Since we feel like talking about Tuluk again.

[Malken]

There's also the fact that in Tuluk, if you are caught committing the most minor of crimes, even with a license, your character is pretty much fucked until they die. Get caught pickpocketing a PC? You will be known by everyone there by the next day, and, even if the Templars forgive you for it, the rest of the players definitely won't.

In Allanak, there's such a recycling of criminals that it's not as bad. There are so many rinthi elves roaming about that feeling someone's fingers in your pocket is /almost/ normal if you spend any amount of time there.

[Patuk]

In some ways, I'd like it if UnderTuluk was brought back, but there are also reasons both why it shouldn't and couldn't be brought back.

People keep saying this, and perhaps I'm missing something, but.. I really don't see why this is the case. Could someone who's been around for a longer time than I elaborate on it?

[Molten Heart]

In some ways, I'd like it if UnderTuluk was brought back, but there are also reasons both why it shouldn't and couldn't be brought back.

People keep saying this, and perhaps I'm missing something, but.. I really don't see why this is the case. Could someone who's been around for a longer time than I elaborate on it?

I think he's referring to relatively recent IC events dealing with the flood in Tuluk.

At the end of a full week of darkness, the shadow lifts from Suk-Krath to take its own place in the sky as a black moon which reflects no light. Shortly, a series of further crises strikes both cities. In Tuluk, repeated waves of murky water crash in from west of the Scaien Gates, leveling Red Sun Commons, destroying many buildings, leaving thousands dead, and flooding UnderTuluk.

Supposedly everyone there drowned and the whole are is now submerged in water, maybe even destroyed with the tunnels all being collapsed/washed out/filled with debris/wreckage, only staff know since that area is no longer accessible.

I'm of the mind that a lawless area is good to play counter to every civilized areas where criminal types can go to do their thing having a respite from the powers that be.  This helps foster conflict which Tuluk could really use of, imo.  As for the IC reasons as to whether such a place could exist, is ultimately up to the staff who have total creative control of the game world.  They could create a situation where new tunnels were made accessible creating a new sort of Undertuluk, or some completely other type of are that created a harbor for underworldly types.  The question is if it fits the staff's big picture of the game.  I'm sure if it did fit and there are staff willing to do the work required, such a place would exist, or would be in the works.  Staff could easily one day say "there's an earthquake!"  Shaking Tuluk up, doing damage to some buildings, and lo and behold, someone discovers some tunnels somewhere.  Stranger things have happened.

[Fredd]

There's also the fact that in Tuluk, if you are caught committing the most minor of crimes, even with a license, your character is pretty much fucked until they die. Get caught pickpocketing a PC? You will be known by everyone there by the next day, and, even if the Templars forgive you for it, the rest of the players definitely won't.

In Allanak, there's such a recycling of criminals that it's not as bad. There are so many rinthi elves roaming about that feeling someone's fingers in your pocket is /almost/ normal if you spend any amount of time there.

As someone that has played many, many stealthies, north and south. I disagree with your assessment of Tuluk, sir.

I've been caught, and yeah, people know. But that makes it a bit more fun. When people suspect you, but can't prove it, it's the mark of a master in northern culture.

[Patuk]

That explains why it couldn't be brought back, and it's something I already knew, but.. I still fail to see why it shouldn't.

[LauraMars]

Tuluk's interesting because it's been rebuilt on top of itself so many times.  The potential for a honeycomb of tunnels beneath the city is definitely there, even in its currently waterlogged state.

I do miss UnderTuluk.

[Malken]

Tuluk's interesting because it's been rebuilt on top of itself so many times.  The potential for a honeycomb of tunnels beneath the city is definitely there, even in its currently waterlogged state.

I do miss UnderTuluk.

Be the chaaaaaange, start digging.

Chaaaaaaange.. Be it.... *I always picture zombie-like players saying it like that each time they repeat it over and over again*

[palomar]

That explains why it couldn't be brought back, and it's something I already knew, but.. I still fail to see why it shouldn't.

Another vast area (a few hundred rooms) diluting the concentration of the playerbase in an already big city and the world in general. It may be my personal opinion, but it never felt properly connected to Tuluk. That is, it didn't have a feeling or mood that truly set it apart from its southern cousin, and it didn't really feel as if it was Tuluk's underbelly. Just an underbelly. Those of its residents who left the depths didn't really have a lot of reasons to go topside other than to stir shit up, whereas clanned rinthis usually (ideally) do when they go south.

[Patuk]

That explains why it couldn't be brought back, and it's something I already knew, but.. I still fail to see why it shouldn't.

Another vast area (a few hundred rooms) diluting the concentration of the playerbase in an already big city and the world in general. It may be my personal opinion, but it never felt properly connected to Tuluk. That is, it didn't have a feeling or mood that truly set it apart from its southern cousin, and it didn't really feel as if it was Tuluk's underbelly. Just an underbelly. Those of its residents who left the depths didn't really have a lot of reasons to go topside other than to stir shit up, whereas clanned rinthis usually (ideally) do when they go south.

Why is it a bad thing to have people coming in Tuluk with the purpose of stirring shit up? Hell, that's what 'nakkies think of rinthers, even if it's false.

[Suhuy]

I'm of the mind that a lawless area is good to play counter to every civilized areas where criminal types can go to do their thing having a respite from the powers that be.  This helps foster conflict which Tuluk could really use of, imo.  

Agreed. Though it's possible that Tuluk's lack of any lawless region is by design, I'm of the opinion that it serves as one of the city's more glaring (OOC) flaws. I imagine the reason to annihilate UnderTuluk was based more on OOC reasoning than it simply being part of the storyline. And while many players were quite fond of the region, I feel it didn't quite serve as the ideal counterbalance which the Rinth does with Allanak - I don't know why, but something about UT just seemed too remote and unplayable to me, though that's certainly going to be a matter of opinion.

Without a lawless region where criminals can congregate freely, unhindered by templarate/militia control, the end result is that everyone essentially gets along and is each other's buddy. If Arm weren't a game, but rather a novel, it might work quite nicely. In a story of this sort, Tuluk's greatest enemy would be itself, yet the fact that the people could not OPENLY war with one another would serve as the fuel for conflict which drives the story forward. In an online gaming context, however, I don't think this ends up happening. Instead, cooperation becomes the order of the day and things like RPing racism or social class distinction becomes diffused. This is further compounded by the fact that Tuluk has a concept of harmonic pretense, where negative things have to be done covertly in order to create an external facade of peacefulness.

During the Occupation, Tuluk (then simply known as the Northlands) was really in it's heyday, playability-wise, compared to now. The rebels had a secret hide out from which they launched occasional attacks and hatched their plans to oust the Allanaki occupiers. They could sneak into the Gol Krathu and pretend to be an average non-rebel Joe, but when things escalated they could run and hide in their own area. From a playability standpoint it didn't matter that the enemy was Allanak, it could have been Tuluk itself. The point was that there were two distinct sides, and both sides had areas where they could flee to, lick their wounds, and live to fight another day. In Tuluk, not only does every criminal have nowhere to hide, they also have to essentially be in cahoots with the templarate, thus diminishing the divide between what should otherwise be opposing sides. Anyone who aspires to build conflict must support the notion of opposing sides, even if the definition of those sides may blur at times.

Until Tuluk has another lawless region again (be it in the form of a rebel camp in the Grey Forest, a smaller section of catacombs after some of the water in flooded Under Tuluk dries out, or a section of alleys in the Warrens in which soldiers never/rarely venture) the templars and militia are, in essence, all powerful and cannot be conspired against (the ultimate conflict cockblock). It is as if every Tuluki has a dull black gem around their neck. Resistance really is futile. Gone are the days when great personas like Hekorz would steal into the Gol Krathu, boldly fire a volley of arrows at a soldier, and slip back into the safety net of his secret rebel camp. Suppression and stagnation reigns supreme in the modern times of the North, where people who want to do mean and nasty things have to actually get permission from their enemies before they can be mean and nasty in the first place.

[palomar]

Because the way things were, there couldn't realistically be any other reasons. Some minor trade in various resources is all. Ever tried getting in with Tulukis as a southron? Imagine if you were from a nearby place where people who actively shun the Sun King's Light decide to live in darkness? Good luck with that. In my experience, the successful PCs in UnderTuluk had no reasons to make more than very brief contact with the surface city.

[Riev]

Undertulukis were the ones that finally saw the truth in the Light, and how oppressive and fake the surface was. They didn't WANT to go up top because it was a terrible place, and living in squalor below worked perfectly for them. Think of Demolition Man, and the people that live below. They CHOOSE to live there rather than be a puppet upstairs.

And in that movie, they would steal up top to rob a Taco Bell, or cause a minor distraction to try and get people to "wake up" to the natural disorder of things. But they could always go back underground, until John Spartan went down there, because no self-respecting cop would DARE.

Like Suhuy said, without a place to be anonymous, in a game where there are MAYBE 20 people in your area at any given time, you're kind of screwed. Sure, there are PCs that understand that if I steal from them, but they have no proof of it other than I have something they used to have, I'm applauded and admired. But generally, nobody likes a thief or a criminal, Templarate sponsored or not. It seems like, if I were to steal from someone noteworthy, or steal something OF note, I could never tell anyone about it anyways. Either the person would want it back, or I would then be a 'braggart' and "not Tuluki". So why try to be bad, when I can just craft wads?

[Kismetic]

Make the alleys of Tuluk's Warrens lawless, and slap a shanty bar in there.  Hooray

[Potaje]

I'd like to point out there are more than two public gathering points in Tuluk.

Two of the others not mentioned are both hunter type gathering places from the descriptions. One of those middle crustish. The other more outlander, a place for those with ties to the wilds.

It would seem that if your pc is being harassed then start frequenting a different place. Pass rumors around to other bloodied hunters coming in that these other places are 'more accepting' to your kind.

That is the subtlety of handling that issue icly.

Eventually the owners of the Tooth might give a look to the soldiers harassing the clientele and hurting their profits. Then again there is a vnpc world that perhaps makes up for it.

[Iiyola]

That won't work, Potaje.

[Molten Heart]

Undertuluk's layout did leave something to be desired.  It was difficult to really get in and out of.  A more effective design (I think) would have several entrances/exits throughout the city that would in effect connect all sections of the city (with some even outside the city, allowing lifetime criminals to come and go from the city).  A really cool layout would allow for secret entrances to the various estates throughout the Ivory via Undertuluk.  Chosen lords and ladies with superhero complexes could sneak in and out at night, creating havok in the shadow of the Sun King, or maybe have their servants do it for them because that's unsavory business.

[Barsook]

UT is gone.

[Molten Heart]

UT is gone.

And it's a crying shame.

[Vwest]

I just don't understand. Just because Tuluk isn't a carbon copy of Allanak, it is horrible?

Tuluk is horrible for a lot of OOC balance reasons and I have no plans to play a character based there until they're changed.

The impression I get is people are discouraged from playing 'seedier' types by more then just a handful of prissy PCs, but by the design of the area from the coded and supported level. The things I like about Tuluk are many and at some point I would like to dig in and experience them more, but I cannot shake the impression it's designed to be a sandbox in a bubble for people more interested in the self-gratification of a very specific type of character then part of a brutal, desperate and dying world.

I've had the good fortune to see a lot of the game, Tuluk is the only place I've seen that feels like it doesn't quite click with everything else.

This brings me to my second point.. It really does seem as if anyone who doesn't wear lovely clothes without tears or blood or dust in them gets looked at as some kind of outcast. I've seen people at the Tooth with some stains on their clothes get questioned in the manner of 'why don't you just change clothes?' and get offered soap and one time even money for the cleaning lady should they give the sensible answer of 'what other clothes.' I've had gems and free equipment practically thrown at me because I'd occasionally come along on hunting parties or other kind of trips with wealthier characters, You can play a seedy character, certainly.. But with no areas or clans to back you up, a tavern that even in being nominally 'seedy' seems to be filled with the Zalanthan equivalent of germophobes, and a wide array of immensely rich pcs who will try to 'convert' any of the not-so-rich crowd into folk of their own status.. Yeah. I wish you sincere good luck.

Not a lot to add to that, other than it warrants being quoted and read again.

Desertman got the easy mode / hard mode thing pretty much spot on, too.

[Dalmeth]

The things I like about Tuluk are many and at some point I would like to dig in and experience them more, but I cannot shake the impression it's designed to be a sandbox in a bubble for people more interested in the self-gratification of a very specific type of character then part of a brutal, desperate and dying world.

Any strong, vibrant culture is meant to be this.

[Cutthroat]

You can play a seedy type in general if you don't allow yourself to be influenced by benefactors that seemingly want to give you free stuff or people who want to clean you up. It's pretty simple, really. If your character has been poor all his life, that is a natural reason for him to not trust such people or their offerings with possible strings attached. You can even play a seedy type with a clan to back you up if you use the legality of theft and assassination to your advantage.

I don't really get the argument that it's impossible to play such characters, yet Tuluk is "easy mode". The game is as easy or difficult as you want it to be, and Tuluk just has different challenges than Allanak has.

[razorback]

I've never played in Tuluk before, at least not full time. I've been there with clans of course, but never had a PC that lived there or called it home. In all honesty I don't find anything wrong with Tuluk being completely different than Allanak, because I thought it was supposed to be. I could be wrong though, because again my experience there is limited. I simply keep choosing Allanak because I know it, and I'm comfortable there no matter what race/guild I decide to come up with. For me Tuluk is the opposite of easy mode, because looking at it as a starting point (and home) of a future PC, I would feel as if I'm a complete newbie to the game again, which for me, well, I make enough mistakes. 

That being said...I think I will play there next PC, just to see what all the fuss really is about.

[Refugee]

Obviously there are people who like the Tuluk style of gameplay.
Obviously there are people who prefer the Allanak.

I think that's fine.  The more people you engage, the better.  Forcing people to play in the style you like is just as little fun for them as when you're forced to play in the style they like.

I think the solution is simple.  If you don't like one or the other of the cities, don't play there.

I don't understand the prevalent need I see groups have from game to game to destroy the areas  other people like but they don't.  Isn't it just fine to play where you want to play and let others play their game?  Tolerate diversity in your fellow geeks!

I've seen two games die because of this idea that cramming everyone together and making everyone play the same way is better.  People just quit and go looking for somewhere else to play that suits them.  While you might end up with all the people in the game to play with, that's not any -more- people than you had before you ruined the fun for people whose tastes are different than yours.

[Barzalene]

Whether you play in one city or the other, it's more fun if you assume other people will play correctly.

[Fredd]

I just don't understand. Just because Tuluk isn't a carbon copy of Allanak, it is horrible?

Tuluk is horrible for a lot of OOC balance reasons and I have no plans to play a character based there until they're changed.

The impression I get is people are discouraged from playing 'seedier' types by more then just a handful of prissy PCs, but by the design of the area from the coded and supported level. The things I like about Tuluk are many and at some point I would like to dig in and experience them more, but I cannot shake the impression it's designed to be a sandbox in a bubble for people more interested in the self-gratification of a very specific type of character then part of a brutal, desperate and dying world.

I've had the good fortune to see a lot of the game, Tuluk is the only place I've seen that feels like it doesn't quite click with everything else.

This brings me to my second point.. It really does seem as if anyone who doesn't wear lovely clothes without tears or blood or dust in them gets looked at as some kind of outcast. I've seen people at the Tooth with some stains on their clothes get questioned in the manner of 'why don't you just change clothes?' and get offered soap and one time even money for the cleaning lady should they give the sensible answer of 'what other clothes.' I've had gems and free equipment practically thrown at me because I'd occasionally come along on hunting parties or other kind of trips with wealthier characters, You can play a seedy character, certainly.. But with no areas or clans to back you up, a tavern that even in being nominally 'seedy' seems to be filled with the Zalanthan equivalent of germophobes, and a wide array of immensely rich pcs who will try to 'convert' any of the not-so-rich crowd into folk of their own status.. Yeah. I wish you sincere good luck.

Not a lot to add to that, other than it warrants being quoted and read again.

Desertman got the easy mode / hard mode thing pretty much spot on, too.

I love playing seedy types in Tuluk. I love playing ones that have no affiliation, and just live for themselves too. it's 100% possible. Yeah, it's not the rinth where your some hardcore gangsta. But it's 100% doable. As in, I have done it.