Magick: how does my character deal with it?

[AmandaGreathouse]

I don't think I've ever ONCE played a character who hated magick. Nearly all of them fear it, but I've never had one hate it. I don't hate a butcher knife coming at my face. I fear it will kill me. Thank you, that is all.

[Zoltan]

I don't think I've ever ONCE played a character who hated magick. Nearly all of them fear it, but I've never had one hate it. I don't hate a butcher knife coming at my face. I fear it will kill me. Thank you, that is all.

Never attempted the tried-and-true self-loathing magicker, eh? Had myself some good times with that, even if I felt like I was unreasonably against the grain sometimes. But that's hate for you: rationality doesn't need to be a part of it.

Magick gains serious depth when it goes beyond utility. That said, I've certainly played magickers who have mostly looked at it as just another tool to use. Anything goes, really, but I heartily suggest giving magick hate a fair shake sometime.

[Nyr]

I don't think I've ever ONCE played a character who hated magick. Nearly all of them fear it, but I've never had one hate it. I don't hate a butcher knife coming at my face. I fear it will kill me. Thank you, that is all.

Magick is not a butcher knife.  Magick is an abomination that must be eradicated whenever possible.

Obviously your Tulukis aren't well-indoctrinated enough.  Step into this back room with me, I promise you'll see your family in the Warrens again.

[AmandaGreathouse]

I don't think I've ever ONCE played a character who hated magick. Nearly all of them fear it, but I've never had one hate it. I don't hate a butcher knife coming at my face. I fear it will kill me. Thank you, that is all.

Never attempted the tried-and-true self-loathing magicker, eh? Had myself some good times with that, even if I felt like I was unreasonably against the grain sometimes. But that's hate for you: rationality doesn't need to be a part of it.

Magick gains serious depth when it goes beyond utility. That said, I've certainly played magickers who have mostly looked at it as just another tool to use. Anything goes, really, but I heartily suggest giving magick hate a fair shake sometime.

I see too many other, more viable ways for magicker/mundane interaction to have conflict. Jealosy, nervousness, fear, prejudice, superstition, anxiety. Hatred's overdone. Sure hatred doesn't need to be rational...Maybe that's why all the aggro beasties are willing to sacrifice themselves rather than give up hunting you. I seriously don't see hatred though. I mean... hate the guy that can make water when you're dying of thirst? Or be jealous of him for never needing to be thirsty? Or be nervous that he might fill your lungs with water and kill you? Or assume that his water'll make you thirstier quicker than the Highlord's water? Or become anxious that they might wish you a good day and you'll wind up with so many kids you can't feed them all? (superstition docs, on the last one).

.... But just 'Oh... I hate magickers with no underlying reason'... no. Never have. Never will. People don't hate things without an underlying reason. Whether it be because they were raised to hate it, they had bad experience with it, they always wanted it but couldn't have it, they don't understand it, or what. I think focusing more on how they actually feel and why they feel that way's more interesting. Not to mention, I just generally don't enjoy playing hateful characters. Mean, sadistic, spiteful, manipulative, vengeful, sociopathic... yes. But not just downright hateful. Once again, it just doesn't interest me.

Obviously your Tulukis aren't well-indoctrinated enough.  Step into this back room with me, I promise you'll see your family in the Warrens again.

They are.  They're just more SCARED of the shit that has fucked so many things up than they are hating of it. I would think that 9 out of 10 commoners would be way too terrified to go toe to toe with a magicker for ignorance of what they could do, or perhaps knowledge of some of what they could do.

Of course... there's always the supposition that I'm not playing enough maxxxed-out dwarven warrior legionnaires with a focus of destroying all magick. 

[Nyr]

Jealousy towards magick?  While possible in a few roles here and there, this is what I would consider to be way outside of the norm.

Hatred can be a cause for every behavior your mentioned.

There are a slew of superstitions about magick--not a single one of them is considered a "positive" superstition.  Yes, hate the guy that can make water when you're dying of thirst, because it is tainted and they may very well kill you.  No, don't be jealous of his power.  He is an abomination.  You are a regular Joe Six-Mug, and you don't need no feckin' magick to stay alive, no sir--if you can't survive without using the services of a magicker, you deserve to die, must've just been your time to bite the dust.  Be nervous that he could fill your lungs with water, yeah--you can do that and hate magick at the same time.  Assume his water will make you thirstier quicker?  Yeah, you can assume that--and if worst comes to worst, maybe you'll drink it, but try to find some way to compensate for your weakness later on, evolving the hatred into self-hatred and loathing of your own weakness.  Believe that you might bear children quickly and easily because they wish you a good day?  Yeah, you can do that...and hate them all on top of it.

There's always some kind of "underlying reason" for hatred.  Hatred also has varying degrees, it is not just black or white.  Hatred can have a cause that also begets more hatred, turning it into an unending cycle.

Everyone in the world (barring some tribes and the oddballs out there) should have been raised to fear magick and consider it dangerous and something you do not want to go toe to toe with.

The majority of northerners probably have fear bordering on hatred because they are more associated with Tuluk and know the stories.  Tuluk didn't always abhor magick and execute magickers--they turned to that choice after 1450.  Now they are probably the most anti-magick group of people in the Known World, with subsets of them being even more anti-magick than that.  They have a good reason--an objectively good reason, in my opinion--for hating magick.  Some of them do have to go toe to toe with magick on a mundane level, and they do it--that doesn't mean they aren't afraid or that they don't hate magick all the while, it just means they have orders, faith in their success or their cause, or maybe they're doing their best not to think about the worst.

In Allanak, magick is feared, but in a different way--because there never has been a ban on magick.  Magickers may get executed, but they're "leashed," for lack of a better term.  I could see an uneasy relationship in Allanak between magicker and non-magicker, but even there, jealousy seems like an odd juxtaposition.  Hatred would take different forms there--overt and subtle prejudice, visible anxiety, fear.  You fear the things you hate, you hate the things you fear, etc.  Some few Allanaki folk would be in positions to utilize magickers as tools.  They may regard them as property and tools.  They may regard them as disposable tools.  They might treat their tools pretty well.  Without getting into nitty-gritty IC details, you can probably assume that the powers-that-be in Allanak have specific views on magick.  Maybe your PC hates the templarate or House Oash for using magickers in this way--but this doesn't necessarily mean that your PC didn't have the "nobles and templars are better that commoners" mantra pounded into their head right before the "magickers and magick is bad and meant to be feared" ideal.

Not every PC is the same.  I'm not saying every PC has to be the same in their attitude towards magick, magickers, etc.  Feel free to play magicker-loving people or characters that are jealous of magicker power, but note that this is not the norm for Zalanthas.  If any player has a habit of playing outside the norm on a regular basis, it likely will affect their chances in sponsored/tribal areas/higher karma because one can't really play too far outside of the restrictions of documentation there.

[Zoltan]

I don't think I've ever ONCE played a character who hated magick. Nearly all of them fear it, but I've never had one hate it. I don't hate a butcher knife coming at my face. I fear it will kill me. Thank you, that is all.

Never attempted the tried-and-true self-loathing magicker, eh? Had myself some good times with that, even if I felt like I was unreasonably against the grain sometimes. But that's hate for you: rationality doesn't need to be a part of it.

Magick gains serious depth when it goes beyond utility. That said, I've certainly played magickers who have mostly looked at it as just another tool to use. Anything goes, really, but I heartily suggest giving magick hate a fair shake sometime.

I see too many other, more viable ways for magicker/mundane interaction to have conflict. Jealosy, nervousness, fear, prejudice, superstition, anxiety. Hatred's overdone. Sure hatred doesn't need to be rational...Maybe that's why all the aggro beasties are willing to sacrifice themselves rather than give up hunting you. I seriously don't see hatred though. I mean... hate the guy that can make water when you're dying of thirst? Or be jealous of him for never needing to be thirsty? Or be nervous that he might fill your lungs with water and kill you? Or assume that his water'll make you thirstier quicker than the Highlord's water? Or become anxious that they might wish you a good day and you'll wind up with so many kids you can't feed them all? (superstition docs, on the last one).

.... But just 'Oh... I hate magickers with no underlying reason'... no. Never have. Never will. People don't hate things without an underlying reason. Whether it be because they were raised to hate it, they had bad experience with it, they always wanted it but couldn't have it, they don't understand it, or what. I think focusing more on how they actually feel and why they feel that way's more interesting. Not to mention, I just generally don't enjoy playing hateful characters. Mean, sadistic, spiteful, manipulative, vengeful, sociopathic... yes. But not just downright hateful. Once again, it just doesn't interest me.

Many of the things you mentioned are all seeds for hate.  Especially jealousy and superstition. Hate is -not- one-dimensional. Story time!

When I played my first mage, a Whiran, I was all self-conscious of not playing up to the docs as I had just received a chunk of karma. To kick things off "right," I made him middle-aged and wrote/thought up -extensive- background information for him that detailed how magick ruined his life. In reality, he probably owed more to his personal weaknesses for his fate, but the magick he had suppressed within himself for over two decades was always his scapegoat. He was forced to leave his relatively happy family in Menos due to manifesting in front of his brother. He soon fell to alcoholism and spice addiction, eventually leading him to a life of desperate prostitution. And all this time the presence of Whira, the vague words of power that drifted through his head during his waking nightmare, taunted him. He had a seething hatred for magick and, by extension, himself.

Years passed, and he managed to survive, spending more time in the desert hunting. He had mostly cleaned up, just as an act of basic survival. One day he had a bad accident and lost some fingers and his shitty hunting gear to it. Growing older and finally pushed against a wall, he faced what he was and marched into 'Nak and requested a gem (which is when I started playing him). His fear and hatred were still in full effect, even as he experimented with the words that had haunted him. Things were made all the better when he nearly died due to his experiments. 

Anyway, that gemmer's multifaceted hatred of magick and his many interactions with various manifestations of Whira combined to form one of the most satisfying play experiences I've had with any game. The true meat of just how awesome some of these moments and changes were will have to wait till after the game is closed unfortunately, if they can be told at all, due to some serious IC sekrits. Needless to say, playing with hate in its various forms made the RL year I had that character a ton of fun. He went from total fear/hatred/distrust to making begrudging utility of his magick, to a perceived Oedipus-tinged sexual relationship with Whira, to finally a fatalistic total acceptance of his true nature, powers, and role in the wider world. He was one bitter motherfucker and finally succumbed to a terminal illness after having his life prolonged for a while by, you guessed it, magick. Hate is an incredible springboard for drama, sometimes.

RAT: I need to be more cautious and have myself another long-liver. It's like a whole different game once you last a long time, even if you aren't "important."

[Akaramu]

I enjoy playing the 'norm' on attitude towards magick with most PCs. I also enjoy getting sponsored roles.  

Even my magickers sometimes hate other mages. Especially the ones that sleep with or otherwise strongly associate with normal people. Or they have delusions that they aren't 'really' cursed by the element (see my signature). Or they try to get rid of it.

[AmandaGreathouse]

Jealousy towards magick?  While possible in a few roles here and there, this is what I would consider to be way outside of the norm.

Hatred can be a cause for every behavior your mentioned.

Definitely outside the normal behavior. That's a given, I was simply listing it as a possible avenue of interesting conflict with magicker pcs.

As to the hatred, I see it more as an EFFECT of those things than the cause of them.

I've always more gotten this from the documentation for it:

General Magick

If you are a new player looking for information on roleplaying magick or reactions to magick, know that it is feared and loathed throughout the Known World, and few would admit to its terrible, shameful use

Magick from 'Help files, no frames'

Magick is a mysterious and very rare power on Zalanthas, about which the general public knows very little, and generally fears and hates a great deal. While magickers are tolerated in some places, they are generally feared and distrusted by the vast majority of the population of Zalanthas. In many places, magickers are killed upon discovery, and even the rumor that one is a magicker can lead to one's death.

I've always thought that, based on its uniform reference over hatred in the documentation that fear was every bit as much a logical and IC response as outright hating. I'm not likely to have a pc just outright hate it. They may well wind up hating it for specific reasons, or they may not, depending on how much they wind up doing with them, or they may just still fear them, mostly just depending on what happens and where. Fear? Yes. Distrust? Yes. I still don't see the hatred part, other than very specific and very ic examples that I've had with different pcs, but it's usually the result of a traumatic event or something similar, rather than just blind, random hatred.

[a strange shadow]

I think you guys are basically saying the same thing, just getting caught up in semantics of the word 'hatred'.

[Nyr]

I had a one liner about semantics but yeah, a strange shadow has hit the nail on the head.

Fear and hate are two steps on the path to the dark side, separated by anger and followed by suffering for those magicker bastards.

RAT:  The Emperor would have a lot less work to do in Zalanthas, a place where the dark side's tendencies run rampant.

[AmandaGreathouse]

I had a one liner about semantics but yeah, a strange shadow has hit the nail on the head.

Fear and hate are two steps on the path to the dark side, separated by anger and followed by suffering for those magicker bastards.

RAT:  The Emperor would have a lot less work to do in Zalanthas, a place where the dark side's tendencies run rampant.

Fair enough. My reply was actually a lot lengthier until I realized that it seemed like I was recanting my original point, which really I wasn't, I think I just view most hatred as pointless and tend to involve hateful feeling or intent through other venues.

Also: Yes.  I can imagine he'd be rather bored if he didn't have some other goals as well.

[Synthesis]

I don't like roleplaying hatred toward magickers because I really don't want to give something that powerful a reason to want to kill me.  It's already ridiculously easy to die without going to aquariums and picking fights with cheese-eating sharks with AK-47 mousetraps...or something.

I think this concern is valid both IC and OOC.

[Akaramu]

I don't like roleplaying hatred toward magickers because I really don't want to give something that powerful a reason to want to kill me.  It's already ridiculously easy to die without going to aquariums and picking fights with cheese-eating sharks with AK-47 mousetraps...or something.

I think this concern is valid both IC and OOC.

You can be hateful without letting them know about it. A character who both hates and fears magic would probably remain passive, not wanting to provoke the wrath of the filthy finger-wiggler, but still grit his teeth and mutter under his breath. And most importantly, not associate with / openly befriend the magickers, let alone sleep with them. Sometimes I really wonder why so many characters seem to have IC reasons for this.

[Jingo]

One thing I take issue with is the implied uniform hatred of all magickers.

If all magickers are abominations and need to be eradicated, then what is the point of sorcery? Are defilers just another ho-hum magician that happens to make ash? Since the maximum hate level is given to the average rukkian, you can't go that much further with the sorcerer.

It is common knowledge after all that the state of the world is the result of sorcerous defiling and less so because of rogue elementalists.

I think there needs to be a division in game-world response between one set of mages and another.

[Nyr]

Would you guys like it if I split this into its own topic for more discussion without derailing our wonderful random arm thoughts thread?

[BlackMagic0]

Would you guys like it if I split this into its own topic for more discussion without derailing our wonderful random arm thoughts thread?

Yes please.

[Nyr]

Making this thread as a placeholder for previous discussion (will be placed above shortly).  Discuss things like:

Regional perceptions of magick (careful here not to get too IC)
how to show your magicker hate...pride...
how to show your magicker tolerance -- for those out there that use magickers or have to interact with them on a regular basis.  Zalanthan tolerance isn't necessarily Real-World(tm) tolerance.

[Lizzie]

I've posted my thoughts in another thread, but I'll lay'em out here. I, the player, LOVE magicks in Armageddon. I like playing mages, I like interacting with them, I like being threatened by them, I like being pals with them. As long as I'm not shunning them and avoiding them, I'm good. I won't play someone who is *terrified* of mages, because that would require that I do everything possible to avoid interacting with them, including running away instead of risking some fun RP by sticking around. I won't play a total hater, because that would involve either going out of my way to avoid them, or making an effort to kill them, thus ending any RP.

So I prefer to make it a case-by-case situation. I might play someone who would possibly tolerate a vivaduan if she ever got stuck dealing with one. Or I might play someone who's afraid of the dark, and therefore would tolerate krathis while absolutely loathing drovians. Maybe I'm playing an elkran, who freaks out when she gets too close to vivaduans. Or maybe I'm playing a hunter who wants to -hire- a rukkian as a riding companion, because she heard they're good protection against the dunes.

Maybe I'll play someone who normally can't stand magickers but makes an exception to one who has shown themselves to be useful, cordial, undemanding, reasonable, intelligent, helpful, and more or less nice. Or maybe I'll play someone who is ripe for corruption and would be afraid of them - UNTIL they meet this one who turns them into a degenerate love slave to a evul defiler.

My Tuluki characters might have a morbid fascination with the elements in general - but have a respectful fear of people who can wield them. My Allanak characters would generally have been brought up and raised in the presence of gemmers and would have at -least- a begrudging tolerance for them - while at the same time having a very severe loathing and distrust against rogue mages. My tribals would probably get along swell with some, and not stand others. My desert elves would likely not want to be near any that aren't among their own tribe, but respect those within the tribe.

So really, it depends. But out and out hatred, or out and out intolerance, with no exceptions, won't be in my RP. I just love magicks too much.

[Old Kank]

I've been wondering about the OOC-IC impact of magicker-hate on the game, lately.

It seems like we're actively driving magickers and mundanes apart with all the hate and fear.  Based solely on my experiences of the last few months, I'd estimate that 75-85% of all magickers in the game avoid the mundane populations to the point of exclusivity.  Gemmers spend most of their time in the Quarter, and "rogue" magickers spend most of their time in places I can't talk about on the GDB.  It seems pretty natural that players are going to want their characters to go someplace they're wanted and welcomed, rather than ostracized, but I can only think of three clans that are open to magickers, and the only city that allows magickers is still pretty hostile to them.

To some degree this is fine - I wouldn't want to see a dozen gemmed PCs hanging in the Gaj - but I really get the impression that all the hate/fear has done is create two different societies within the game.  You have mundanes doing mundane things, getting involved in mundane plots and drama while magickers are doing magicker things and getting involved in magicker plots and drama, and the two don't seem to cross paths all that often. 

Is there a way to fear/hate on magickers without driving them away?

[Qzzrbl]

One thing I take issue with is the implied uniform hatred of all magickers.

If all magickers are abominations and need to be eradicated, then what is the point of sorcery? Are defilers just another ho-hum magician that happens to make ash? Since the maximum hate level is given to the average rukkian, you can't go that much further with the sorcerer.

It is common knowledge after all that the state of the world is the result of sorcerous defiling and less so because of rogue elementalists.

I think there needs to be a division in game-world response between one set of mages and another.

There pretty much -is- a division.

Elementalists:  Oh those bastards, I would kill them all if I had the chance to.

Ash-covered sorcerer: HOLYFUCKINGSHITKILLITKILLITKILLITKILLITKILLITKILLITKILLIT!!!! *runs away and never returns to that area ever again, chanting prayers to Tek, Muk, The Sandlord, and any other god-like being in hopes you weren't cursed by merely looking at it*

[Barzalene]

Is there a way to fear/hate on magickers without driving them away?

Experience would suggest not. It seems like when the pendulum swings the other way, the next thing you know Ruti's in the pit with no tongue and the magickers are hanging out at the bar in silks.

Sorry, it's past my bedtime, and I'm opting for the short answer. No tone should be inferred in the above. Hopefully tomorrow I'll come back and elaborate if it's needed.

[a strange shadow]

What OK said. I'd rather see conflict that encourages interaction rather than segregating the player base.

[Jingo]

One thing I take issue with is the implied uniform hatred of all magickers.

If all magickers are abominations and need to be eradicated, then what is the point of sorcery? Are defilers just another ho-hum magician that happens to make ash? Since the maximum hate level is given to the average rukkian, you can't go that much further with the sorcerer.

It is common knowledge after all that the state of the world is the result of sorcerous defiling and less so because of rogue elementalists.

I think there needs to be a division in game-world response between one set of mages and another.

There pretty much -is- a division.

Elementalists:  Oh those bastards, I would kill them all if I had the chance to.

Ash-covered sorcerer: HOLYFUCKINGSHITKILLITKILLITKILLITKILLITKILLITKILLITKILLIT!!!! *runs away and never returns to that area ever again, chanting prayers to Tek, Muk, The Sandlord, and any other god-like being in hopes you weren't cursed by merely looking at it*

Neither option is exclusive to one type of magicker. And both come down to the same tired denominator anyways.

[Nyr]

I'd say that in the case of a PC that really did have the opinion that all magickers are abominations and need to be eradicated, you would just prioritize your eradication list rather than hate one more than another.

You have a valid point.  If your PC really does hate all magickers equally, then the answer isn't to decide how much to hate each one, but in what order they need to be killed.

[brytta.leofa]

Remember that a desire to murder isn't the necessary outcome of hatred.  Big Jake, the 260-pound head of the local Klan chapter, may not find it a big stretch to try to kill a black person.  His wife, Peggy Lou (the frail, honey-blond woman), may hate black people just as much as he does, but she's far less likely to take matters into her own hands.

And neither of them is likely to take on, say, an experienced soldier, regardless of his skin color, unless they've got all their Klan buddies with them.


Ruti, AFAIK, wasn't a badly-played character.  (This was a 'nakki soldier who was executed after killing a gemmed mage, for you heathens who weren't there.)  He really, really hated 'gickers, which is a very reasonable interpretation of a southern commoner.  The "mistake," if there was one, was in not more carefully screening soldiers for extreme 'gicker issues.

(The player's mistake, I daresay, was in not grokking the tension between "I hate 'gickers" and "I will be killed more horribly than I can imagine if I make trouble.")