Since we feel like talking about Tuluk again.

[musashi]

Tuluk is North Korea, with a wicked awesome spy system (I mean, they HAVE to have one, right? Without magick or anything...)

It is very hard to make it "dirty" and "gritty" there, when anywhere you walk, a Noble or Templar could walk who would find "that single piece of trash" to be "against what the Glorious Leader" would like to see. If you try to kill or mug someone, you're an outcast, because killing is wrong, in the eyes of the Glorious Leader. If you're brawling in the Tooth, its frowned upon, because Tulukis would -never- resort to punching someone out of anger. Its not like the Glorious Leader had to spill a thousand skins of blood just to initially take the Gol Krathu region for himself. He simply wanted it to be, and so it was.


I think there's a tad too much social stigma against being "rough and tumble" in Tuluk, with people calling anything gritty or terse "Southern and Barbaric". I'm not saying get RID of it, and maybe its just because the Sanctuary is the central and most popular tavern, but I've actually SEEN people get in a brawl in the Tooth, and the Legions show up to reprimand people and/or haul them away. So... NUKE IT ALL

Um ... I've seen legion soldiers brawling each other in the Tooth ... and the warrens have very colorful echoes to let you know just how gritty and dirty they are.

The way I see it, in Allanak ... Every quarter of the city commoners have access to is a dirty corpse strewn midden heap mess. But behind the high gated walls of the elite, things are beautiful and pristine.

In Tuluk, some Qynar are dirty. Some Qynar are clean, as befits the economic status of the area. The warrens and the red sun commons will show you some grit and dirty sweaty laborer s running around. The noble's quarter and the bardic circle will not, and while commoners can go in those places, they're expected to behave.

Tuluk might not have corpse piles because its a nicer, friendlier place than Allanak ... or it might not have corpse piles because it has furnaces. 

Honestly, I think the lion's share of "Tuluk is too polite and clean" sentiment is just a reflection of the fact that the Sanctuary is Tuluk's spawn location and thus defacto main tavern, while in Allanak, it's the Gaj.

The "main PC tavern" in Tuluk is an upper class one. *shrug* But if you can grab a few buddies and go populate a different tavern in the city, your gritty grit grit will not be out of place at all.

[HavokBlue]

Tuluk is obviously the more advanced society, having gone so far as to develop seven different tavern/bar type things for their citizens to populate.

[MeTekillot]

Tuluk is massive compared to Allanak. Seriously. I get lost any time I try to play in that place.

[Cutthroat]

The Sanctuary is a clean tavern but I wouldn't call it upper-class. People make a mess of it and it constantly gets cleaned up, according to room echoes. It's located near the wagonyard and stables and the faint scent of animal dung probably wafts in every time a light breeze passes the door. The main similarity between the Sanctuary and the Gaj besides the fact that new characters spawn there is probably that they are on the main roads into the city, and thus, welcome all comers. It's just that the Sanctuary expects people to be well-behaved and as clean as they can afford to be, while anything goes in the Gaj.

I agree with you about how the parts of Tuluk are obviously different. I think people who complain about the lack of grit in Tuluk tend to know this. It's not really hard to play a gritty character in Tuluk, and you basically have to impose the same limits on yourself as if you were playing the same type of character in Allanak, but it is hard to find like-minded people because middle- and upper-class society in Tuluk has a lot of documentation and support for it, so most people want to play on that side of things. I do appreciate those who do play lower-class people in Tuluk though.

[musashi]

Tuluk is obviously the more advanced society, having gone so far as to develop seven different tavern/bar type things for their citizens to populate.

To my knowledge there are five taverns in the Ivory city.
To my knowledge there are four taverns in the black city, we blew the fifth one up.

[RogueGunslinger]

Tuluk is obviously the more advanced society, having gone so far as to develop seven different tavern/bar type things for their citizens to populate.

To my knowledge there are five taverns in the Ivory city.
To my knowledge there are four taverns in the black city, we blew the fifth one up.

Really? You're counting the 'Rinth?

[Molten Heart]

I imagine the warrens in Tuluk being more like the Labyrinth in Allanak, only less extreme.  They'd have crime, small time gangs.

Tuluk is massive compared to Allanak. Seriously. I get lost any time I try to play in that place.

I agree with this, judging by the outside walls, it's roughly three times larger than Old Tuluk was.  As a result, I'm guessing it isn't as densely populated, but more spread out, not just the persistent city (which it obviously is) but also the virtual city.

Tuluk is obviously the more advanced society, having gone so far as to develop seven different tavern/bar type things for their citizens to populate.

To my knowledge there are five taverns in the Ivory city.
To my knowledge there are four taverns in the black city, we blew the fifth one up.

There are also three stables in Tuluk, they should scrap the one in Freil's and make one across from the Tooth, imo.

[musashi]

Yes. I was counting the 'rinth.

[Is Friday]

# of Rooms does not = Relative size, for a lot of areas of the game.

[Twilight]

Tuluk is obviously the more advanced society, having gone so far as to develop seven different tavern/bar type things for their citizens to populate.

To my knowledge there are five taverns in the Ivory city.
To my knowledge there are four taverns in the black city, we blew the fifth one up.

Really? You're counting the 'Rinth?

Gaj, Reds, Silver Ginka, Arboretum. (per the map, so public info)
We blew one up.  I think one burned down too.  Actually, make that two burned down, if you count the Rinth.

[BleakOne]

Don't forget the Azure Dragon.

[IronMonk]

I just don't understand. Just because Tuluk isn't a carbon copy of Allanak, it is horrible? It's a big world, with multiple cities, some places are different than others. Change it IC if someone wants, that is the biggest asset this game has. Like I said to someone earlier today, "Be the change you wish to see".

Honestly I enjoy seeing the patterns and events that occur organically inside a game, a hazard of one too many sociology classes I suppose.

Cheers,

IronMonk

[musashi]

Wow, so Allanak had even more taverns than I thought  

Tuluk is obviously the more advanced society, having gone so far as to develop seven different tavern/bar type things for their citizens to populate.

Right back at ya buddy!

Anyway, I wanted to reply to cutthroat because I thought his post was well thought out, and I agree with some of it, disagree with some of it.

The Sanctuary is a clean tavern but I wouldn't call it upper-class. People make a mess of it and it constantly gets cleaned up, according to room echoes. It's located near the wagonyard and stables and the faint scent of animal dung probably wafts in every time a light breeze passes the door. The main similarity between the Sanctuary and the Gaj besides the fact that new characters spawn there is probably that they are on the main roads into the city, and thus, welcome all comers. It's just that the Sanctuary expects people to be well-behaved and as clean as they can afford to be, while anything goes in the Gaj.

I agree with you about how the parts of Tuluk are obviously different. I think people who complain about the lack of grit in Tuluk tend to know this. It's not really hard to play a gritty character in Tuluk, and you basically have to impose the same limits on yourself as if you were playing the same type of character in Allanak, but it is hard to find like-minded people because middle- and upper-class society in Tuluk has a lot of documentation and support for it, so most people want to play on that side of things. I do appreciate those who do play lower-class people in Tuluk though.

I would call the Sanctuary as upper-class a tavern as Tuluk has to offer. Yes, unlike the Arboretum in Allanak, the Sanctuary is more open to the common caste, but I challenge you to name another tavern in Tuluk ritzier than the Sanctuary. It's the tavern the elite go to, and the fact that they brush elbows with commoners while there isn't an oversight or an incidental thing, its quite a deliberate cultural thing that dates back to the occupation and liberation of Tuluk from Allanaki control, but you knew that. I only mention for the sake of any newbies reading along.

Where as by comparison, I challenge you to name another tavern in Allanak shittier than the Gaj. It's the very bottom of the barrel, and we routinely rail on the GDB against anyone not dressed like a grebber hanging out in there. We don't need to look far to find people complaining about aides in silks hanging out in the Gaj ninja dodging all the vomit and fecal matter floating around in the air there, or bemoaning templar/noble PC's frequenting the place. I would say this is not an oversight or incidental thing either, its also quite a deliberate cultural thing. In Allanak, the city elite as so far above the common man's head that it's as if they live in another world. In Tuluk, it's not. They're more accessible. But again, I know you knew that already.

I agree with almost all of what you wrote there, except the last bit. I don't think it's a lack of documentation on the lower end that makes playing a rough and tumble in Tuluk difficult. I think it's almost entirely a function of the main tavern. PC's live in a microcosm. Make the Tembo Tooth the spawning point for Tuluk and give it a bit for people to shift over and start hanging out there more ... and we'd have more a rough and tumble feel in Tuluk. Make the Arboretum or the Silver Ginka the spawn point in Allanak and in time, you'll have a lot more people working for the noble houses wearing livery and collectively sneering at the vNPC commoners.

But the main tavern in Tuluk is the Sanctuary for a good reason, just like there's a good reason the Gaj is the main hang out in Allanak. They both set the respective mood for their city states.

So if you play in Tuluk, yes ... there will be more socialization with nobles going on, and you'll have to be on your best behavior when you do so, saving the grit for the warrens ... when you're sure there's no upper crust about to over hear you. Therefore ... gritty poor filthy commoner roles will be slightly more isolated than more prosperous ones.

And if you play in Allanak ... the reverse is true. You'll very rarely see the elite, most of the people are gritty, and those who play the upper crust of Allanak are therefore slightly more isolated than their poorer, more desperate counter parts.

----------

Given all that ... I do wish that the Byn could maintain a unit in the north, I think the Byn brings a certain level of socically acceptable scum to the environment and they would help make the dirty peasants feel more at home in Tuluk  
But ... well ... we probably just don't have the playerbase size to support a split clan like that. *sigh*

[Delirium]

but we would if we NUKED A CITY C'MON PEOPLE.

I have nothing else remotely constructive to add to this thread because I'm basically nodding along with what Malken and Cutthroat are saying.

[Riya OniSenshi]

There are six taverns in Tuluk.
Seven if you count the Ghaati.

[musashi]

There are more in Allanak if you also count the areas almost no PC's have access to as well.

[Riya OniSenshi]

Only one of the six non-teahouse taverns in Tuluk is restricted to most pcs.

One of the other five non-teahouse taverns is just as, or possibly more, high-class as the Sanctuary.

[HavokBlue]

I didn't mean to turn this thread into a tavern-dick-waving argument. My bad.

[Fathi]

Um ... I've seen legion soldiers brawling each other in the Tooth ... and the warrens have very colorful echoes to let you know just how gritty and dirty they are.

Unfortunately, for every anecdotal story about Legionnaires brawling in the Tooth, there's stories like the time my PC's entire unit was thrown out of the Tooth for being Bynners and being too dirty and grungy.

I think it's something that comes and goes in waves and is entirely dependent on who's in charge in Tuluk's clans at the time, but I've definitely felt as a player that there's a lot more pressure to be "nice" and "socially acceptable" even if you are playing a PC who would never enter the sanctuary or interact with high society.

I think Cutty hit the nail on the head:

It's not really hard to play a gritty character in Tuluk, and you basically have to impose the same limits on yourself as if you were playing the same type of character in Allanak, but it is hard to find like-minded people because middle- and upper-class society in Tuluk has a lot of documentation and support for it, so most people want to play on that side of things. I do appreciate those who do play lower-class people in Tuluk though.

I haven't ever had difficulty playing a "gritty" character in Tuluk, but I did find that every single one of my PCs was seen as some sort of charity case and encouraged to clean up and act better and "make something of themselves" or told that nobody would "take them seriously."

I never felt like there wasn't a niche for my gritty, dusty hunter/Bynner types... it's just that others in the city kept trying to drag my PCs out of that niche kicking and screaming.

[musashi]

Only one of the six non-teahouse taverns in Tuluk is restricted to most pcs.

One of the other five non-teahouse taverns is just as, or possibly more, high-class as the Sanctuary.

Which one? Now I'm curious. Ah wait, I think I know the one you mean. Forgot about the arena.  I dunno if I'd call it more swank though, its room description is not bedecked in artwork and velvet. It has lots of rough and tumble room echos in it as well given its local so close to a combat area.

To Fathi: I largely agree with what cutthroat was saying as well. I just don't think it has to do with documentation or a lack thereof. I think it has to do with what level in the social strata most player characters are at.

[RogueGunslinger]

Only one of the six non-teahouse taverns in Tuluk is restricted to most pcs.

One of the other five non-teahouse taverns is just as, or possibly more, high-class as the Sanctuary.

Which one? Now I'm curious.

Azure Dragon. It's new and sexy. And makes 8  or so, in 'nak. LOL

[musashi]

Only one of the six non-teahouse taverns in Tuluk is restricted to most pcs.

One of the other five non-teahouse taverns is just as, or possibly more, high-class as the Sanctuary.

Which one? Now I'm curious.

Azure Dragon. It's new and sexy. And makes 8 or 9 total, in 'nak. LOL

We were talking about Tuluki taverns 

[Cutthroat]

I understand your disagreements musashi. I think you better explained what I was trying to get at. Being gritty in Tuluk is possible, but also potentially isolating since not a lot of people are doing it. Part of the problem might be that there are a lot of roles to fill in Tuluk, so things can feel a bit lopsided when some of those roles are empty. People gravitate to the roles where they can be involved in a majority of the plotting. So after the Houses, bards, and templars are all filled up (or even when they're not), there's a tiny amount of PCs being all gritty and keeping mostly to themselves.

Fortunately, with the increased number of players in the game lately, there might be a chance some of this will resolve on its own.

[Patuk]

Um ... I've seen legion soldiers brawling each other in the Tooth ... and the warrens have very colorful echoes to let you know just how gritty and dirty they are.

Unfortunately, for every anecdotal story about Legionnaires brawling in the Tooth, there's stories like the time my PC's entire unit was thrown out of the Tooth for being Bynners and being too dirty and grungy.

Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat. You serious?

Only one of the six non-teahouse taverns in Tuluk is restricted to most pcs.

One of the other five non-teahouse taverns is just as, or possibly more, high-class as the Sanctuary.

Which one? Now I'm curious.

Azure Dragon. It's new and sexy. And makes 8  or so, in 'nak. LOL

Azure dragon isn't a Tuluki bar. Shit, try naming any bar in Tuluk after a dragon. Good luck.

[RogueGunslinger]

Only one of the six non-teahouse taverns in Tuluk is restricted to most pcs.

One of the other five non-teahouse taverns is just as, or possibly more, high-class as the Sanctuary.

Which one? Now I'm curious.

Azure Dragon. It's new and sexy. And makes 8 or 9 total, in 'nak. LOL

We were talking about Tuluki taverns 

I thought he was saying there's one tavern more classy than the sanctuary in allanak.