Tuluki social hierarchy: discuss!

[racurtne]

Keep reading please.

Although technically they were considered an honored class, the farmers lived under a crushing tax burden for much of the feudal era.

During the reign of the third Tokugawa shogun, Iemitsu, farmers were not allowed to eat any of the rice they grew. They had to hand it all over to their daimyo, and then wait for him to give some back as charity.

The fact that they honored them in name but crushed them in practice is exactly why they have the saying that I referenced above. So what was your whoa there about?

Well, I felt like it needed to be pointed out that they were in fact, supposed to be respected. They at least pay lip-service to it, which is something above completely disrespecting them.

I don't feel it's alike. These are farmers who are supposed to be respected that aren't. Those elves aren't supposed to be. They are respected (at least more than other elves) in spite of their obvious racial handicap.

[musashi]

Japanese farmers were supposed to be respected for being farmers, but they weren't because they were poor peasants.

Akai in the north are supposed to be respected because they're fine craftsman, but they aren't because they're elves.

These seem fairly comparable to me.

But even if they're not perfectly comparable, the dissonance a culture can embrace regarding appreciating their artwork while not appreciating the artists who made it is I think a perfectly acceptable way to rationalize why you can still hate on elves in the north even if they make nice statues.

[racurtne]

Japanese farmers were supposed to be respected for being farmers, but they weren't because they were poor peasants.

Elves in the north are supposed to be respected because they're fine craftsman, but they aren't because they're else.

These seem fairly comparable to me.

I'm seeing your angle more clearly now. I thought you were comparing these in a slightly different fashion.

As I said. These elves are respected (to some small degree more than the common rabble) in spite of being elves because they are craftsmen.

In turn, these farmers are respected (in a small, lip-service sort of way) in spite of being dirt poor and defenseless, just because they are involved in such an important industry.

Gotcha. *thumbs up*

EDIT:

But even if they're not perfectly comparable, the dissonance a culture can embrace regarding appreciating their artwork while not appreciating the artists who made it is I think a perfectly acceptable way to rationalize why you can still hate on elves in the north even if they make nice statues.

Agreed. I'm seeing it now. (see above) I was having problems with farmers because they are supposed to be high on the ladder, whereas elves are not. It's just that the elves aren't respected just because they are elves. The farmers aren't respected because they just plain don't have to be.

[BleakOne]

As for influence for elves, they certainly can gain a large amount of that. They can gain it in the behind-the-scenes way. 'Rinth elf crimelords can make a much more respectable human humbled with bribes, threats and subterfuge done correctly. Nothing stops elves from equalling or surpassing humans in levels of wealth, connections, and such in either city state. It's just a good deal harder for them.

I just don't see a primarily elven organization ever being truly respected by the largely racist human-run society. As others have said, they make fine works that highborn may show off inside their estates or in public, but that doesn't change the fact that they are elves. Nobody wants to be friends, or known to be friends with them. It's culturally 'eww', like being friendly to breeds.

Like with the gemmed in Allanak. They may likely by more useful to the Powers That Be than commoner Amos, and may get work, pay and some level of influence from their usefulness, but they will never, ever be equal to an untainted human. At best they can hope to be considered, for lack of a better term, A Credit To Their Species.

[musashi]

Agreed. I'm seeing it now. (see above) I was having problems with farmers because they are supposed to be high on the ladder, whereas elves are not. It's just that the elves aren't respected just because they are elves. The farmers aren't respected because they just plain don't have to be.

Well try looking at it this way; in Tuluk artisans are supposed to be high on the ladder. The Akai, while being artisans, are not, because they also happen to be elves. And you just plain don't have to respect elves.

I also pretty much agree with what BleakOne one wrote. A noble might comission a work from the Akai and show it off, but they should be framing it in conversation more like "Oh yeah you know the elves ... they came begging to carve my likeness in stone and look they didn't do a half bad job it's actually quite lovely." -- even if the reality is that the noble got taken blind for that comission, and had to do them some favors discreetly on top.

[racurtne]

Agreed. I'm seeing it now. (see above) I was having problems with farmers because they are supposed to be high on the ladder, whereas elves are not. It's just that the elves aren't respected just because they are elves. The farmers aren't respected because they just plain don't have to be.

Well try looking at it this way; in Tuluk artisans are supposed to be high on the ladder. The Akai, while being artisans, are not, because they also happen to be elves. And you just plain don't have to respect elves.

I also pretty much agree with what BleakOne one wrote. A noble might comission a work from the Akai and show it off, but they should be framing it in conversation more like "Oh yeah you know the elves ... they came begging to carve my likeness in stone and look they didn't do a half bad job it's actually quite lovely." -- even if the reality is that the noble got taken blind for that comission, and had to do them some favors discreetly on top.

I'm just going to bold that and hope you see that you are repeating precisely what I said there and here...

These elves are respected (to some small degree more than the common rabble) in spite of being elves because they are craftsmen (and craftsmen are respected).

The exception being that which I crossed out, because that's just not true. It's not that you should and don't because you don't have to. It's that they are non-human and therefore undeserving of it.

Point being, I got it. I'm clear on my stance here.

[musashi]

It sounds like toying with semantics to me.

You should respect this group of poor defenseless peasants in feudal Japan because they are farmers, and farmers deserve respect in feudal Japanese culture. But you don't, because they're poor defenseless peasants, and thus undeserving of it.
You should respect this group of elves in Tuluk because they're artisans, and artisans deserve respect in Tuluki culture. But you don't, because they're elves, and thus undeserving of it.

I get that you're saying you think they should be deserving of some small measure of respect because they're artisans despite them also being elves. But that's precisely what I'm contesting.

Despite being farmers, poor defenseless peasants in feudal Japan got zero respect. You said they got lip service respect ... but lip service is ... insincere support or respect expressed but not put into practice... literally by definition.

And likewise, I think it's totally appropriate for elves in Tuluk to get the same kind of treatment, despite also being skilled artisans that the city makes use of. I'm all for them maintaining a power base behind the scenes as elves are typically want to do in the game, but I disagree with the notion that their being good artisans obviously has to make them more respected than common human rabble. Want to pay them lip service, but treat them like shit in practice? Awesome! Game on.

Being farmers didn't help poor peasants overcome that hurdle in Japan.
Being artisans doesn't have to help elves overcome that hurdle in Tuluk.

[racurtne]

It sounds like toying with semantics to me.

You should respect this group of poor defenseless peasants in feudal Japan because they are farmers, and farmers deserve respect in feudal Japanese culture. But you don't, because they're poor defenseless peasants, and thus undeserving of it.
You should respect this group of elves in Tuluk because they're artisans, and artisans deserve respect in Tuluki culture. But you don't, because they're elves, and thus undeserving of it.

I get that you're saying you think they should be deserving of some small measure of respect because they're artisans despite them also being elves. But that's precisely what I'm contesting.

Despite being farmers, poor defenseless peasants in feudal Japan got zero respect. You said they got lip service respect ... but lip service is ... insincere support or respect expressed but not put into practice... literally by definition.

And likewise, I think it's totally appropriate for elves in Tuluk to get the same kind of treatment, despite also being skilled artisans that the city makes use of. I'm all for them maintaining a power base behind the scenes as elves are typically want to do in the game, but I disagree with the notion that there being good artisans obviously has to make them more respected than common human rabble.

Being farmers didn't help poor peasants overcome that hurdle in Japan.
Being artisans doesn't have to help elves overcome that hurdle in Tuluk.

Can you please be less obtuse? I agreed with you.  

Edit: Oh, I meant common elf rabble. Anyway, as I said, I agreed. I'm out.

[musashi]

Ahah. Yes if you meant common elf rabble, we are not disagreeing.

Well then. Good.

[Barzalene]

I think that probably any human citizen who is not a slave or known criminal would pretty much always be above elves. Human commoner beats elf artisan. One is an artist, yes, but Tuluk isn't simply 'art trumps all'.

A high-ranking elf in a respectable clan who is also a citizen would probably be valued above a foreigner human. Probably. Unless the human was accepted for some useful purpose (trade, perhaps). Tulukis aren't so subtle they forget that elves are sneaky, thieving scum with little to no value to honest folk. They just don't tell elves that every time they see them.

My thought is that rank is not a static phenomenon. In some things that elf will be given the preference conferred by his accomplishment and in other things he will not.

If you were to have an art event that elf might get a better place or time frame. You might pay that elf more for his work than you'd pay that unaccomplished human. Their opinion on some matters might bear more weight than some random hunter or new salarri trader. But when you throw a small dinner party? When you look to hire someone you work closely with? When conferring some actual sort of power and you're opening yourself up and leaving yourself vulnerable? Then it's different isn't it?

I'm late to the party here. It's all been said. Sorry

[Cutthroat]

Being an elf or having some other undesirable trait would be like having a handicap. If a character's total social influence were a simple numeric value (I think it's way more complicated, but for the sake of argument), being an elf would give negative points. An elf may rise high in Rusarla Circle or the Akai Sjir but they will never be able to clean the stain of being an elf off of them. The same goes for any non-human race in any of the clans in Tuluk. Being an independent and/or a foreigner leaves them with even worse prospects. You can find something about them (e.g. their art) to respect as said above, and you can respect the actual person as much as you would a far less influential human. I think that's probably the most practical way to reconcile the chaotic Tuluki social ladder with biases that are Known World-wide (the hatred of lesser races).

It takes good players of non-humans to enforce that on themselves, and good players of humans to enforce that on the non-human PCs. Chosen and Faithful leaders have a particular duty to set an example, but everyone needs to follow through. The tricky part is that it's Tuluk, so what might look like happiness and friendship could actually be a veneer to cover something behind the scenes. It's better for players to assume that players are doing this right and to play it out correctly themselves (or even better, actually go behind the scenes themselves and seriously play in that dark side of Tuluk), than to suspect that players are bungling this. (Not that that has happened in this thread, I'm just saying it as a tip - because it can be really difficult to follow another PC's example in Tuluk, because of that veneer I mentioned earlier.)

[greasygemo]

Being an elf or having some other undesirable trait would be like having a handicap. If a character's total social influence were a simple numeric value (I think it's way more complicated, but for the sake of argument), being an elf would give negative points.

^ That makes me wish I was really good at math because I would totally try to build a Tuluki-respectometer. 

[AmandaGreathouse]

I feel like the Akai are accorded and undue amount of trust and respect by those in power.

That's really all I have to say on topic, except that I think it's a shame that I've seen numerous occasions where someone has chosen an elf over a human in situations where there were 2 individuals that were otherwise equal.

I know all the circumstances around it. I still think it's crap.

It has, thankfully, tapered off, with the death of a certain someone.

I would still like to see them looked down on more publicly.

Last thing the tree huggers need is the accolade necker lover as well.

Edit: I don't even.

[musashi]

Let's try and steer clear of calling out specific characters, no matter how vague.

[Harmless]

Musashi: I promise I am not referring to any specific individuals here:

Hey, if I was rich guy hiring help in Tuluk, I might consider the elf because they're a worthless necker, who will naturally respect my roundeared authoritah, whereas that roundeared option might try and one-up me and beat me out in the end.

No matter how much money I give that necker to help me, he'll never rise up in society, because he's a damn necker! Easy to handle, know what you're paying for. There's just the small matter of keeping his dirty necker hands off my personal belongings, which is why I hire Amos here to keep an eye on things.... now we're all good.

I don't think elves in Tuluk are a problem. Some people are very "nice" to them, but we all know what Tuluki "niceness" means...

As for the noobs, they'll eventually learn why elves stay low on the social ladder, *violently.* Their first Tuluki commoner or two might be really nice to elves, but before long they'll get it. It's all part of the Tuluki learning curve.

[Nyr]

I've converted the page to a helpfile.  I am working on a way to display the chart now.

[Nyr]

http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Tuluki%20Social%20Hierarchy

[palomar]

http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Tuluki%20Social%20Hierarchy

Awesome.

Two things: It says under Societal Castes that the High Precentor is a Lirathan, and then further down the page under Additional Notes that the HP is a Jihaen. It also says Atum Negean is the HP, but it should be Ardith Lyksae, as far as I know.

[Nyr]

Thanks--fixed!

[Teal]

Artisan

The artisan caste consists of the elite of the other two common castes. Included in the artisan caste are master crafters, ranked Circle bards of Bard rank or above with noble or templar partisanship, extremely accomplished assassins and thieves with noble or templar partisanship and accomplished artisans of other disciplines that can show sufficient support.

I think this section needs to be updated.

[Nyr]

Why?  Because extremely accomplished assassins and thieves would (by definition) not necessarily be known?

[Teal]

Why?  Because extremely accomplished assassins and thieves would (by definition) not necessarily be known?

No, I'm fine with that! Accomplished Assassins are known to who it's important to have know them. I was thinking that the Circle Bard portion in relationship to patrons is outdated.

Also, I haven't said it yet, but thanks for the quick work adding this! I'm not trying to instantly go "rawr, nitpick!". I think it's great that there can be a thread and staff read and respond to update the documentation, especially when it's this fast. 

[Nyr]

No, I'm fine with that! Accomplished Assassins are known to who it's important to have know them. I was thinking that the Circle Bard portion in relationship to patrons is outdated.

Oh, right.  Good catch, I wasn't seeing what you were saying!  Fixed!

[Teal]

No, I'm fine with that! Accomplished Assassins are known to who it's important to have know them. I was thinking that the Circle Bard portion in relationship to patrons is outdated.

Oh, right.  Good catch, I wasn't seeing what you were saying!  Fixed!

Sweet!

[Nyr]

I've made a few more formatting changes to make the doc easier to read.