Since we feel like talking about Tuluk again.

[HavokBlue]

Only one of the six non-teahouse taverns in Tuluk is restricted to most pcs.

One of the other five non-teahouse taverns is just as, or possibly more, high-class as the Sanctuary.

Which one? Now I'm curious.

Azure Dragon. It's new and sexy. And makes 8  or so, in 'nak. LOL

Gladiator and the Gaj
Red's Retreat
Azure Dragon
Silver Ginka
Arboretum (since I'm counting the Tuluki one that isn't publicly accessible)

I dunno where you're getting all the others. The Rinth hardly counts. It's basically its own thing.


I think part of the reason Tuluk has such a "clean" appearance is because it lacks any distinct seedier elements. The warrens are shitty, but nobody there seems to be suffering like in the south.

[Riya OniSenshi]

Only one of the six non-teahouse taverns in Tuluk is restricted to most pcs.

One of the other five non-teahouse taverns is just as, or possibly more, high-class as the Sanctuary.

Which one? Now I'm curious.

As it's not listed on the map or in the help files at all, nor from a cursory search of the gdb, I'm not sure if I should out and name it - erring on the side of caution -  - I don't see anyone calling the Labyrinth bar by name... If someone else wants to name it, that's their business. But it's very close to the noble quarter, and the room echos are very much a step above the bottle-thieving breeds of the Sanctuary. I think it has some of the best tavern echos, actually.

[musashi]

Only one of the six non-teahouse taverns in Tuluk is restricted to most pcs.

One of the other five non-teahouse taverns is just as, or possibly more, high-class as the Sanctuary.

Which one? Now I'm curious.

Azure Dragon. It's new and sexy. And makes 8  or so, in 'nak. LOL

Gladiator and the Gaj
Red's Retreat
Azure Dragon
Silver Ginka
Arboretum (since I'm counting the Tuluki one that isn't publicly accessible)

I dunno where you're getting all the others. The Rinth hardly counts. It's basically its own thing.


I think part of the reason Tuluk has such a "clean" appearance is because it lacks any distinct seedier elements. The warrens are shitty, but nobody there seems to be suffering like in the south.

There are very likely more locked away behind gated areas most 'nakki PC's can't enter, I would imagine that's where the extra ones are coming from, FWIW.

[musashi]

I understand your disagreements musashi. I think you better explained what I was trying to get at. Being gritty in Tuluk is possible, but also potentially isolating since not a lot of people are doing it. Part of the problem might be that there are a lot of roles to fill in Tuluk, so things can feel a bit lopsided when some of those roles are empty. People gravitate to the roles where they can be involved in a majority of the plotting. So after the Houses, bards, and templars are all filled up (or even when they're not), there's a tiny amount of PCs being all gritty and keeping mostly to themselves.

Fortunately, with the increased number of players in the game lately, there might be a chance some of this will resolve on its own.

I agree.

I imagine this is the same problem in reverse down in Allanak.

But I think it's more a feature than a bug. The "PC spotlight" if you will ... shines on grubby desperate folk in Allanak, and it shines on prosperous politically inclined folk in Tuluk. That's where the PC bubble of the two cities are, respectively.
Doesn't mean desperate situations don't exist in Tuluk any more than it means prosperous political situations don't exist in Allanak, but they remain largely virtual in light of a small player base.

So ... ... if we NUKED ALL OF ALLANAK ... ... we could have both in one city, AND no filthy mages! 

[BleakOne]

Grumble mumble tree-hugging easy-mode blah blah 

Anyway, to switch to my serious face now, I think things are pretty great right now. Don't fix what isn't broke.

[ShaLeah]

TULUK SUCKS!

[Riev]

Given all that ... I do wish that the Byn could maintain a unit in the north, I think the Byn brings a certain level of socically acceptable scum to the environment and they would help make the dirty peasants feel more at home in Tuluk  
But ... well ... we probably just don't have the playerbase size to support a split clan like that. *sigh*

Nearest I can tell, and its probably wildly out of proportion, there are many reasons Tuluk has a hard time supporting the Byn.

1. The majority of contracts aren't escorts, but "hired hunter" style contracts. Get us mantis shells, or a silt horror shell, etc. Tuluk has plenty of hunters.
2. The second highest majority IS escorts, but players/PCs only think the path is dangerous -after- they die to a gith spawn.
3. Every time the Byn come up to Tuluk, there seems to be trouble. Someone tries to steal, or kill an NPC, or mouths off to a noble, or a myriad of other things. This has caused a lot of the city to believe that "The Byn is just a bunch of barbaric southerners and we don't have any use for them."

On the whole, though I believe what Cutthroat said is highly accurate. You CAN make a gritty character in Tuluk, but a lot of the social interaction is with Nobility, in the Sanctuary. It can be a little isolating.

[musashi]

Right Reiv, but I'm thinking the reason the Byn always causes trouble when they come up north is precisely because ... they're coming up from the south. It's not that they're bynner thus they stir up a shit storm and everyone hates them ... it's that they're southerners.

If there were northern born inked bynners running around I think it would be more acceptable to the northern citizens to use them for this and that. But as it stands, even though they aren't a geographically aligned faction, and they have a northern compound and have had it for ages ... northern pcs treat the byn like a souther militia clan and don't want anything to do with them. Because ever PC bynner they meet lives in, and was likely born in, Allanak.

But again, I just don't think we have the numbers to split the clan like that so I think I understand why the byn stays south, from an ooc perspective.

[Molten Heart]

So ... ... if we NUKED ALL OF ALLANAK ... ... we could have both in one city, AND no filthy mages! 

It is Allanak's turn to get nuked (excluding Luir's.)

[greasygemo]

I haven't ever had difficulty playing a "gritty" character in Tuluk, but I did find that every single one of my PCs was seen as some sort of charity case and encouraged to clean up and act better and "make something of themselves" or told that nobody would "take them seriously."

I fondly remember being ever so politely and casually being introduced to the >"use soap item" command at random in Tuluk. 

Iunno, I think it just depends on the players there at the time. You have a small gathering of good RP'ers, any area is god damned amusing. I've had pretty similar experiences on a scale of 0 to ohmyeffinggodsofunny/awesome/horrifying in both locales.

[RogueGunslinger]

I haven't ever had difficulty playing a "gritty" character in Tuluk, but I did find that every single one of my PCs was seen as some sort of charity case and encouraged to clean up and act better and "make something of themselves" or told that nobody would "take them seriously."

I fondly remember being ever so politely and casually being introduced to the >"use soap item" command at random in Tuluk. 

Iunno, I think it just depends on the players there at the time. You have a small gathering of good RP'ers, any area is god damned amusing. I've had pretty similar experiences on a scale of 0 to ohmyeffinggodsofunny/awesome/horrifying in both locales.

It is definitely the players that make Armageddon what it is. There is fun to be had everywhere in the game, as long as you're willing do play to the hilt with your character, and are around others willing to do so as well.

[Patuk]

Right Reiv, but I'm thinking the reason the Byn always causes trouble when they come up north is precisely because ... they're coming up from the south. It's not that they're bynner thus they stir up a shit storm and everyone hates them ... it's that they're southerners.

If there were northern born inked bynners running around I think it would be more acceptable to the northern citizens to use them for this and that. But as it stands, even though they aren't a geographically aligned faction, and they have a northern compound and have had it for ages ... northern pcs treat the byn like a souther militia clan and don't want anything to do with them. Because ever PC bynner they meet lives in, and was likely born in, Allanak.

But again, I just don't think we have the numbers to split the clan like that so I think I understand why the byn stays south, from an ooc perspective.

That.. Doesn't change when you're in the south. At all.

Hell, one of my own pcs got killed by a bynner right in the south.

I'm not quite sure what a northen bynner compound would look like in the first place. Something tells me that the whole use soap command would be the first to be taught to any old runner 

I think Tuluk has a lack of seedier elements in part because of a lack of support for them, and in part because the city itself discourages it. Allanak has the 'rinth and an active Byn militia, not to mention two Rinth clans(Jaxa Pah/Guild) for those people who want to carve out a niche for themselves in such places. Tuluk has.. One. -One- clan based out of the Warrens, the Akai Sjir, and even they are well-known artists who carve out pretty murals and are buddies with the templarate.

This brings me to my second point.. It really does seem as if anyone who doesn't wear lovely clothes without tears or blood or dust in them gets looked at as some kind of outcast. I've seen people at the Tooth with some stains on their clothes get questioned in the manner of 'why don't you just change clothes?' and get offered soap and one time even money for the cleaning lady should they give the sensible answer of 'what other clothes.' I've had gems and free equipment practically thrown at me because I'd occasionally come along on hunting parties or other kind of trips with wealthier characters, You can play a seedy character, certainly.. But with no areas or clans to back you up, a tavern that even in being nominally 'seedy' seems to be filled with the Zalanthan equivalent of germophobes, and a wide array of immensely rich pcs who will try to 'convert' any of the not-so-rich crowd into folk of their own status.. Yeah. I wish you sincere good luck.

[musashi]

Like I said, PC's live in a small microcosm of their own making. And in Tuluk, that microcosm is focused around the upper class commoners and nobility, while the seedier, more desperate gulag locales exist primarily via NPC's and the virtual world. "The city" doesn't discourage seedy elements. The city has plenty of seedy elements in it, they're just all largely un-populated by PC's.

But, is it silly and out of place for a PC in the tooth to try and teach another PC in the tooth how to use soap? Yes. It is.

Is it silly for a silk wearing aide in Allanak to go sit down in the Gaj and ninja dodge all the spilt ale and vomit? Yes. It is.

Are both of these things the result of PC's just wanting other PC's to interact with, thus taking their characters into places they probably would never go to if the player base was larger and interaction could be easily had elsewhere? Yes. Yes they are.

So I agree with you in so far as to say that yes, most player characters who play in Tuluk are playing upper class types and thus, you will be somewhat isolated if you play a lower class person, or you'll be immediately "helped" out of poverty because you have that magickal PC glow that screams opportunity. Can't blame them, it's what they're playing and they don't want you to feel like you're isolated OOC'ly.

Hence my saying I wish the Byn compound was active with a northern unit in it. I think it could provide some of that grit support. Give players a focal point around which to flock if lower class was their thing. But, meh. It is what it is.

[RogueGunslinger]

There are certainly enough fucking Bynners to accommodate that.

[musashi]

Don't get my hopes up 

[BleakOne]

The Byn would likely have an active northern unit if they could get a steady stream of work in that locale. A number of factors in Allanak make hiring the Byn a lot more common occurance there. I'm sure if something in Tuluk could keep Byn busy regularly, they'd likely be happy to stay.

A small problem for the Byn in the north (huh... sounds like something from Game of Thrones "The Byn in the North") is they are a lot less subtle than many clans. If they take down a wanted criminal, they usually want to parade the head of the scum from bar to bar to show how awesome they are and get new contracts. As well as the above mentioned fact that the majority of Byn contracts are 'go here, kill this big or dangerous thing, bring me bits', which is harder in the hunter-rich north.

Also. The Byn could probably fill both compounds with the new, larger playerbase, I'd imagine.

[Dakota]

Being gritty in Tuluk is fun. An if you ever want to mortify fancy PC's in silks.. Start a brawl in a tavern there.

[Scarecrow]

Also the Byn is currently overseen by the Southern staff team, so naturally most of the Byn action happens in the South.

[Scarecrow]

Also, Tuluk is bigger than Allanak. I've been through both cities extensively and Tuluk is way bigger.
Also you should all start a new war between Allanak and Tuluk because it would be awesome and a bloodbath.

[Barzalene]

The arboretum isn't really a bar, nor the Silver Ginka (unless I'm confusing it with someplace else entirely.)

[The Silence of the Erdlus]

I think our darling fellow pcs can start a war between the two city-states if they really try at it. HINT HINT

HINT

[palomar]

Coded opportunities for seedier, bottom of society roles that Allanak has, and Tuluk doesn't have:

A mostly separated slum/lawless area (the Labyrinth), with a couple of waterholes and two clans (the Guild and the Jaxa Pah). In Tuluk, the Warrens area is not as run down or lawless as the Labyrinth, and UnderTuluk is no more. There's one coded clan in the Warrens (Akai Sjir).

The T'zai Byn company also maintains a solid presence in Allanak, sweeping up a wide range of character concepts in their ranks, and a lot of them are lowly commoners.

Finally, there's the opportunity to play a gemmed magicker. While a few of those roles focus on becoming wealthy or work for powerful groups, most of them would be found at the bottom of society.

For those who are into riches and wealth (and politics etc), Allanak offers similar opportunities to that approach. Templarate, noble Houses, merchant Houses and so forth. Tuluk has two coded clans that offer some of this, that Allanak doesn't have: The Bards of Poets' Circle, and to some extent the Akai Sjir tribe.

It is not impossible to play a concept on the lower social scale. Actually most PCs start there and even stay there for the rest of their lives, no matter how wealthy and silky they become. Money doesn't equal status in Tuluk, which sometimes tends to be forgotten. I do agree with others who have pointed out that playing one of those decidedly non-exceptional roles can be lonely or awkward if you don't have peers to hang out with. To my knowledge at least three of the taverns (plus the Teahouse) see frequent use by various kinds of characters. Some probably spend time in all three, while others tend to avoid one or two in favor of the third. I can't see that it is a problem.

If seedier and grittier is what Tuluk really needs, it could do with some coded support for it. As it is now, it's potentially difficult sure, but not impossible.

[Desertman]

I have always felt this way...

Allanak = Hard-mode.

Tuluk = Vacation-mode.

There is nothing wrong with that. In fact I find it to be a relief honestly. On more than one occassion I have had my southern characters "vacation" in Tuluk. A lot of times because I as the player needed to take a "southern stress" break.

Food is more plentiful. Water is more plentiful. Art is more plentiful. Resources in general are more plentiful. The people are nicer, even if it is a fake nice, that is better than a legit open hate.

Do you get backroomed if you screw up? Yes. But only if you screw up. I have never been backroomed for something I legitimately didn't do in Tuluk. I have been backroomed for things I have done in Tuluk and I deserved it every time.

Edited here to Add: Part of the hard-mode to Tuluk would be the unfailing ability for Tuluk to pretty much always catch you doing bad things. I find it infinitely harder to play a criminal element in Tuluk. I guess that could be considered a "hard-mode" feature of Tuluk. It seems that the ONLY way to play a villain in Tuluk is to get the Templarate's permission first, and then, it isn't really a villain anymore.

In Allanak they kill you in the street for things you didn't do. They backroom you for things you never even thought about doing. Happened more than once to me heh. I'm not knocking it. That is part of what makes Allanak "where the big boys play".

I could be wrong and maybe I've just been REALLY REALLY REALLY lucky in Tuluk 100% of the time. If so, I hope that luck holds out.

[Fredd]

The Silver Ginka isn't really a tavern. It's more a place to eat very very expensive food.

[palomar]

Edited here to Add: Part of the hard-mode to Tuluk would be the unfailing ability for Tuluk to pretty much always catch you doing bad things. I find it infinitely harder to play a criminal element in Tuluk. I guess that could be considered a "hard-mode" feature of Tuluk. It seems that the ONLY way to play a villain in Tuluk is to get the Templarate's permission first, and then, it isn't really a villain anymore.

It is much much harder to hide from the Law in Tuluk, because there are no areas like the Labyrinth where the agents of the Law cannot go without considerable risk. That makes the city-based villain (operating outside the Law, without Templarate permission) a mind-bogglingly difficult concept in the North. This was possible when UnderTuluk was still in the game, and it was done quite successfully by some characters in the past (while some simply reminded of rinthi clones with northern accent). In some ways, I'd like it if UnderTuluk was brought back, but there are also reasons both why it shouldn't and couldn't be brought back.