Tuluki social hierarchy: discuss!

[palomar]

Taven, it's important to remember that there are human tribes in Tuluk where all members are citizens. A lot of the tribals in that qynar will be citizens, though their tribal ways surely attract non-citizen tribals to trade there as well. Both of the band-but-no-star tribals kind, and tribals from more distant lands.

[Taven]

Human and elven tribes (Seik, Arabet, Muark, Sun Runners, Soh etc) are considered outsiders and foreigners. Some tribes or individual tribemembers may have higher/lower standing than others, due to historical reasons. Most people wouldn't be aware of the details. Elves are elves and desert elves aren't even civilized like those we have at home, and human tribals... hide your babies.

Taven, it's important to remember that there are human tribes in Tuluk where all members are citizens. A lot of the tribals in that qynar will be citizens, though their tribal ways surely attract non-citizen tribals to trade there as well. Both of the band-but-no-star tribals kind, and tribals from more distant lands.

The tribal market has a mix of a lot of tribes. As you pointed out in your other post (quoted above), there are tribes that have higher and lower standing. There are tribes that are more connected to Tuluk and tribes that are less connected. At the same time, some of the tribes you listed as outsiders and forginers do have representation in Tuluk, including actual permanent shops or stalls.

Am I saying that makes all tribals super awesome, and they should be treated like citizens? Not at all! They're tribals and have strange tribal ways. At the same time, I think that a Tuluki's reaction to a tribal would be really different from an Allanaki's reaction. There are actual coded echoes about Sun Runners darting down the street outside the Sanctuary and everybody should be familiar with that tribal elf's loud hawk inside the Sanctuary.

[Hishn]

This chart has very outdated and incorrect information.

[palomar]

Human and elven tribes (Seik, Arabet, Muark, Sun Runners, Soh etc) are considered outsiders and foreigners. Some tribes or individual tribemembers may have higher/lower standing than others, due to historical reasons. Most people wouldn't be aware of the details. Elves are elves and desert elves aren't even civilized like those we have at home, and human tribals... hide your babies.

Taven, it's important to remember that there are human tribes in Tuluk where all members are citizens. A lot of the tribals in that qynar will be citizens, though their tribal ways surely attract non-citizen tribals to trade there as well. Both of the band-but-no-star tribals kind, and tribals from more distant lands.

The tribal market has a mix of a lot of tribes. As you pointed out in your other post (quoted above), there are tribes that have higher and lower standing. There are tribes that are more connected to Tuluk and tribes that are less connected. At the same time, some of the tribes you listed as outsiders and forginers do have representation in Tuluk, including actual permanent shops or stalls.

Am I saying that makes all tribals super awesome, and they should be treated like citizens? Not at all! They're tribals and have strange tribal ways. At the same time, I think that a Tuluki's reaction to a tribal would be really different from an Allanaki's reaction. There are actual coded echoes about Sun Runners darting down the street outside the Sanctuary and everybody should be familiar with that tribal elf's loud hawk inside the Sanctuary.

Non-citizen tribals would most likely be valued based on what they add to Tuluk through their presence there and their general relation to the city-state. For example, Sun Runners and Tan Muark bring trade first and foremost, and could also be appreciated due to being exotic. They have no social rank, but they could have a social standing based on how much favor they've worked up with the powers that be.

Tuluk has a tradition of appreciating and relating to tribal ways because the city-state was originally populated by tribals brought together by force by the Sun King, some of which have kept their roots and traditions fairly intact over time. Adding to the continued understanding and general appreciation of the concept of a tribe among the population of Tuluk is the fact that House Lyksae is very tribalistic. One could even argue that there are tribal touches to the Bards of the Poets' Circle, if you look at the individual Circles like families that together make up a tribal entity with elders (Masters and Circle leaders) in charge. Civilized, cultured and adapted, but still somewhat similar to a tribe.

[musashi]

An "Accomplished Artisan" is ranked the same as a (rank) Bard and a Merchant (GMH). Note that does not mean Junior Merchant (GMH), but actual full merchant. Does this mean then that an Akai Sjirr crafter who has made an art piece (or a couple) in the city for someone, has that rank?

It would mean that yes, that elf is better then a Legions Corporal, Sergeant (byn), Seeker (bard), Junior Merchant (GMH), and Junior Employees of Faithful/Chosen.

Again, a Merchant (GMH) is actually not ranked the same as a Bard or an acomplished artisan. The merchant is to the right of those two, and thus lower on the pole.

But, as Hishn, the chart is old and the information outdated.

[palomar]

This chart has very outdated and incorrect information.

That's understandable considering how old it is. Still, there's no other available overview document covering social rank, except for the distinction between the castes.

[Taven]

Non-citizen tribals would most likely be valued based on what they add to Tuluk through their presence there and their general relation to the city-state. For example, Sun Runners and Tan Muark bring trade first and foremost, and could also be appreciated due to being exotic. They have no social rank, but they could have a social standing based on how much favor they've worked up with the powers that be.

I'm talking about influence (or social standing, if you'd prefer). Technical rank really doesn't matter as much to me as influence or the actual power that someone has.

Tuluk has a tradition of appreciating and relating to tribal ways because the city-state was originally populated by tribals brought together by force by the Sun King, some of which have kept their roots and traditions fairly intact over time. Adding to the continued understanding and general appreciation of the concept of a tribe among the population of Tuluk is the fact that House Lyksae is very tribalistic. One could even argue that there are tribal touches to the Bards of the Poets' Circle, if you look at the individual Circles like families that together make up a tribal entity with elders (Masters and Circle leaders) in charge. Civilized, cultured and adapted, but still somewhat similar to a tribe.

Yep.

[BleakOne]

I think that in relation to race, in Zalanthas humans are nearly always considered superior to elves in the large cities. The exceptions would likely involve high-ranking elves in the few respectable clans that hire them, and especially low ranking humans (outsiders, slaves, ect).

In most cases, an elf citizen is lesser than a human one, considering the entire power structure of the city is made up entirely of humans, for the most part.

[Taven]

An "Accomplished Artisan" is ranked the same as a (rank) Bard and a Merchant (GMH). Note that does not mean Junior Merchant (GMH), but actual full merchant. Does this mean then that an Akai Sjirr crafter who has made an art piece (or a couple) in the city for someone, has that rank?

It would mean that yes, that elf is better then a Legions Corporal, Sergeant (byn), Seeker (bard), Junior Merchant (GMH), and Junior Employees of Faithful/Chosen.

Again, a Merchant (GMH) is actually not ranked the same as a Bard or an acomplished artisan. The merchant is to the right of those two, and thus lower on the pole.

But, as Hishn, the chart is old and the information outdated.

You're right, I keep forgetting the double ranking.

Revision of my previous statement, it would actually be:

• Bard (rank) on par with Accomplished Artisan on par with Accomplished Assassin on par with Master Thief
• Merchant (GMH) on par with Lieutenant (Byn)
• Legions Sergeant
• Mid-ranked Employees of Chosen/Faithful
• Ranked Lyksaen Warriors on par with Master Artisan Slaves on par with Ranked Legion Slaves

Which means that based on this chart the Akai Sjirr elf example would be higher rank then a Merchant (GMH) and a Legions Sergeant.

This chart has very outdated and incorrect information.

That's understandable considering how old it is. Still, there's no other available overview document covering social rank, except for the distinction between the castes.

I'll update the GDB Rank Chart Reference to note that.

Does staff have any comments on what the current state of things are? Or are there any plans to update the chart? You probably have a lot of other more pressing stuff on your plate right now, but I'm curious anyway.

[Red Ranger]

I think that in relation to race, in Zalanthas humans are nearly always considered superior to elves in the large cities. The exceptions would likely involve high-ranking elves in the few respectable clans that hire them, and especially low ranking humans (outsiders, slaves, ect).

In most cases, an elf citizen is lesser than a human one, considering the entire power structure of the city is made up entirely of humans, for the most part.

I agree.  IMO race would be another one of the modifiers to consider when "calculating" social status for commoners, but the racial modifiers can only be negative.  Human?  Negative zero.  Dwarf?  Negative one.  Elf?  Negative... much more than one.

Now IMO an elf can overcome that "negative" modifier conferred by their inferior race, but they need to do more than a comparable human would have to do in order to move up in status (serve the Chosen or Faithful more, more proof of mastery, more public victories, etc).  Similarly, other negative modifiers like public embarrassments would be harder for an elf to overcome compared to a human making the same faux pas, IMO.

[Taven]

I think that in relation to race, in Zalanthas humans are nearly always considered superior to elves in the large cities. The exceptions would likely involve high-ranking elves in the few respectable clans that hire them, and especially low ranking humans (outsiders, slaves, ect).

In most cases, an elf citizen is lesser than a human one, considering the entire power structure of the city is made up entirely of humans, for the most part.

I agree.  IMO race would be another one of the modifiers to consider when "calculating" social status for commoners, but the racial modifiers can only be negative.  Human?  Negative zero.  Dwarf?  Negative one.  Elf?  Negative... much more than one.

Now IMO an elf can overcome that "negative" modifier conferred by their inferior race, but they need to do more than a comparable human would have to do in order to move up in status (serve the Chosen or Faithful more, more proof of mastery, more public victories, etc).  Similarly, other negative modifiers like public embarrassments would be harder for an elf to overcome compared to a human making the same faux pas, IMO.

This is true.

However, Tuluk is also a culture which seems to have more respect for elves then any other location in the world (except within an elven tribe). In Allanak, the Jaxa Pah can get a lot of influence, but generally (not always) it tends to be more behind the scenes.

In Tuluk, the Akai Sjirr have been some of the most influential and even publicly respected people in the city. Tuluk also has elven bards (which may or may not also be Akai Sjirr) which have their own Circle. That means there are Bards and Masterbards of Rusarla, and they would have more rank and influence then a lot of PCs.

Are there subtleties there? Sure. Is that going to stop the fact that PC elves have the potential to and in the past have gotten to levels of influence past most (if not all) of the PC human commoner population? Not at all.

[Irulan]

This chart has very outdated and incorrect information.

That's understandable considering how old it is. Still, there's no other available overview document covering social rank, except for the distinction between the castes.

This seems to be part of the problem why people have so much trouble role playing a Tuluki? There are things that you can only learn by experience by being in Tuluk and playing around people that have been playing in Tuluk for a while. Doesn't' seem to be quite fair if people are attempting to role play according to the docs, but they get smacked down in game (or on the gdb) because the docs are outdated.  Still the general social structure should be relatively the same, even if some of the details are not up to date. And I think it helps to illustrate the the dynamics of the caste system that should be embedded in each Tuluki. I'm sure it isn't an obvious thing, but it should run through the mind of each Tuluki when they interact with someone else, what the other persons social status is, and how it relates to themselves. They may choose to ignore it for whatever reason, but it should at least be there.

[Riev]

I agree, Irulan. It can be very hard for someone who, reading most of the docs, understands that elves are terrible, disgusting thiefly liars that tell lies... and they're playing some Legionnaire Sergeant or a high-power GMH Merchant, but that "elf that once made a statue" is regarded higher than them, and they don't know why.

I know there's a lot of fluidity to it, and as discussed, there are many factors, but having something a little more firmed down might help Tuluki players understand their lot in life.

I mean. Why would I want to play a character thats is "only" a bardic-player, when I could play for a the same amount of time and have two more tiers of influence in the Legions or as *gasp* an elf?

[BleakOne]

I think that probably any human citizen who is not a slave or known criminal would pretty much always be above elves. Human commoner beats elf artisan. One is an artist, yes, but Tuluk isn't simply 'art trumps all'.

A high-ranking elf in a respectable clan who is also a citizen would probably be valued above a foreigner human. Probably. Unless the human was accepted for some useful purpose (trade, perhaps). Tulukis aren't so subtle they forget that elves are sneaky, thieving scum with little to no value to honest folk. They just don't tell elves that every time they see them.

[Bogre]

I agree, Irulan. It can be very hard for someone who, reading most of the docs, understands that elves are terrible, disgusting thiefly liars that tell lies... and they're playing some Legionnaire Sergeant or a high-power GMH Merchant, but that "elf that once made a statue" is regarded higher than them, and they don't know why.

I know there's a lot of fluidity to it, and as discussed, there are many factors, but having something a little more firmed down might help Tuluki players understand their lot in life.

I mean. Why would I want to play a character thats is "only" a bardic-player, when I could play for a the same amount of time and have two more tiers of influence in the Legions or as *gasp* an elf?

Is it really that difficult for players? Let's take the Akai Sjir, who are by the intro docs shown to be 'reknowned' for their artistry. But Bogre, but Bogre- all elves steal and tell lies! Well- so do these, but they managed to do other things that make them 'in higher' regard than your flat-ass grebber. Boom, explained.

It's got a lot of fluidity because it has to, it's Tuluk. Social ranks and hierarchies are much more mutable and flexible than those in Allanak. Shoulders rub cross-caste in Tuluk. A lot of the fluidity comes from influence - whereas in Allanak higher caste means you basically get what you want, and you only have to worry about retribution from someone higher up the food chain or some poor violent one below.

I think that probably any human citizen who is not a slave or known criminal would pretty much always be above elves. Human commoner beats elf artisan. One is an artist, yes, but Tuluk isn't simply 'art trumps all'.

A high-ranking elf in a respectable clan who is also a citizen would probably be valued above a foreigner human. Probably. Unless the human was accepted for some useful purpose (trade, perhaps). Tulukis aren't so subtle they forget that elves are sneaky, thieving scum with little to no value to honest folk. They just don't tell elves that every time they see them.

Then you're thinking incorrectly. A high-ranking elf in a respectable clan would be treated with respect for their exploits in artisanship/information gathering/bardic skills/whatever; and treated with respect, albeit of a different, perhaps more wary sort, to their known tendencies. And never forget that thieving and subterfuge is a virtue in Tuluki society, an art-form. Why would you think elves playing by the 'rules' in Tuluk, set out by the society and the Templarate, wouldn't be held in esteem? (Along with healthy dose of skepticism, sure.)

An Allanaki approaching an elf will see a cheat, a liar, a thief, and a swindler- and guard against it. A Tuluki approaching an elf might see a game of wits, a liar to out-obfuscate, a master of his craft, or a teller of creatively misleading tales, and welcome the opportunity.

[musashi]

Though it is a bit of a derail (or a narrowing of the rails) I believe the proper context in which to view the Akai is much the same as the Jaxa down south at least in so far as to say: their power should be accrued behind the scenes.

I'm not big of the idea of honoring elves in big arena events or having humans in the city proud to call them friends and be seen with them in public. I like that the Akai are there to give Tuluki city elves a tribe to be in, but the way I see it: look at where they live. That's their element. They don't have digs in Freil's Rest or the Poet's Circle for a reason.

I understand some folks feel like the Akai have been unusually elevated in game. If that's been the case, then I blame this again, on the PC microcosm.

As for Rusarla ... I dunno man. Yes they accept non humans, but how high do they rise? I imagine its much like Kurac. Sure you can join, but make no mistake about the glass ceiling.

[Fredd]

[quote author=musashi link=topic=45483.msg751288#msg751288 date=1368157712

As for Rusarla ... I dunno man. Yes they accept non humans, but how high do they rise? I imagine its much like Kurac. Sure you can join, but make no mistake about the glass ceiling.
[/quote]


I've seen a breed master bard for Rusarla. That's how high they rise.

[BleakOne]

That's unfortunate.

[Taven]

Though it is a bit of a derail (or a narrowing of the rails) I believe the proper context in which to view the Akai is much the same as the Jaxa down south at least in so far as to say: their power should be accrued behind the scenes.

The Akai are all about stone working and art. Art is a big thing. If a Faithful or Chosen hires you to make a piece of art to be permanently on display, forever, in the city? That's a lot of power. That isn't behind the scenes at all.

The major Akai elf of his age also did some things that were very much not behind the scenes. They were hilarious, but I'm surprised he lived. Luirsfest exotic dance contest, anyone?

I'm not big of the idea of honoring elves in big arena events or having humans in the city proud to call them friends and be seen with them in public. I like that the Akai are there to give Tuluki city elves a tribe to be in, but the way I see it: look at where they live. That's their element. They don't have digs in Freil's Rest or the Poet's Circle for a reason.

I understand some folks feel like the Akai have been unusually elevated in game. If that's been the case, then I blame this again, on the PC microcosm.

PCs are not always representative of the world as a whole, yes. But on the other hand, if there's no reflection of "actual" behavior through staff animations, then it's hard to react any differently then the most powerful PCs act.

As for Rusarla ... I dunno man. Yes they accept non humans, but how high do they rise? I imagine its much like Kurac. Sure you can join, but make no mistake about the glass ceiling.

In theory it is possible for a Rusarla elf to become a Bard or Masterbard (especially NPCs) although it would be very difficult. For a PC to actually any significant rank as a Rusarla would be extremely difficult, I would imagine. In theory, it is not impossible.

[musashi]

Luirs had a breed that rose to be Captain of the whole outpost as well. One. In the history of the clan. I would imagine Rusarla has similar trends.

Anyway I agree that yes, if the leader PC's are praising elves in broad daylight then it can set the tone (for better or worse) in the rest of the clan or city. That's an important aspect of playing a leader, setting the right example for others to emulate because staff can't police everything all the time. It's likewise hard not to treat some minor tiff between bottom level clan employees like a major act of war when the leader PC's are getting deeply involved in it as well.  Leader types are not immune to the microcosm effect.

My take on Akai and artwork is that it's perfectly fine to respect the artwork, without respecting the artist. It was said in Japan that the shogunate government respected argriculture a great deal. They just didn't respect agriculturalists, or farmers.

[racurtne]

Luirs had a breed that rose to be Captain of the whole outpost as well. One. In the history of the clan. I would imagine Rusarla has similar trends.

Anyway I agree that yes, if the leader PC's are praising elves in broad daylight then it can set the tone (for better or worse) in the rest of the clan or city. That's an important aspect of playing a leader, setting the right example for others to emulate because staff can't police everything all the time. It's likewise hard not to treat some minor tiff between bottom level clan employees like a major act of war when the leader PC's are getting deeply involved in it as well.  Leader types are not immune to the microcosm effect.

My take on Akai and artwork is that it's perfectly fine to respect the artwork, without respecting the artist. It was said in Japan that the shogunate government respected argriculture a great deal. They just didn't respect agriculturalists, or farmers.

Woah there, sir. Farmers were higher on the social hierarchy than artisans and merchants.

Edit to say: Sorry for derail.

[musashi]

http://asianhistory.about.com/od/japan/p/ShogJapanClass.htm

Read please.

The farmers were higher in name only, Japan is a great example of how you can appreciate the product and crush the person making it at the same time. This is kinda how I view the situation with the Akai and their "reknowned" artistry.

[racurtne]

http://asianhistory.about.com/od/japan/p/ShogJapanClass.htm

Read please.

Just below the samurai on the social ladder were the farmers or peasants.

Yep, there it is. Thanks.

But, yes, I realize what you're getting at. I'm well versed in Japanese history. Just bolding this, because I was just pointing something out.

It's even more relevant to the discussion to point out my quote in light of what you said that spurred me to mention it. If you hadn't noticed. That is, in fact, why I did it.

Edited to respond to the post below just so I didn't put another post in this topic...Also, I only said they were higher on the social hierarchy than merchants and artisans. I don't know why you felt that meant I was somehow uneducated on the subject. The only thing I said was, in fact, very true. When I pointed that out, for some reason you felt I was quote mining.  I was right. Didn't argue that they were not oppressed in some way. 

[musashi]

Keep reading please.

Although technically they were considered an honored class, the farmers lived under a crushing tax burden for much of the feudal era.

During the reign of the third Tokugawa shogun, Iemitsu, farmers were not allowed to eat any of the rice they grew. They had to hand it all over to their daimyo, and then wait for him to give some back as charity.

The fact that they honored them in name but crushed them in practice is exactly why they have the saying that I referenced above. So what was your whoa there about?

[palomar]

I think that in relation to race, in Zalanthas humans are nearly always considered superior to elves in the large cities. The exceptions would likely involve high-ranking elves in the few respectable clans that hire them, and especially low ranking humans (outsiders, slaves, ect).

In most cases, an elf citizen is lesser than a human one, considering the entire power structure of the city is made up entirely of humans, for the most part.

I agree.  IMO race would be another one of the modifiers to consider when "calculating" social status for commoners, but the racial modifiers can only be negative.  Human?  Negative zero.  Dwarf?  Negative one.  Elf?  Negative... much more than one.

Now IMO an elf can overcome that "negative" modifier conferred by their inferior race, but they need to do more than a comparable human would have to do in order to move up in status (serve the Chosen or Faithful more, more proof of mastery, more public victories, etc).  Similarly, other negative modifiers like public embarrassments would be harder for an elf to overcome compared to a human making the same faux pas, IMO.

This is true.

However, Tuluk is also a culture which seems to have more respect for elves then any other location in the world (except within an elven tribe). In Allanak, the Jaxa Pah can get a lot of influence, but generally (not always) it tends to be more behind the scenes.

In Tuluk, the Akai Sjirr have been some of the most influential and even publicly respected people in the city. Tuluk also has elven bards (which may or may not also be Akai Sjirr) which have their own Circle. That means there are Bards and Masterbards of Rusarla, and they would have more rank and influence then a lot of PCs.

Are there subtleties there? Sure. Is that going to stop the fact that PC elves have the potential to and in the past have gotten to levels of influence past most (if not all) of the PC human commoner population? Not at all.

IMO, it's about respecting and appreciating art and usefulness. It's not because they are elves. When it comes to art, all races have the same cultural opportunities to rise in rank whether it is as a thief, assassin, bard or artisan. It's important to keep in mind that just because you've codedly mastered a skill doesn't mean you're a master in the eyes of society.

I think you're wrong about the Akai Sjir being that influential and respected, but it'd be going into IC details to discuss it so I think we'll have to leave that for another time. Same with the part about influential PCs rising above human commoner PCs.

I'd say that due to their focus on art (primarily stoneworking) the Akai elves have a better chance at being appreciated and valued, but it won't be for their sharp ears - it'd be for the artwork. That's not to say it's impossible for an individual elf or the tribe in general to gain some measure of respect.

Akai Sjir artisans would also have a hard time competing with artisans from House Kadius and House Tenneshi - two organizations known to have the best artisans in Tuluk, and they are almost exclusively human.