You are stunned, and unable to move.

[Qzzrbl]

I don't know about those other things, but sap is too powerful in my opinion.

Damn near every skill related to combat could be considered overpowered at high levels. x-X

[Scarecrow]

I know, but I don't mind those others. Sap just feels cold and unsatisfying, I might be biased because I lost a beloved character to some douche who city street sapped and murdered him (thus ruining several delicately crafted plots and hugely rich potential) but sap is not fun. I don't like sap.

[Is Friday]

I hate to break it to you--but just about every way you die in this game is unsatisfying, quick, brutal, and often leaves you with no clue to how it happened exactly.

[Qzzrbl]

Sap just feels cold and unsatisfying.

I feel ya there man.... Just about everything that sends you to the mantis-head post-haste before you get a chance to do anything is that way, pretty much.

You'll eventually learn there's a ridiculous amount of things other entirely mundane PCs can do to kill you before you even know what's going on. D:

Death ain't pretty.... Ain't supposed to be. <3 Arm for reflecting that.

[Scarecrow]

I know Zalanthas can be like that, but all I'm saying is I think sap is overpowered. And it's the only death of a character i've had which was totally out of blue, totally unknown to the reason and totally annoying. I could  handle pretty much any death but that. I was so irritated by it I almost quit Armageddon entirely, but didn't since I'm too addicted to ever quit.

[Qzzrbl]

I know Zalanthas can be like that, but all I'm saying is I think sap is overpowered. And it's the only death of a character i've had which was totally out of blue, totally unknown to the reason and totally annoying. I could  handle pretty much any death but that. I was so irritated by it I almost quit Armageddon entirely, but didn't since I'm too addicted to ever quit.

At least you went out quickly and relatively quietly.

Nothing's worst than a reel-lock death that has you spamming "flee" as you watch your HP chip away.... But really, there's nothing at all you can do about it.

ANYHOW!

Back to the discussion at hand, kiddies.

[Kiara]

I hate to break it to you--but just about every way you die in this game is unsatisfying, quick, brutal, and often leaves you with no clue to how it happened exactly.

[Marshmellow]

Make knockout go negative with a reasonable regeneration. As an alternative idea.

Still, I think the better solution would be to simply allow for negative stun, and when you're at 0 or less you are unconscious.  Then, your normal regen would take care of getting you conscious.  Simple, efficient, effective and realistic, I think.

[Delstro]

I have been dazed several times. I've gone into shock twice. I've also been KO'ed twice.

It would be cool if you were severely dazed if you were in the range of 0 - 10 stun. If you move, or do anything requiring stamina, hp, or stun, you will incapacitate yourself.
It would be cool if you were knocked out when you hit -10 - 0 stamina, but for only about ten minutes, then you would be dazed for a while.

[James de Monet]

It would be cool if you were severely dazed if you were in the range of 0 - 10 stun. If you move, or do anything requiring stamina, hp, or stun, you will incapacitate yourself.
It would be cool if you were knocked out when you hit -10 - 0 stamina, but for only about ten minutes, then you would be dazed for a while.

Agreed.  I have seen people knocked old cold before, but it was usually from being choked out (read: strangle or carotid restraint).  This is a little bit different, I am sure, but usually results in fewer than 30 seconds of pure, limp fish, lying cold on the floor, followed by several minutes of disorientation, and the rest of the day feeling off and (oddly) slightly euphoric.  Instead of incapping yourself while trying to perform actions in the 0-10 or post awakening stage, why not just apply a very similar code to the drunk code?

Code Select Expand


You are affected by:
   Head Trauma

>w
You attempt to walk, but trip and fall on your face.


The one good thing I see in the current coded implementation is that it reinforces the idea that getting knocked out is a BAD thing.  Getting knocked out by stranglehold is (theoretically) not permanently damaging, but it does leave one in an odd state for a few hours in which performing other physically or mentally demanding tasks would probably be a bad idea.  Getting knocked out by blunt force trauma could only be worse, I would think, with the very real possibility of permanent mental damage, besides.  If reducing the KO time is going to have people bouncing up and saying, " I was only out for 30 seconds, I'm good for another round," honestly, I'd say it would be better to leave it as is.  (Besides, people get knocked out for 2-3 hours all the time in movies, right?   )

[Shepard]

The only think I WOULDN'T change, is being knocked out due to booze. More often than not, when you black out, you are as such for a few hours.

Not sure if these are two different things codely, but this should be taken into consideration.

1. I've been knocked out two times, both lasted 5 minutes or so. So, a knock to the head, should just be reflected as 5 minutes in game, after Zalanthians aren't human, apparently they have weaker brains and they get knocked out for thirty minutes.

2. Falling unconcious due to being hacked to death, should remain as is. I.E. -HP. It sucks waiting 20 minutes or so for this, but if I hack you up with a sword in RL, you're likely going to bleed out, not heal, so this can remain.

3. Drinking, I've passed out until the next morning, so keep it as is.

[RogueGunslinger]

Make knockout go negative with a reasonable regeneration. As an alternative idea.

Still, I think the better solution would be to simply allow for negative stun, and when you're at 0 or less you are unconscious.  Then, your normal regen would take care of getting you conscious.  Simple, efficient, effective and realistic, I think.

Great minds, and all that jazz.

[Drayab]

I've been knocked out before, too. Actually, I got the wind knocked out of me and forgot how to breathe for minute. I would estimate the amount of time I was unconscious at less than thirty seconds. That doesn't mean knockouts in Arm should last thirty seconds. The point is, all knockouts are not created equal, and they would be better represented by a continuum that starts with 'collapsing from overuse of the Way' and extending to 'bashed over the head with a baobab log by a half giant.'

And yeah, I think the negative stun idea is a good move in that direction.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Still, I think the better solution would be to simply allow for negative stun, and when you're at 0 or less you are unconscious.  Then, your normal regen would take care of getting you conscious.  Simple, efficient, effective and realistic, I think.

Yep. I can get behind this. Someone punched by a giant when they had 1 stun point to begin with should certianly be out longer than someone who was punched when they had 40 stun to begin with.

[Qzzrbl]

Still, I think the better solution would be to simply allow for negative stun, and when you're at 0 or less you are unconscious.  Then, your normal regen would take care of getting you conscious.  Simple, efficient, effective and realistic, I think.

Yep. I can get behind this. Someone punched by a giant when they had 1 stun point to begin with should certianly be out longer than someone who was punched when they had 40 stun to begin with.

I'd say that's even better than my original idea.

[hyzhenhok]

Still, I think the better solution would be to simply allow for negative stun, and when you're at 0 or less you are unconscious.  Then, your normal regen would take care of getting you conscious.  Simple, efficient, effective and realistic, I think.

Yep. I can get behind this. Someone punched by a giant when they had 1 stun point to begin with should certianly be out longer than someone who was punched when they had 40 stun to begin with.

I'd say that's even better than my original idea.

+1

That way "You slip and land on your neck!" doing however much stun damage it does for a critically failed ride or climb check will still knock out low endurance characters, but they'll recover quickly and instead just be disoriented for a while.

[jalden]

I've seen my fair share of knockouts.... Kids fighting in school, UFC, boxing, etc., etc., etc.... And I've never seen anyone knocked flat on their ass, completely unconscious..... All I usually see, are people getting "stunned".

Still conscious, can still hear, see.... But unable to do much else...

I think it'd be pretty damn awesome for there to be a "stunned" stage based off of, you guessed it, stun points, that comes before "completely knocked the FWAUCK out!".

.... Discuss.

Most concussions do not lead to going completely unconscious. The classic tv *hit them on the head once to completely knocks them out* really would be the exception to the rule. I think it would be pretty badass to have a range (like 0 to -10 stun) where you are conscious but completely helpless.

I have no idea how hard this would be to implement, but it also might be neat to have everything you see/hear garbled when you are stunned.   

[Is Friday]

I've seen my fair share of knockouts.... Kids fighting in school, UFC, boxing, etc., etc., etc.... And I've never seen anyone knocked flat on their ass, completely unconscious..... All I usually see, are people getting "stunned".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=40-Nr6lKNMU

Had to.

[Dar]

The problem with having short, unpredictable stunned timelengths is that it's a bother for people who need to disable a person, but dont want to kill him. Sometimes, you're doing something truly risky. You're shaking in your boots really, you knock the person out and hurrying to do whatever it is, before he wakes up. Especially if it's the type of person that does an <stand/insta run> kind of thing. This way, the knock out is pretty reliable so you can do your thing and keep the other chara living. Being more unpredictable, it just improves the chances of deciding to just off the chara completely, and then do your thing in comfort.

[hyzhenhok]

The problem with having short, unpredictable stunned timelengths is that it's a bother for people who need to disable a person, but dont want to kill him. Sometimes, you're doing something truly risky. You're shaking in your boots really, you knock the person out and hurrying to do whatever it is, before he wakes up. Especially if it's the type of person that does an <stand/insta run> kind of thing. This way, the knock out is pretty reliable so you can do your thing and keep the other chara living. Being more unpredictable, it just improves the chances of deciding to just off the chara completely, and then do your thing in comfort.

If you need to do a "thing" that required them to be completely incapacitated for more than an IG hour but you don't have a place to lock, a friend to watch over them or some other plan to deal with them, it's probably more realistic that you would kill them anyway. And the point is kind of that it really isn't realistic for you to be relying on a 2 hour knockout for doing whatever "thing" you're doing; if you need the entire knockout duration, chances are it's unrealistic. If someone with maxed sap has to get a friend with subdue or secure a lockable room or cage or has to make the decision to kill the person (and deal with the ensuing consequences), IMO that's all the better.

I'm thinking it would be sweet to have a -10 to 0 range where you're stunned.  If your stun goes below -10, you're knock unconscious and it takes 5 minutes to recover to -10. From -10 it then takes about 5 more minutes to get to 0 depending on your natural stun regen, where you then regain control of your character. People only dropped to -5 or -1 stun recover much faster. You can sap or punch a stunned person to put their lights out if you want the guaranteed maximum incapacitation.

[Marshmellow]

If we go with negative stun and you knock someone out, just punch them a few more times for more stun damage to put them even further into unconscious.  If there's a partly-stunned state, like 0 to -10 like there is for hit points, where a character is conscious but helpless while in that range, whoever had this person KO'd could punch them again while they're still helpless and put the victim back into unconsciousness easily enough.

[MeTekillot]

There should be negative stun, but when recovering from being thrown into negative stun, it should be about the same recovery rate as healing while put into negative HP range.

[Kryos]

The simple answer is the source of KO;

Falling several stories could leave you dead or in a coma, let alone KO'd.  Arm's KO time is probably good here.

Getting KO'd in a fight rarely lasts more then a minute or two, but is very dependent on the source.  Busting a giant stone club over a head is more like the first example, getting punched out is radically less enduring.

And then way KO.  This should likely only last for a very brief moment.

[X-D]

I suppose I should weigh in.

First, yes, KO durations are quite silly, they should never last more then 5 minutes RL, I mean come on, that is still .5 hours IG.

Second, No, I don't think anything else should change.

[roughneck]

I wouldn't mind have -10 stun points before you're out cold.  From 0 to -10 you would be stunned, awake but unable to do anything and you snap out of it much faster but if you drop below that -10 you're in a coma sonny and you deal with the 20 minute wait in place now.  Although with stun damage the way it is 10 points isn't much of a buffer.


edit to add - Or equal number of stun points in the negatives and you regain them at your endurance rate.  Below 0 you're out cold and if you use them all up, you're dead.  Rp being stunned under half if you're really into that.