Since we feel like talking about Tuluk again.

[Riev]

So far as my experience with Tuluki Templars, the -main- reason I stored my Jihaen was because when I was accepted in, there were three staffers watching over us. After a couple of weeks playing, all those staff stopped working, or moved to Legend, and Nyr had to oversee the clan.

I'm not saying I stored because of Nyr, but that he had his own groups to watch, and it felt to me like if I needed something I didn't have the staff support I normally would. By the time I stored, there were three brand new staff that had no idea who I was, never picked me for the role I was in, and I was just over it.

My experience is -incredibly- rare, and there were other factors involved. I can't speak for other players as to why their Templars or Nobles didn't last.

In a role like Templar...Why exactly did you need constant Staff support, though? IIRC, there is plenty of coded power available to Templars, if they are able to self-start and create their own plots and bring people/organizations into them. The same with T'zai Byn Sergeants. They don't really need a lot of Staff hand-holding, they just go and do. Sponsored roles, especially Templar roles, are not for everyone. They are actually for a very few, that truly get how to do it properly. That's why Nobles/Templars that STICK to the role truly stay around for a long ass time. They get it.

Not trying to bash your Templar Skillz, but it sounds like you weren't really into the PC, and that doesn't seem to have much to do with how many/what Staff are around. If 3 new Staff popped into my clan, i'd be filled with joy! I wouldn't store immediately because they 'don't get me'. So...I guess i'm saying Tuluki Templar may just not be the role for you.

I would explain it, but I already stated earlier that I'm sick of the "you don't get it" and "other people do". I said mine was an isolated case, someone was asking why some Templars store.

I'm really getting annoyed at the "don't get it" remarks. "You don't get it" is not constructive, its destructive to the argument.

[Lizzie]

Riev, for what it's worth - I -totally- get what you're saying. From the "minion's" perspective - when you send up things to your boss, and your boss doesn't have the coded authority or coded resources to handle a situation - and he passes it up to his clan leader staff member - and that staff member either a) doesn't respond for 2 RL weeks, b) responds with a "Oh, I'm new here, sorry, I have no idea what you're talking about or c) The staffer completely misunderstands the issue, has not monitored any of it, or worse - only monitored a short vignette that depicted something that had nothing to do with the point..and responds in kind.. or d) the clan leader staffer has totally different play times as the players of the PCs involved, who WOULD animate an NPC but can't ever meet up with the PCs involved

then it makes it difficult for the clan leader, and the other PCs involved, to procede with plots and "be the change" (which has become even more cliche than "find out IC").

Like licensing an assassination, when the only lirathan you know, is only available either over the Way or in person for 1 hour per week - and that's the hour you're logging off for the night.

[Kismetic]

I'm getting -real- annoyed at the few people who 'get' Tuluk, telling the rest of us to "get over it". I don't want to get over my issues with Tuluk. I want to understand it, or explain what is difficult for me to understand, so that we can have a real discussion.

Riev, if you want to understand, you can ask questions.

[Lizzie]

I'm getting -real- annoyed at the few people who 'get' Tuluk, telling the rest of us to "get over it". I don't want to get over my issues with Tuluk. I want to understand it, or explain what is difficult for me to understand, so that we can have a real discussion.

Riev, if you want to understand, you can ask questions.

He has asked. And he has been continually told "get over it" or "find out IC" or "be the change." That is WHY he's frustrated. Because asking questions is sometimes like sitting at the bottom of the ocean and reaching up in an attempt to poke your finger at the moon.

[Iiyola]

I doubt anyone will change anyone's mind. Even after 8 pages the pro's and the contra's are just as persistent and stubborn.

[Kismetic]

I'm getting -real- annoyed at the few people who 'get' Tuluk, telling the rest of us to "get over it". I don't want to get over my issues with Tuluk. I want to understand it, or explain what is difficult for me to understand, so that we can have a real discussion.

Riev, if you want to understand, you can ask questions.

He has asked. And he has been continually told "get over it" or "find out IC" or "be the change." That is WHY he's frustrated. Because asking questions is sometimes like sitting at the bottom of the ocean and reaching up in an attempt to poke your finger at the moon.

I apologize, it's been a weird weekend, but what questions did I miss?

[TheBadSeed]

I like the xenophobia. Not that I'm the arbiter of all that is good.

I've really tried to stay out of this thread, because I think much of it is based on .. well.. Crap.

Tuluk doesn't suffer from Xenophobia, in fact it's pretty much the opposite. Xenophobia is the fear and hatred of all outsiders. Tuluk as a whole does not suffer from that. There is a whole trading market dedicated to outsiders. Seik, Arabet, Sun Runners, Muark, Jal Tavan are represented, and each have factions inside Tuluk that they are friendly with, and factions that they are not friendly with. Tuluk was founded by tribes who pledged loyalty to the Sun King. The other tribes north of the Shield Wall were never excluded, just not included.

Tuluk gives special privileges to those who are citizens. Opportunities for employment, opportunities for gatherings, etc. So they favor their own, as should be expected. This is not xenophobia, it's benefitting those who have the common background of citizenship. This is common in every society from ancient times to the present.

Tuluk has specified hatreds, which is not the same as Xenophobia. Fear and hatred of magic wielders.. well, yeah, that's pretty well set in stone there. Hatred of Naki's, yeah, but not so much fear, more like a well known animosity which would cause someone to react more harshly to slights than they would otherwise forgive from a fellow Tuluki. There is room for individual hatred for all southerners, but it settles to animosity most of the time. The exact same is true in Allanak about Northerners.

All in all, I'll never understand this hate cycle. I don't find Tuluk hard to "Get".. People there are more guarded with their true intentions than in Allanak. Ok. So what? I've known many sneaky types in Tuluk, both liscensed and not, never seen anyone unable to play through the obstacles just because of a lack of the Rinth to run off to.

The real problem, at least in my opinion, and what seems to drive this conversation so much is the disparity between skills development opportunities. One is a -much- better place to skill up as an outdoorsy type, and the other a somewhat better place to skill as an indoorsy type. It's not about the people or feeling inside the cities.

[Vwest]

I'm really getting annoyed at the "don't get it" remarks. "You don't get it" is not constructive, its destructive to the argument.

You more then likely do get it, you're just being roped into thinking there is more to it then there is.

There is no arcane secret to decoding Tuluk, it isn't some infinitely deep pool of intrigue or the pinnacle of subtly and finesse. No matter what people tell you, it just isn't that complicated.

Read up on the political and social structure, maybe some light reading on what life in a police state is like for some inspiration and get in there and join the utter nonsense that is the current state of Tuluk. In my opinion, the current vision of Tuluk requires a lot more active players to fill out a much broader range of Tuluki society in order to function properly, so right now there are a lot of holes that lead to situations that are just... awkward and silly, really.

Those situations turn either ridiculous or hilarious, both usually resulting in either death or mudsex.

You can take my word for it, the results of both are uninspired and disappointing.

[greasygemo]

The real problem, at least in my opinion, and what seems to drive this conversation so much is the disparity between skills development opportunities. One is a -much- better place to skill up as an outdoorsy type, and the other a somewhat better place to skill as an indoorsy type. It's not about the people or feeling inside the cities.

Nail on head. I totally agree from what I've seen.

Allanak
Skill development and longevity stems from living indoors, learning to deal with people. It's really dangerous and barren outside. A whole host of materials are hard to get. You -have- to have good connections, you have to RP with others to make them, you want wood? You gotta get to know a bynner or a gypsy or someone who cal make it over the desert alive for you or take you. You want spice? You gotta get dirty in the black market. You want to fight or train, you're better off joining up with the Byn or an organization that will outfit you and train you otherwise you'll end up fighting a wayward spider before dusk with your novice scan and your newb weapon skills and some other guy will pick off your gear and sell it by dawn.

Tuluk
Skill development and longevity stems from taking advantage of a prosperous outdoor locale. Lush, vibrant, wilderness area provides a wide breadth of flora and fauna as well as sparring material, including many types of low threat creatures, and many of the dangerous ones are easy enough to spot so long as you're not AFK in the wilds. Inexpensive, plentiful food and water, perfectly safe foraging locales, significantly lower risk of magicker intervention, easy route to a trading post who will buy your fancy rocks and precious wooden blocks for mad sids all add up to less need to interact, less need to foster a lot of development or seek the protection of Clans to survive.

[Reiloth]

I'm really getting annoyed at the "don't get it" remarks. "You don't get it" is not constructive, its destructive to the argument.

You more then likely do get it, you're just being roped into thinking there is more to it then there is.

There is no arcane secret to decoding Tuluk, it isn't some infinitely deep pool of intrigue or the pinnacle of subtly and finesse. No matter what people tell you, it just isn't that complicated.

Read up on the political and social structure, maybe some light reading on what life in a police state is like for some inspiration and get in there and join the utter nonsense that is the current state of Tuluk. In my opinion, the current vision of Tuluk requires a lot more active players to fill out a much broader range of Tuluki society in order to function properly, so right now there are a lot of holes that lead to situations that are just... awkward and silly, really.

Those situations turn either ridiculous or hilarious, both usually resulting in either death or mudsex.

You can take my word for it, the results of both are uninspired and disappointing.

Haha...I'm sorry. How long have you been here?

Hate to be that guy, but you've likely not even seen the potential Tuluk has to offer. Give it time. Trust.

[Vwest]

Haha...I'm sorry. How long have you been here?

A little over two years.

[Reiloth]

As someone who's been here for over ten, I can tell you Tuluk has quite a bit of depth. It's not accessible to anyone and everyone. It has eye opening moments of awesome. They are sometimes few and far between. It really depends on who is playing there. Cheap drama, mudsex, 'he said she said' and campaigns of incestuous love affairs really don't amount to much beyond boring yawns and 'here we go agains' in both Tuluk and Allanak.

Some Houses in Allanak have one paragraph of documentation, and i'm not even sure if there is 'secret documentation' for them. They're pretty boring. There's literally a poop house. C'mon.

Tuluk maybe has -too- much documentation. The kind of documentation that, in reality, would be awesome. Every government would love to have all the T's crossed and I's dotted. But some vagueness has proven pretty valuable, like with some tribes and GMH's i've played in. Sometimes when you're too specific, it's too stifling. Rules are fun to both bend and break, but living in a society that tends to kill (See: Disappear) rulebreakers makes it more fun to 'bend' the rules oftentimes.

I honestly find myself playing in Tuluk and not seeing it as 'broken' by any stretch of the imagination. Sure, it could be improved. So could Allanak, Luirs, Cenyr, the Canyons of Waste, the Grey Forest. Looks like they seem to improve over time, just takes a while.

So, if you've only been here for two years, or five, or seven, or eleven -- I'd say stick it out before jumping to any radical conclusions about locations you can play in. You'd be surprised what happens when you overturn the wrong rock, at the wrong time.

[hyzhenhok]

I wish the only viable location for the purple and blue tattoo was the face. I hate how everyone puts it on the neck and hides it.

[HavokBlue]

I wish the only viable location for the purple and blue tattoo was the face. I hate how everyone puts it on the neck and hides it.

It would be even stupider to hide it with a nose ring.

[palomar]

Riev, for what it's worth - I -totally- get what you're saying. From the "minion's" perspective - when you send up things to your boss, and your boss doesn't have the coded authority or coded resources to handle a situation - and he passes it up to his clan leader staff member - and that staff member either a) doesn't respond for 2 RL weeks, b) responds with a "Oh, I'm new here, sorry, I have no idea what you're talking about or c) The staffer completely misunderstands the issue, has not monitored any of it, or worse - only monitored a short vignette that depicted something that had nothing to do with the point..and responds in kind.. or d) the clan leader staffer has totally different play times as the players of the PCs involved, who WOULD animate an NPC but can't ever meet up with the PCs involved

then it makes it difficult for the clan leader, and the other PCs involved, to procede with plots and "be the change" (which has become even more cliche than "find out IC").

Like licensing an assassination, when the only lirathan you know, is only available either over the Way or in person for 1 hour per week - and that's the hour you're logging off for the night.

If you need to get a hold of a templar/noble (and in some cases the GMHs) and they are never around when you are, it is perfectly fine to contact staff for assistance if the PC's minions can't make it happen for you. They will either accommodate your request themselves through a response from v/NPCs or help you set up a time with the relevant PCs.

Your example of not being able to arrange a license has nothing to do with clan leader staff support or the lack of it. It is an issue of playtimes not matching, and can be handled as described above.

[Cutthroat]

I wish the only viable location for the purple and blue tattoo was the face. I hate how everyone puts it on the neck and hides it.

Tulukis hiding their inks when they travel is like Americans going to Europe and saying they are Canadian. Except it's not so much for avoiding embarrassment as it is for avoiding death. 

I'm really getting annoyed at the "don't get it" remarks. "You don't get it" is not constructive, its destructive to the argument.

There is no arcane secret to decoding Tuluk, it isn't some infinitely deep pool of intrigue or the pinnacle of subtly and finesse. No matter what people tell you, it just isn't that complicated.

Read up on the political and social structure, maybe some light reading on what life in a police state is like for some inspiration and get in there and join the utter nonsense that is the current state of Tuluk. In my opinion, the current vision of Tuluk requires a lot more active players to fill out a much broader range of Tuluki society in order to function properly, so right now there are a lot of holes that lead to situations that are just... awkward and silly, really.

Those situations turn either ridiculous or hilarious, both usually resulting in either death or mudsex.

I agree for the most part, except for that last sentence. There is a lot of depth in Tuluki plotting. I would say that while lack of players can be a problem, another problem seems to be a barrier to entry into certain levels of plots. If you're playing an independent citizen without a patron, and insist on staying that way for the PC's entire life, you are unlikely to be included in political plots in the upper-crust. And even if you are playing a PC that is well-connected with the upper-crust, it will take time before your PC is trusted with the knowledge of certain things. When you're not included in these plots, you might observe their effects without realizing what was behind it all. That doesn't mean those things are not happening - they're just happening out of your view.

My personal advice to enjoying Tuluk to its maximum (commoner version):
1) Don't forget to grab the star and band tattoos.
2) Play in a clan, or a group of independents. If there isn't any of the latter, make one.
3) Read the docs, and read them again. They're on the old site for now (old.armageddon.org) but they'll move eventually.
4) Be patient. It will take a while to get promotions, opportunities, and entry into plots.
5) Be careful. If your characters die in days or weeks, your PCs will never reach that point of trust. And yes, the outside of Tuluk is dangerous. In the coded sense there may be less threats outside than there are in Allanak, but that line in the docs about how your PC would have to be crazy or skilled to leave the protective walls of their city-state alone? Just as true in Tuluk as it is in Allanak.

My personal advice to enjoying Tuluk to its maximum (sponsored role version):
1) Read the docs, and read them again. They're on the old site for now (old.armageddon.org) but they'll move eventually.
2) Be patient. When you are starting out, a lot of the PCs around you are already at least somewhat established. New characters trickle into Tuluk a bit more slowly than Allanak.
3) Be as politically careful as your character would be.
4) Pick allies and enemies, think of things to do, and think of who and what you will need to set those things into motion. Then begin collecting and establishing trust.

Those tips are more or less applicable to Allanak IMO, which is why I ultimately think that there isn't much of a difference between playing in the two, except perhaps the higher barrier to entry in political plots in Tuluk, whereas Allanak's highest-level plots are politically or magickally related.

[Barzalene]

The Bad Seed is correct.

[Riya OniSenshi]

Rules are fun to both bend and break, but living in a society that tends to kill (See: Disappear) rulebreakers makes it more fun to 'bend' the rules oftentimes.

This is your opinion and is not invariably true in all cases.

[hyzhenhok]

I wish the only viable location for the purple and blue tattoo was the face. I hate how everyone puts it on the neck and hides it.

Tulukis hiding their inks when they travel is like Americans going to Europe and saying they are Canadian. Except it's not so much for avoiding embarrassment as it is for avoiding death. 

I get that. I'm more annoyed when true-inked citizens strut around Tuluk itself hiding their citizenship inks. Most Tulukis don't even have to worry about their tattoos giving them away because they keep them covered all the time anyway.

[X-D]

The problem is not really that they "hide" Them, it is more the location the docs say they should be...something that has always, in fact annoyed me.

Every spot, but one is someplace that, if you are even close to combat PC, needs armor...Oh, you can get it on your head or neck...gee, those are the two most important spots to protect...face, Eh, it is still going to be covered by a multitude of items.

Now, if the docs said "Shoulders are often used by combat types." Every single one of my Tuluk PCs would sport the ink on shoulders...showing them off proudly, but still coverable should the need arise.

In fact, if I had my way, I would change the docs to say "these tats can be anywhere, but most often Tulukis wear them where they show proudly." Or something to that effect.

[Riya OniSenshi]

How is someone supposed to see them through your armor sleeves, torso garment that has sleeves, and/or the aba/robe/cloak-like-thing with long sleeves?

I've seen a few PCs put the tattoos in their mdesc and have the coded tattoos... but still, if they're somewhere that's covered other people looking at you still shouldn't see them.

[Harmless]

Putting a facial tattoo in the mdesc sounds like a prudent option to show it at all times, regardless of nose rings, sunslits, etc. You may want to think twice about wearing facewraps with that. It's a coded issue indeed.

[X-D]

Sleeves do not cover shoulder slot Riya. I tend to think the shoulder slot is sorta between neck and sleeves anyway. Still, the point being, More options for the caste/citizen tats mean a greater likelyhood that somebody will leave one of them uncovered.

[Riya OniSenshi]

Codedly they don't.
According to item descriptions, some things do, and some don't. You have to look to make sure.

Yeah, most sleeve armor is fastened to the body armor over the shoulder, but there are many things that do cover the complete arm. I can think of at least one arm armor that covers only the shoulders and several body armors that cover the entire arm.

The main thing that's going to cover the shoulder is one's about_body slot item.
If you're going to make sure beforehand that all your gear won't cover it, then you've not got a problem.

However this is all going to come down to do you trust other PCs to look and recognize what they can and can't see based on mdesc and item description. Ideally this wouldn't be a problem, but we've yet to reach an ideal.

[Reiloth]

I don't think it's the -amount- of players in Tuluk that can make it great. I think it's the -quality- of players in Tuluk that can make it great.

If Tuluk is full of people who don't get it, it sucks.

If Tuluk is full of people who get it, it's great.

Pretty simple really. And some of the 'Great Tuluki Players' no longer play the game. Some do, and are playing in Tuluk right now. I don't think there's much wrong with it. It'd be nice to have a playerbase that's big enough to support having 3-5 Noble Houses open and thriving, more people in the ruling caste, and more in-betweeners. But it isn't (yet). Seems like we're getting a bunch of new players though so, who knows?