more they out rank the people to the right of them, even if they're on the same row.

So for example, a Hlum noble isn't on the same level as a Surif noble, and a Surif noble isn't on the same level as a Templar.
A skilled slave isn't on the same level as a commoner ... Etc.

You make a good point. I'd included most of the chart but less of the text, but the text supports this view. I have updated the GDB Reference Rank Chart to include this text.

[Delirium]

On the tribal note, any status-conscious citizen would likely limit their fraternizing to trade and loose friendship. Sleeping with a dirty foreigner is just ew. Might as well be jumping an elf.

[palomar]

Do band-inked, but non-citizen count as foreign? I'm sort of assuming they fall in between.

They are off the chart, but generally considered more valuable/useful than those without the band tattoo. People who aren't citizens but have the band tattoo usually come from groups of people/tribes that provide something to Tuluk's benefit as hunters, grebbers etc.

Human and elven tribes (Seik, Arabet, Muark, Sun Runners, Soh etc) are considered outsiders and foreigners. Some tribes or individual tribemembers may have higher/lower standing than others, due to historical reasons. Most people wouldn't be aware of the details. Elves are elves and desert elves aren't even civilized like those we have at home, and human tribals... hide your babies.

[racurtne]

Do band-inked, but non-citizen count as foreign? I'm sort of assuming they fall in between.

They are off the chart, but generally considered more valuable/useful than those without the band tattoo. People who aren't citizens but have the band tattoo usually come from groups of people/tribes that provide something to Tuluk's benefit as hunters, grebbers etc.

Human and elven tribes (Seik, Arabet, Muark, Sun Runners, Soh etc) are considered outsiders and foreigners. Some tribes or individual tribemembers may have higher/lower standing than others, due to historical reasons. Most people wouldn't be aware of the details. Elves are elves and desert elves aren't even civilized like those we have at home, and human tribals... hide your babies.

This is what I thought, thank you for the clarification.

[musashi]

There is no such thing as a Legions General (commoner).

The legions have one general, at the very top, and it's the Jihaen Precentor by default.

I was wondering about that, but that's the chart as it was last updated. Right now, the Colonel is lower then the Jihaen rank, and is in the commoner caste section.

I don't think this chart was meant to just be read from top to bottom, it's arranged left to right as well, and for a reason. The further to the left side of the row the person is, the more they out rank the people to the right of them, even if they're on the same row.

So for example, a Hlum noble isn't on the same level as a Surif noble, and a Surif noble isn't on the same level as a Templar.
A skilled slave isn't on the same level as a commoner ... Etc.

You make a good point. I'd included most of the chart but less of the text, but the text supports this view. I have updated the GDB Reference Rank Chart to include this text.

The other thing on that chart's source page that's out of date Taven, is the High Precentor reference. The Lirathan Order is no longer the leading order in Tuluk. The current High Precentor is a Jihaen. Ardith Lkysae, if memory serves.

[Taven]

Read that foreigners? If you ain't inked and ain't employed, you're dirt.

Actually to make a more serious point, while I -do- see foreigners get -some- flak in Tuluk from citizens... I see a lot of people fawn over tribals (non-inked) and other non-inked clans that are not GMH... I keep wondering if they fall under this 'outsider' 'rank' (as I believe they should)...

Well, actual influence wise, tribals can have a lot of influence. Take the gypsies, for example. They may be outside of the Tuluki caste system, but if they're looked on highly by Chosen and Faithful who make use of them (for their skills, goods, or what have you), then they're going to have a lot more influence.

You also need to remember that a high-ranked tribal of other tribes may have more influence then you think. Why? Because they're contributing to the Tuluki economy. There is an entire Qynar devoted to the sale of tribal goods. Generally, I don't think you see too many (any?) PC tribals of rank where they could influence that, but it is something to consider.

I also don't think there are too many issues where a thing like the Tribal Market would matter overall. Because... If you push a tribal around in the Tooth, their tribe is going to go, "it's the city, it's their turf". You'd probably have to be excessively harassing them (in a way that would ruin their business or threaten the tribe) for them to actually do anything, or for them to have people listen to their concerns.

A Note on Foreigners - Foreigners and non-citizens not employed by a merchant house are not part of the caste system, but for the purposes of social class would be ranked below independent commoners. This table is inclusive of all citizens of any race.

Emphasis mine.

An "Accomplished Artisan" is ranked the same as a (rank) Bard and a Merchant (GMH). Note that does not mean Junior Merchant (GMH), but actual full merchant. Does this mean then that an Akai Sjirr crafter who has made an art piece (or a couple) in the city for someone, has that rank?

It would mean that yes, that elf is better then a Legions Corporal, Sergeant (byn), Seeker (bard), Junior Merchant (GMH), and Junior Employees of Faithful/Chosen.

[palomar]

There is no such thing as a Legions General (commoner).

The legions have one general, at the very top, and it's the Jihaen Precentor by default.

That is true, but I think the Legions are set up in a way that would technically allow for a commoner General. If it ever happened, they'd have the social rank position the chart indicates. The Order of Jihae and the Sun Legions are bound closely together now, and the reference to a commoner General would probably be an artifact from times when that wasn't necessarily the case (Old Tuluk).

[Taven]

The other thing on that chart's source page that's out of date Taven, is the High Precentor reference. The Lirathan Order is no longer the leading order in Tuluk. The current High Precentor is a Jihaen. Ardith Lkysae, if memory serves.

Yes, this is true. I left it as "High Precentor" on my GDB post for that reason, since eventually it'll probably change again. It seems more important to note that the position exists, rather then who currently has it.

I can update it with a note if you'd like all I same.