Extended Subguilds - Feedback sought

[Adhira]

Alright guys,

It's been over a year since I implemented the extended subguilds.  I'd like to get some feedback on these.

Please be careful not to go in to the specifics of each class (skills etc). If you have something specific that you'd like to mention please feel free to submit that via request tool, General Question, and I'll get to them there.

What I'm looking to get a feel for is how everyone thinks the mix of these subguilds is.  Is there a subguild that you feel that is entirely missing?  Is there some skill or talent that you really want to see in an extended subguild?  This is for MUNDANE subguilds only. I realise people want to see the magick ones but there's some underlying code issues that need to be sorted with those and at this point we're not ready to look in to that.

Please keep commentary focused.  Let's not debate the merits of everyone's ideas. If people do post to disagree with you, ignore them!

Thanks for your help.

[ShaLeah]

The only feedback I have is to make it regular app already 

Make them karma and then make karma cumulative so that one can never go above their karma grade?

[i can haz mantis]

I still have yet to try one, but I really want to so please don't take them away! And yes, let's get to making them regular choices that don't need a spec app!

[Adhira]

I understand everyone wants them to be part of the regular apping process, I do too! Unfortunately that requires a rather large code change.    These were implemented how they are, via special app, in order for us to try them out but also so that they could be implemented without that change occuring.  It's not perfect, but we have a system in place, and we can make it work.  Morgenes did discuss in the last player staff chat meeting that he had been working on the code that was needed to make this automatic but that code got lost when ginka fried.  So it's on the cards, but there are other projects that are in the works before this one. 

Just putting that here so everyone can understand why this isn't automated. We all want that to happen, but there is currently no date for that to be happening. 

So - let's move on with the talk about the subguilds themselves, and how they are made up, since that is the part of the project that I have been working on and that I can do something about! 

[Malken]

Oh, I have been dying to speak about this.. I don't know how detailed you want this to be, but I'm going to go ahead and say that the combination of warrior/outdoorsman is VERY insanely powerful, it makes me never want to play rangers again.. I don't want to get into skill details, but let's just say that when I played it, I was very surprised at how far I could go in the many skills I branched and started with.

Compared to that, an aggressor subguild left me somewhat 'meh'. I tried ranger/aggressor to see how it compares to warrior/outdoorsman and the difference is massive.

I would be happy to tell you via request why I think maybe you need to lower some of the skill levels allowed if you haven't done so yet.

But let's just say that if you don't change anything and that special applications wouldn't be required, I'd probably play nothing but warrior/outdoorsman forever.

PS: I think that if I said which character I played under using warrior/outdoorsman, people would suddenly realize what I'm talking about and agree.

[MeTekillot]

I only played one, and that was an aggressor. I suppose it was a nice change of pace to have an otherwise non-combat guild have a little bit of teeth, compared to playing a guild like that sans the aggressor subguild.

[The Silence of the Erdlus]

I like more subguilds/guilds/options/whatever better than fewer; I never liked knowing what guild/subguild combo a person had when it was possible to go about your day without knowing. I believe we can and should erase that, or diminish it somehow.

[Bluefae]

     I have to admit, at first I thought the extended subguilds were going to be more trouble than they were worth, and promote power-gaming.  I applied for my first one with a sigh, and a sense of "keeping up with the Joneses".  However, I'm not afraid to admit when I'm wrong, and I've seen the way they've truly enriched the game-world and my own play experience.  It's exciting not to be able to easily peg someone's coded capabilities, and it also helps deepen the sense of verisimilitude so vital to suspension of disbelief.  I believe they allow one to implement a wider variety of concepts, as well as having some damn interesting combinations of skill-sets from a game-play perspective.  As my own appreciation for Armageddon's mechanics has deepened over the years, I think they're a great addition that has been skillfully executed staff-side.

     With the above in mind, I'd love to see some kind of "Wrestler" extended subguild, one that included subdue (for all the same reasons we have the Aggressor and Protector ones currently).  I'm in no hurry to see the magic ones implemented, as I adore the relative scarcity of magic in Armageddon; it continues to be a feature of the setting that appeals to me, though I'm probably in the minority on this one (I'll also point out here that with the addition of the ext. subguilds, magickers are no long "just a list of spells"; they can now have entire other careers, and thus become more intriguing for me and perhaps others to play).

[BadSkeelz]

I've only seen them played by others (I think), and admire the versatility extended subguilds have given those characters. They look like very powerful tools for blending archetypes, which is something I'm very much in favor of. That said, I can understand Malken's concern. Since the extended subguilds are, for all intents and purposes, pared down regular guilds, combining those attributes with the strength and survivability of a warrior is always a potent.

[Dalmeth]

Protector is a bit weak for an extended subguild.  Many of the others seem geared toward changing the way a  regular guild plays, and all the skills awarded to it are complimentary.  They don't actually accomplish anything in combat, where HP loss gauges effectiveness.  At most, they can draw combat out, but the combatant will inevitably lose.

Granting basic weapon capability, at least enough to identify weapon types, and granting capability in the other weapon styles, just for flavor, might make it more generally useful.

[bcw81]

I would like to see more actual weapon skills added to these subguilds. Slipknife especially. Sometimes you just want to make a merchant with a little kick to them, and sometimes you would rather that kick not come in the form of a sword. Also: So many things could use piercing weapons.

[shadeoux]

Outdoorsmen - With the right class/race combo this is a very OP'd Sub, but it makes other classes become more viable too.
Weapon/Armorsmiths/Jewelry/Tailor - Once again, a good tool for extra income and it allows guilds to hide easily, which I like.

The ones that didn't appeal and I have 0 intention of trying, Master Crafter, Master Trader, Protector, Grebber, Cutpurse and Rogue

On the Edge about : Slipknife and Aggressor - Aggressor I would add in all the basic weapon types. Instead of just the ones it offers from what it sounds like in the docs.
Often possessing some martial background, Aggressors are skilled with swords and other cutting weapons.
Perhaps allow the spec app to choose what weapon skill you want to use, since you need to have an Imm set you up anyway?

[hyzhenhok]

Protector is a bit weak for an extended subguild.  Many of the others seem geared toward changing the way a  regular guild plays, and all the skills awarded to it are complimentary.  They don't actually accomplish anything in combat, where HP loss gauges effectiveness.  At most, they can draw combat out, but the combatant will inevitably lose.

Granting basic weapon capability, at least enough to identify weapon types, and granting capability in the other weapon styles, just for flavor, might make it more generally useful.

I disagree. I think Protector is way better than Aggressor--it gives truly core combat skills, while from what I can guess from the help files, Aggressor just gives the frills. I think Aggressor needs to be buffed with weapon skills or subdue; right now I can't see why I would ever choose Aggressor over Protector if I wanted to make a combat oriented non-warrior. (Re: Malken, this is why I'm not surprised a ranger/aggressor felt much weaker than a warrior/outdoorsman.)

Since I've only tried one ext. subguld so far myself (Protector) I can't comment too much on the others.

Edit: Did you try Protector on with a guild that doesn't start with weapon skills? There may be something there after all.

[Adhira]

Just to add to these - while a staff member sets up the subguild these are already created, so we don't grant individual skills etc.  If we did it that way we'd end up losing things, it's not ideal.  These subguilds are ones that are set up in the codebase so they auto give you the skills and set when they branch, cap etc.  (Just to help with visualizing).

Malken, if you'd like to put in a request and detail a bit more about what you're talking about I would appreciate it.

The intention of these was to complement the existing subguilds and go in to a little more depth than they currently do.  More info on what you all think is missing would be great. It may be that we are missing something from our regular subguilds also.

[Kismetic]

Since the helpfile makes it fairly obvious that Aggressor has slashing weapons skill, I would recommend removing that, and adding in Subdue and Charge.

Add in an option to purchase a regular weapon skill at 2 CGP, or an advanced weapon skill at 3 CGP.

I like the idea of having a good Archery subguild, so I hope you don't change Outdoorsman in that regard.

Everything else seems pretty awesome, but unfortunately, I couldn't comment to their balance from lack of experience.

[Malken]

I disagree. I think Protector is way better than Aggressor--it gives truly core combat skills, while Aggressor just gives the frills. I think Aggressor needs to be buffed with weapon skills or subdue; right now I can't see why I would ever choose Aggressor over Protector if I wanted to make a combat oriented non-warrior.

I agree with you, kind internet sir.

There's not much point in having combat-oriented skills if you don't have some basic defense skills to go with them. The other way around is more useful.

If you take aggressor with a main guild that have some basic protection skills, then the skills you get from aggressor are just 'ehh' at best. Also, the skill that branches from it takes way too long to branch, you'll be long dead before you ever get it.

For the price of three karma, aggressor isn't really worth it, compared to a subguild like outdoorsman and slipknife, which costs the same.

I don't want to go into details, but I think aggressor should give you the weapon max + branching of a warrior, if outdoorsman does the same as a ranger guild with the skills you get.

Oh, I'll send you are more detailed request in a bit, Adhira

[Harmless]

I feel like warriors that choose an extended subguild should also get a nerf of some kind to balance basically what Malken is saying here.

The reason? The major limitation of warriors, until now, were that they got so few support skills, and that they needed to think hard about their subguild choice. Especially when it came to outdoorsy skills. There was no perfect subguild for warriors; it felt like chess where every subguild choice had pros and cons.

As for other main guilds + extended subguilds, I think for rangers, assassins, etc, the extended subguild is like mixing cabernet with shiraz wine. Maybe it's better, but I wouldn't bother looking because no extended subguild is going to make those guilds significantly better at combat with the way combat is coded in this game.

Now, as for non-combat characters: the crafting extended subguilds are all awesome and I think much appreciated. However, as for the "normally nonthreatening given teeth" notion -- again, as with assassins or rangers, the combative extended subguilds seem like taking your totally puny chihuahua and putting a spiky collar on its neck. It might make a mouse into a fearsome honey badger among his peers, but when the wolverine warrior rolls in it's all over anyway, and most conflicts seem to involve at least one character who is focused on combat. In other words, it might feel nice to walk around with a few combative tricks up your sleeve, but I don't see how it significantly balances the equation in the end.

The above comments about combative subguilds are probably more commentary on the value of combative skills themselves, and armageddon's combat system in general, but I think that spells out more why people here have said the aggressor/protector/slipknife choices for instance are unpopular.

[Bushranger]

I've played with a couple of the extended subguilds and I've enjoyed the ones I played (Slipknife and Master Trader).

I didn't get very far into the Slipknife to see the extent of their skills but the collection it added was interesting.

Master Trader was really good but does have a major problem in my experience. A non-merchant Cavilish speaking subguild is something a lot of people have expressed interest in on the forums and I found Ranger/Master Trader to be an excellent travelling salesman. That said I believe whoever made the class was confused and gave it a crafting skill that doesn't actually do anything for a Master Trader and yet left an important trading skill out of the mix. I have put in two requests about this issue as feedback already, one where Adhira mistook what I was asking about and one where Nyr said they would look into it but I've heard nothing back one way or the other.

[tiptoe]

I've only tried two of the extended subguilds, but enjoyed them in both cases.

Slipknife, I didn't get to get too in depth with, but the starting skills were efficient. Even with a non-combat orientated character, they helped make them a little more self sufficient. Definitely not able to go hunting from char-gen, but with enough training they could probably have held their own against some things.

Outdoorsman was the other one I tried, and I absolutely loved it. Made the character more than able to take care of themselves outside of cities. And while the skills went a bit higher than I imagined they would, I don't think it was enough to make them overpowered. A warrior/outdoorsman is probably my favorite combination, now. And it has the potential to be a little unabalanced in regards to the other guilds, but I really thought that was the point of the extended subguilds. You get an advantage with karma. I suppose if this is really an issue, you could just make the combination of warrior/outdoorsman cost another CGP.

[Patuk]

I've not played any of them, but I already think warrior/hunter is ridiculously useful, and outdoorsman is just hunter on 'roids. Malken is probably right on this one.

I'm not sure if this would ever happen already, but it might be nice if people who take some of the vanilla crafter subguilds could get their skill limits buffed up to master if they survive long enough and RP out the use of their skill for a long time.

They seem fine to me otherwise.

[X-D]

Actually, Hunter and outdoorsman are different enough that it is still a choice to make....unless outdoorsman branches a certain skill...otherwise I think it is well balanced. Although I was surprised that they don't get the same ability both scavenger and ranger get. Which was a bit jarring since the sub name is outdoorsman.

Slipknife...meh...to be honest, I would not pick that again and waste a special app or cgp. Thug sub is, in my opinion, a better sub at no cost. And with some of the same max's.

They can be adept at delivering a critical strike, and can learn to strike swiftly with a blunt
instrument to knockout an opponent

If I had my way, I would take out the red skill and replace it with the blue at the same max as the red. Then add in a middling max blunt weapon skill. Course then you would have to change the name to Mugger or something.

Summery: Outdoorsman, almost what I expected it to be. Slipknife, seems lacking in usefulness and cohesiveness.

I intend on trying rogue next...will let you know when I do.

[brytta.leofa]

I intend on trying rogue next...will let you know when I do.

(shiver)

I'll throw a shout out for the merchanty subguilds: I played a special app very nearly equivalent to one of those (with a combatant main guild).  What I loved: I never ever felt limited in potential by my guild choices.

[Dakota]

I'm not sure what to write with all the code talk I'd need to do about my experience with Slipknife and Rogue...

I def think Slipknife needs... Something though. City Hunt.. A high piercing weapons cap. Razor.. Something like that. 3 Karma is kinda a lot.

[Malken]

Actually, Hunter and outdoorsman are different enough that it is still a choice to make....unless outdoorsman branches a certain skill...otherwise I think it is well balanced. Although I was surprised that they don't get the same ability both scavenger and ranger get. Which was a bit jarring since the sub name is outdoorsman.

You seriously think that if given the choice, people would pick hunter over outdoorsman? 

You must not have played the subguild to its full potential to be thinking that.

Well, I wrote a whole detailed post about why I think you're absolutely wrong, but I sent it to Adhira instead..

Now I was thinking that slipknife would be just as strong as the outdoorsman ext. subguild would be, and make assassins just meh compared to warrior/slipknife, but from what I read, it's not the case. So now I'm curious about it and I'll probably be trying that out next. (Or warrior/rogue, too.)

Actually, warrior/everything 

[CravenMadness]

Yea not too sure what to write here... I'm actually still living my first extended app character ... ranger/aggressor.  Seems to be working alright for me heh.  I also don't have a huge pool of experience, but I do get the feeling they are right when they said above that you'd probably die before branching the 'golden carrot' of the aggressor ext.subguild.

I really just knew that the character concept I was going for would be spending a vast majority of it's life outside, and wanted toe to toe combat potential as well so... Went with that combination.