Extended Subguilds - Feedback sought

[Pale Horse]

Chiming in with a critic of *gasp* a Non-combative ESG!

So far, I have only been able to play-test the Grebber, but from what I have seen, the skill-set that comes with it does nice to complement any guild that has a need to search for materials, be it for themselves or for another.  I like that it is not just a boosted scavenger sub-guild and leaves out a portion of what that venerable SG can do; staying true to the trope of what "grebber" has become known as.

I haven't branched what is pointed out in the help file for the ESG, as of yet, but I'm having too much enjoyment out of it to really care too much.  It will come when it comes and in the natural development of my character.

[Morrolan]

I haven't tried the extended subguilds yet, but I have not seen any obviously unbalanced characters due to their inclusion.

FWIW, this game is more "unbalanced" by actual experience and an understanding of the game world than by any of the skills or powers that come with karma.

[ShaLeah]

A friend asked me to post this: He would like to see city elves not able to take outdoor guilds like outdoorsman, and desert elves not able to take urban guilds like slipknife.

I don't like that. Why? What happens to a city elf without a tribe? He can be adopted into a wilderness tribe if he earns that trust. You gotta be able to live and learn the wilds. Maybe their Dad was city elf and their mom a tribal and Dad stole them and now they wanna go back to their roots? What happens when a desert elf tribe dies trade in the city and has to slit a throat or three? They call their good friends, The Guild? No, they send their sneaky trader/assassin in.

I'm not keen on restricting anyone's background/talent capabilities.

[Jenred]

edited - nevermidn

[Lizzie]

A friend asked me to post this: He would like to see city elves not able to take outdoor guilds like outdoorsman, and desert elves not able to take urban guilds like slipknife.

I don't like that. Why? What happens to a city elf without a tribe? He can be adopted into a wilderness tribe if he earns that trust. You gotta be able to live and learn the wilds. Maybe their Dad was city elf and their mom a tribal and Dad stole them and now they wanna go back to their roots? What happens when a desert elf tribe dies trade in the city and has to slit a throat or three? They call their good friends, The Guild? No, they send their sneaky trader/assassin in.

I'm not keen on restricting anyone's background/talent capabilities.

Because a city elf who learns to adapt to the wilderness is a desert elf, and a desert elf who learns to adapt to city life is a city elf. That is -why- the seperation of the two types of elves exist. If you allow a crossover, you might as well not bother having two distinct types at all. Also, in order to qualify as an "elf who adapts to desert life outside cities" you have to be a member of a -coded- desert elf tribe.

Desert elves are desert elves as a result of evolution, not as a result of training or skills they picked up from their cousin. City elves are what they are because of evolution, and not because of skills they learned how to do from their older brother.

[hyzhenhok]

Extended subguilds don't need to be limited in any way that regular subguilds are not. Elves have limited access to skills outside their element already through subguilds.

[Patuk]

Desert elves are desert elves as a result of evolution, not as a result of training or skills they picked up from their cousin. City elves are what they are because of evolution, and not because of skills they learned how to do from their older brother.

Not true. Desert/city elves being desert/city elves is nurture, not nature.

[RogueGunslinger]

Desert elves are desert elves as a result of evolution, not as a result of training or skills they picked up from their cousin. City elves are what they are because of evolution, and not because of skills they learned how to do from their older brother.

Not true. Desert/city elves being desert/city elves is nurture, not nature.

Dear lord lets not get into this one.

[ShaLeah]

Because a city elf who learns to adapt to the wilderness is a desert elf, and a desert elf who learns to adapt to city life is a city elf. That is -why- the seperation of the two types of elves exist. If you allow a crossover, you might as well not bother having two distinct types at all. Also, in order to qualify as an "elf who adapts to desert life outside cities" you have to be a member of a -coded- desert elf tribe.

Skills you can learn, a body's adaptation to its environment is biological. A city elf who learns to adapt to the wilderness is NEVER, ever going to be a desert elf, even if he's adopted into a tribe (coded).  Never.  A D-elf who adapts to the city is always going to be a d-elf (code wise).  

Technically any city born and bred entity that ventures to the wilds and learns how to navigate, live in and eventually thrive off of has earned the distinction away from a city <whateverrace> that has not learned to deal with the outdoors.

[Sephiroto]

ShaLeah is right.  While it is true that some of the differences between city and desert elves is cultural, some are also genetic.  City elves are diverged from desert elves.  This means that while very similar, both species have adapted over many generations to thrive in their niche environment.

Oh, and stop derailing the thread!

[TheBadSeed]

FWIW, this game is more "unbalanced" by actual experience and an understanding of the game world than by any of the skills or powers that come with karma.

Yep.

[Harmless]

Born and raised on the rough city streets, the Slipknife knows the
twists and turns of civilization like the back of their hand, and as such
they are adept at roaming the city unseen and lurking in dark corners. No
matter where in the Known World they make their home, one can often find
the Slipknife working as a petty thug or mugger. They can be adept at
delivering a critical strike, and can learn to strike swiftly with a blunt
instrument to knockout an opponent, or throw a blade from a safe distance.
They strike fear in others with their knack for delivering a fatal dose of
something nasty to their targets, and can attain a level of skill in these
areas second only to the Assassin.

Everything bolded is patently impossible to be true for a desert elf. I'm just saying, read the words, they don't apply to desert elves.

I think it's a fair argument to make that things that are patently impossible shouldn't be allowed.

However, the thief subguild has been legal for desert elves to take for a long while now, and let's see what is also contradictory in that description.

Thieves are able to snatch some small items on occasion as well as the
ability to quickly tuck away what they manage to grab using small sleights
of hand. They are able to approach their targets quietly as well as to
escape in a hurry since they often botch their attempts.

Oh. Nothing in here contradicts a desert elf.

Sorry Shaleah, but as it was written, I agree with not allowing desert elves to pick slipknife. Rogue, next.

Rogues are the perpetual ne'er-do-wells of Zalanthas, jacks of all trades
when it comes to making a dishonest living. They excel at scoping out a
potential mark, snatching small valuables or bits of coin, and can glide
through the city relatively unseen. In time, they may learn abilities that
take them down the more traditional path of the cat-burglar, enhancing their
skill at skulking about to the degree of being able to enter places unseen and
unnoticed. A Rogue knows that such a life is a dangerous one, and as such,
they eventually excel at scouting out potential threats.

As you can see, there is a lot less here that is questionable for desert elves. It's really just one part of it, and you could definitely make an easy argument that a desert elf can learn to sneak around in a city.  What it doesn't say in there, importantly, is anything like, "They were raised in the city."

Conclusion: Desert elves should be disallowed from picking slipknife, but not any of the other choices for subguilds.
Corollary: the description for slipknife could be edited to be made more general, or another, similar extended subguild that is sensical for desert elves should be added. (I prefer the new ext. subguild).

[Malken]

Pretty sure that d-elves are not allowed to play assassins (and burglars?), so I don't see why they should be allowed to play slipknives, yeah..

I could be wrong, though.

[ShaLeah]

Born and raised on the rough city streets, the Slipknife knows the
twists and turns of civilization like the back of their hand, and as such
they are adept at roaming the city unseen and lurking in dark corners. No
matter where in the Known World they make their home, one can often find
the Slipknife working as a petty thug or mugger. They can be adept at
delivering a critical strike, and can learn to strike swiftly with a blunt
instrument to knockout an opponent, or throw a blade from a safe distance.
They strike fear in others with their knack for delivering a fatal dose of
something nasty to their targets, and can attain a level of skill in these
areas second only to the Assassin.

I fix for you.

Conclusion: The help files should be rewritten.

Pretty sure that d-elves are not allowed to play assassins (and burglars?), so I don't see why they should be allowed to play slipknives, yeah..

I could be wrong, though.

You should try one some time.

[RogueGunslinger]

Too bad he can't, because he's right. You can't select city guild options with a d-elf.

[ShaLeah]

Too bad he can't, because he's right. You can't select city guild options with a d-elf.

Such as....?

A guild is -taught-. How good one is at a guild is dependent on a) how good the teacher is and b) how much talent the pupil has.  If that is the case, I would say d-elf merchants wouldn't be sewing silk braies or gowns, that's city folk shit. I maintain that no guild or subguild should be restricted based on race because anything can be taught if you have the talent and opportunity to learn.

[RogueGunslinger]

I mean you literally just can't pick any guild other than ranger, merchant, or warrior. Or possibly a magicker guild. The options for the burglars, pickpocket, and assassin aren't there.

[Harmless]

Okay, wow, Shaleah, not sure a font size quite that big is necessary.

There are multiple cities in the Known. The writing is ambiguous as to whether "where in the world" refers to that fact, or other areas of the known.

However, there are no cities in the tablelands, or in the Grey, or wherever else your desert elf tribes might hail from. There are villages, maybe tent cities. But those don't have streets...

[hyzhenhok]

Pretty much none of the guild/subguild helpfiles besides that slipknife one so heavily define your character's birth and background. That probably needs to be rewritten.

Delfs do not have access to city guilds, and Celfs do not have access to ranger. But AFAIK there are no subguild limitations. So really the question is, is it important to deny desert elfs whatever skills that rogue/slipknife/cutpurse provide that the normal subguilds do not?

My instinct is no, because it's not like the desert elf documentation and roleplay guidelines are going to change because they can start with backstab. If someone wants to spend CGP on an extended subguild that gives them a bunch of skills that their character will barely be bale to utilize so they can get a high cap backstab, pick or steal, all the power to them, I say.

[Harmless]

Yeah, this pretty much just comes down to whether or not we want delfs to have backstab or not. Before, there was no way they could get it; now, they can. So, is that a problem or not?

I noticed, too, that slipknives have a very specific description there. It's interesting that even rogue doesn't have that, and it was invented at the same time as slipknives were, conceivably. Was it written out that way for a reason, or not? Anyway we can be sure that at this point the staff are debating this issue as well, and they've already said things will get revised, so the proposal is on the table to broaden the scope of slipknives.

As for backstab and delves: If non delves are allowed to backstab when hunting, then delves should definitely be given that option as well. I am open to the idea of delves getting things in the slipknife skillset; but, I would like it more if there was more put into the background for a desert elf with that skillset, and even some specificity for when desert elves would need to make critical strikes out in the open. Or, even, when they would need to enter a city and backstab somebody there.

I have ideas floating in my head, but some of the details behind it feel like "too much IC info," and I wonder if I wouldn't rather just have the staff come up with that solution themselves.

[ShaLeah]

However, there are no cities in the tablelands, or in the Grey, or wherever else your desert elf tribes might hail from. There are villages, maybe tent cities. But those don't have streets...

All tribes, -all- tribes venture into the city at some point or another.

That probably needs to be rewritten.

It's not like the desert elf documentation and roleplay guidelines are going to change because they can start with backstab.

Conclusion: The help files should be rewritten.

Obviously we don't agree. I think anything can be taught if a person has the talent and I know a certain city where "city elves" spend an awful lot of time "hunting"...

I maintain that guilds and subguilds (barring magicks) should not be race or location restrictive.

[Adhira]

We can see that people have strong feelings on both sides of the elf + subguild combo. That will be something we consider when we look at things.  For now it's probably time to move on and put up other suggestions!

[Norcal]

The Master Jeweler subguild is nice, but the starting craft skills are miserly. Either bump them at start so they branch quicker, or add more. Also it would be nice for archery or at least one weapon skill to be included at start no matter what main guild is associated with the subguild. 

[Old Kank]

I've noticed a surprising lack of discussion about elementalist/ESG combinations, but I don't have any experience with them.  Did anyone try them and find them particularly broken, or overpowered or anything?

Once CGP goes in, there will be a handful of combinations that won't be available, and I'm not sure how I feel about that.  I don't mind the limitations, and keeping certain roles rare, but the implementation seems kind of arbitrary.  Muls, for example, will only get access to Master Crafter under the current CGP guidelines; they won't be allowed access to Weaponsmith or Master Armorsmith.  It seems to me that any combination should be available, even if it takes some extra effort to obtain.  Maybe an ability to build up surplus CGP?

[Harmless]

Maybe the ability to overspend their CGP and go negative, meaning it'll take longer for it to come back to 0 and higher.

Maybe the overspent CGP can only be for the extended subguilds, to limit its uses for other purposes. Otherwise, this could also be used to allow muls to be elementalists and such again -- the 8 karma player can get mul and an elementalist and an extended subguild, costing probably 7+4+3, bringing him to -6 karma after making that PC. Maybe we could keep it to just extended subguilds, when magick ext subguilds go in the mul could grab one of those.

That character would have a lot of potential, but the player would be forced to wait for over a year or longer for that to restore, or even have any karma or CGP requiring options available to them at all. Crazy.