Since we feel like talking about Tuluk again.

[greasygemo]

Trol-luk supposition

A hypothosis that the basis for Tuluki culture is to be both capable of dealing scathing and rage inducing commentary, intending to defame and victimize your foe whilst elevating your own social status, but at the same time keeping a perfectly straight face and appearing unbiased or possibly helpful, even though you are totally trolling the hell out of that guy.

[Morrolan]

Trol-luk supposition

A hypothosis that the basis for Tuluki culture is to be both capable of dealing scathing and rage inducing commentary, intending to defame and victimize your foe whilst elevating your own social status, but at the same time keeping a perfectly straight face and appearing unbiased or possibly helpful, even though you are totally trolling the hell out of that guy.

While that is an excellent supposition, there are those who feel that such an approach would be of benefit to southerners, halfbreeds, and (especially) southron halfbreeds. Because of your high great stature, they asked me (as a truly neutral party, and one who would show you all the respect you truly deserve) to ask you to further consider your position. It is with great embarrassment that I even bring this before your worthy attention, and I only do so because assuredly you will not be swayed from your unassailable position.

[Scarecrow]

This is the part of the movie where Allanak and Tuluk slap eachother, then suddenly start to make out.

[Lizzie]

It's really too bad that as soon as the thread becomes both serious AND civil at the same time, it derails into a lol-fest of silliness.

Message sent to new players and veterans who ask with all sincerety: don't bother asking serious questions about "HOW" to deal with Tuluk. You will just get laughed at. Y'know, because you just don't get it.

Message received.

[musashi]

Someone should make a "kickass Tuluki commoner" guide like was done for nobles.

Things I'd like to know: How to start plots, How to get involved in plots, Common mistakes to avoid, How to poke people with subtlty, How to make and keep allies... And other things I know I'll think of later.

What kind of kick ass commoner do you want to make? There are some stark as night and day differences between an awesome half-elf warren rat trying to get by as a mule for the Akai Sjir who will never fully accept him ... and a born and bred circle bard ambitious to pick up the title of master, or win the Grey Hunt and become a Hlum noble ... even though both are commoners, and both could be kick ass, their experience and play will vary tremendously.

Still waiting on an answer.

[Barzalene]

Sorry if I've missed any suggestions among the complaints, but: how can we make Tuluk better?

Here are my suggestions:
Stop reading the above debate, which seems to be filled with a mix of fact and opinion given as fact to the extent that it's impossible to untangle on from the other.
Read the docs.
Design your pc with the docs in mind.
Try to follow the docs.
When you fail to follow the docs chalk it up to the human condition winning out over Tuluki conditioning.
If there is fallout from your failure suck it up
When dealing with other people's pcs judge people more and more strongly based on the docs by their proximity to your pc.

[greasygemo]

I'd love to see a commers guide similar to the nobles guide. Because you know what? Learning to interact appropriately between social classes in Tuluk is hard. There! I said it! I'm new! *ducks head*

Docs say commoners and nobles are like, more familiar with each other than the south, but -how- familiar? How many dips of my head is taking it too far? Is it cool to buy one a drink? I know I can't touch one or sleep with one obviously, and that being -overly- respectful might be taken as either southernish or even sarcasm/fake flattery. So, there is this whole field of middle ground and I had the damnedest time (still do) figuring it out.

It's hard to explain everything because it's not one thing. It's a couple things. Tuluk and interacting in Tuluk in a way that gets you involved in higher level stuff and living for a while doing it requires you to know things you can't seem to get out of the docs as they are. I dun even know how to make it specific.

There is a lot of grey area in the interaction dynamic, so much so that it's hard for someone who doesn't have a lot of familiarity with the area ICly to learn how to behave. (not through docs, but actual play, hearing the random rules, laws, watching them get enforced, seeing the reactions of others in different situations, finding out bits of history type stuff that's not in the docs, watching how the different upper crusts interact between each other by viewing snippets of it etc)

So if I am retarded, go ahead and throw rocks at me or whatever. But I took me a long time to be able to figure out who cared about what and why and what would get me blank stares and what would get me thumbs up, and I'm still unsure sometimes.

And yes, it's clear I can't yell shitcock, and it's clear I should say "His Light" in parting. That whole area in between in a maze.

DO WANT COMMONERS GUIDE TO TULUK!

[palomar]

So I was thinking about the "get it" and "don't get it" argument we've seen throughout this, and some previous discussions. It really is a blanket statement that is difficult to have a constructive discussion about. Somehow, though, the need to use it apparently comes from somewhere.

I think it in part stems from situations where Player A (who is comfortable playing in Tuluk) experiences the PCs of Players B, C and D do things that don't adhere to documentation. It can be small-scale or large-scale things, and the greater inherent social status of Players B, C and D the more effect such actions potentially have on the current environment/playerbase - and the response from players such as A and their PCs.

For example, Kadian Bob is a Tuluki and Kadian Jill is Allanaki.

If Bob does things that do not seem to adhere to documentation (publicly speaking of magicks and sorcery), there will not be a whole lot of collective patience among Tuluk players. If Bob keeps this up (and somehow avoids being disappeared, reassigned or whatever), not visibly making an effort to stick to the norm, players will probably think of Bob's player as someone who "doesn't get it". Every PC in Tuluk should know that magick is outlawed and not spoken of in public. Going against the Tuluk-specific norms (especially if repeatedly), or not bothering to make an effort, is what I believe causes some people to think that some players "don't get it".

Jill on the other hand, would have the initial excuse of being Allanaki but that will only grant her that much leeway because if she intends on making a career in Tuluk, she better adjust. Of course, the player can decide that his/her PC doesn't understand why they shouldn't speak of magicks in public - or they foolishly try to make a statement against better understanding. Then it's all RP, with all the associated consequences etc. It can still be a lack of effort, interest or understanding from the player's part, especially if the PC's behavior turns into being detrimental to their own well-being.

What I've written above is basically about sticking to the documentation, incorporating it into your roleplay. It is not necessary to understand and consider each and every aspect of Tuluk society at all times to fit in, enjoy or thrive in Tuluk. The important part is being open-minded and realize that it is not Allanak, things are done differently, and to try to take culture/tradition/law etc into consideration when you play a Tuluki regardless of caste. Tuluk won't appeal to everyone and that's fine. Desert elves don't appeal to everyone either, nor does everyone skip around in joy at the thought of a Muarki waterslide. It's fine. However, I don't think Tuluk and the documentation is too complex, even if it is hard to wrap your head around some details - as a long-time Tuluk player I willingly admit that. Theft being an art form, for example. Or the general idea of an oppressive police state handling things behind close doors. For some reason an oppressive police state handling things in your face with fireballs seems easier to adjust to.

Just because a player doesn't enjoy playing in Tuluk doesn't mean they don't get it. The things I've said here could be applied to Allanak as well, but I think we tend to look at Allanak as the Armageddon norm - for the most part comparing Tuluk to Allanak and not the other way around.

No offense meant to anyone, so I hope none was taken. Just some thoughts on the topic.

[Red Ranger]

I think that "getting" Tuluk is pretty simple to define, and my personal definition is similar to Barzalene's and palomar's definitions.

To me "getting" Tuluk means:  1) Having OOC fun playing within the documentation, and 2) If there's something about your Tuluki RP experience that you don't like OOC'ly, then you work within the documentation to improve it.

That's it!

Also note that it's not bad to not "get" Tuluk according to my definition.  I don't personally "get" mudsex RP, but I don't dislike mudsex or mudsexers.  Is that bad?

[Taven]

I'd love to see a commers guide similar to the nobles guide. Because you know what? Learning to interact appropriately between social classes in Tuluk is hard. There! I said it! I'm new! *ducks head*

It's hard to make a guide like this because a lot of things are situational. Did you have any specific things you'd want to see in a guide (asides what is mentioned here)?

Docs say commoners and nobles are like, more familiar with each other than the south, but -how- familiar? How many dips of my head is taking it too far? Is it cool to buy one a drink? I know I can't touch one or sleep with one obviously, and that being -overly- respectful might be taken as either southernish or even sarcasm/fake flattery. So, there is this whole field of middle ground and I had the damnedest time (still do) figuring it out.

How familiar depends entirely on the noble, the location, and your relationship with them. Let's say you're an employee or partisan of a noble; they might be more casual and relaxed with you because of that, or they might not. If they dislike you, they may want to be more formal. Is the noble in question at the bar or not? There are clues in noble behavior that can clue you in on how formal they want you to be with them. Time is also a factor; if you have known a noble for a long time, they might be more casual. The individual personality of nobles also varies widely.

The only answer I can give is "it's situational" and "consider the signs in the noble's behavior". Generally, this isn't such a big deal. When in doubt, you can be a little more formal just to be safe. A noble generally isn't going to be upset if you're extra polite.

There is a lot of grey area in the interaction dynamic, so much so that it's hard for someone who doesn't have a lot of familiarity with the area ICly to learn how to behave. (not through docs, but actual play, hearing the random rules, laws, watching them get enforced, seeing the reactions of others in different situations, finding out bits of history type stuff that's not in the docs, watching how the different upper crusts interact between each other by viewing snippets of it etc)

This can also vary a lot depending on who the active persons in Tuluk are. Everybody has their slightly different flavor for how to play. An important part of Tuluk is also realizing who the power centers are. The nobles are obvious, but what commoners have what influence? This can be learned from observation. Don't give up, just keep playing! Most things can be learned that way, as long as you're actively trying.

So if I am retarded, go ahead and throw rocks at me or whatever. But I took me a long time to be able to figure out who cared about what and why and what would get me blank stares and what would get me thumbs up, and I'm still unsure sometimes.

Breathe! This is Tuluk, we don't throw rocks. We throw cleverly crafted, subtle insults. 

More seriously, in any location it takes awhile to learn who cares about what. In Tuluk it can sometimes seem more pressing, just because the playerbase is typically much smaller. Just keep paying attention and noting how people act.