Magick: how does my character deal with it?

[janeshephard]

To be frank I'm more scared of dwarves than anything else out there. They're stubborn and if they have a focus involving causing violence to you they can't be reasoned with Anything else and you might have a chance at reasoning with it.

[Old Kank]

There -are- different societies. But they're not split strictly into magickers vs. mundanes.

You're talking about planned cultural and geographic divisions.  The rest of us are talking about a rift in the playerbase caused by an overreaction to and an overreaction of "fear and hate".

When you type 'who' and see 30 players on, there's a pretty decent chance that 10 of those players are in the Gaj, 10 are in the Sanctuary, and 10 are in Secret Magicker Hideout #57.  There's a reasonable overlap between the 20 Gaj-Sanctuary populations:  The three Kadian guards in the Sanctuary are friends with the two Salarri guards in the Gaj, the Bynners in the Gaj have worked with the nobles in the Sanctuary, and so on.  The 10 people in the magicker hideout, however, never interact with the other 20 Gaj-Sanctuary people, and vice versa.  This is a bad thing because it removes an entire dimension from the game (except for when a big HRPT comes along and everyone conveniently puts their differences aside for 12 hours).

There are dozens of reasons for magickers and mundanes to avoid each other, and very few reasons for them to interact.  For example, there should be huge tangible benefits to being gemmed in Allanak to balance out all the detriments; at the very least, being gemmed should open the door to being clanned by more than a single group.

[jriley]

When you type 'who' and see 30 players on, there's a pretty decent chance that 10 of those players are in the Gaj, 10 are in the Sanctuary, and 10 are in Secret Magicker Hideout #57.  There's a reasonable overlap between the 20 Gaj-Sanctuary populations:  The three Kadian guards in the Sanctuary are friends with the two Salarri guards in the Gaj, the Bynners in the Gaj have worked with the nobles in the Sanctuary, and so on.  The 10 people in the magicker hideout, however, never interact with the other 20 Gaj-Sanctuary people, and vice versa.  This is a bad thing because it removes an entire dimension from the game (except for when a big HRPT comes along and everyone conveniently puts their differences aside for 12 hours).

I agree with your statistics, but not your message.
I don't think that all characters need to be friends/associates of all characters.  Sometimes the most entertaining form of interaction is avoidance.

From a balance standpoint, one of the chief disadvantages of the standard commoner characters (as well as the desert-faring tribals) is that they are largely racist, ignorant, superstitious, financially ignorant, illiterate, insensitive, and poor planners.  It's a challenge to play somebody like this if you're a well-educated, wealthy, literate westerner but that's part of what makes this a challenging game.

edit: for clarity after i was done pretending to listen to girlfriend talk on phone

[Qzzrbl]

When you type 'who' and see 30 players on, there's a pretty decent chance that 10 of those players are in the Gaj, 10 are in the Sanctuary, and 10 are in Secret Magicker Hideout #57.  There's a reasonable overlap between the 20 Gaj-Sanctuary populations:  The three Kadian guards in the Sanctuary are friends with the two Salarri guards in the Gaj, the Bynners in the Gaj have worked with the nobles in the Sanctuary, and so on.  The 10 people in the magicker hideout, however, never interact with the other 20 Gaj-Sanctuary people, and vice versa.  This is a bad thing because it removes an entire dimension from the game (except for when a big HRPT comes along and everyone conveniently puts their differences aside for 12 hours).

I disagree.  I don't think that all characters need to be friends/associates of all characters.  Sometimes the most entertaining form of interaction is avoidance.

From a balance standpoint, one of the chief disadvantages of the standard commoner characters (as well as the desert-faring tribals) is that they are largely racist, ignorant, superstitious, financially ignorant, illiterate, insensitive,

Sparing "illiterate"-- alot of upper-crust society of Zalanthas falls into these disadvantages as well.

[Lizzie]

Old Kank, I'm saying that the only place you see this is in Allanak. And the only time you actually -know- that you're seeing it, is when it involves a gemmer. You have no idea if the guy you're drinking with at the Gaj is a magicker or not, unless he's wearing a gem. The division you're so concerned about, is a division between the Gemmed and Other People in Allanak.

Not every PC lives in Allanak, and not ever magicker is gemmed.

[janeshephard]

They see me castin'. They hatin'.

[Geryon]

And just like that, I had my next character concept.

[RogueGunslinger]

I'd love to see this game focus a lot more on PvE content. Magickers and mundanes banding together to save the Known. Unfortunately, this doesn't seem to be where the game is headed.

This pretty much happened, and results were universally bad if I remember. Armaddict made a pretty hilarious point about the game turning into WoW that no one seemed to get, if this were to happen, but that's not exactly what the past has shown us. Instead we had people slowly realizing how useless mundanes were in comparison to the Gemmed and Magickers, and as such many mundanes were being left out from certain things, and generally feeling like the ostracized ones, instead of the 'gickers, like it should be.

It was an annoying thing to be a part of.

[Spoon]

It works fine now, people still interact with magickers. People generally treat people who associate with magickers on friendly terms badly (which is good).

If you want to band together with magickers to save the know world, do it. You are not doing anything wrong, as long as the majority of players reacts appropriately.

I have in the past though been annoyed at people stand up and defend their magicker friend in a bar in Allanak. Of course you can be friendly towards magickers, but you still HAVE to pay attention to the docs, which state that the population in general hate and fear them. That is, your PC would probably be a little ashamed to say the least.

[spawnloser]

More likely your mundane magicker lover would be scared to admit it publicly.  Your mundane doesn't have the power of magick and superstition making all those other people scared of you like your magicker friend does.  A much smaller mob can take you out.

[Barzalene]

I think, what I have been dancing around and unable to say is this:
Magickers are very powerful. Instead of a coded balance to magick there is a social one. I think that works.

[Armaddict]

I think, what I have been dancing around and unable to say is this:
Magickers are very powerful. Instead of a coded balance to magick there is a social one. I think that works.

That's the argument I once presented, and everyone got pissed off about it.  But it's still true.

[Barzalene]

Maybe hearing you say it was how I figured out what I wanted to say.

Now people can be pissed at me too.

[a strange shadow]

Perhaps the solution is to spend more time making mundane skillsets flexible and powerful, causing situations where mages are not necessarily the most useful option. As it stands, magick can do nearly anything that mundanes can do, and better. This is not how it should be if we want an interacting (rather than a fragmented) gameworld.

Disclaimer: interaction doesn't have to mean buddy-buddy friendly stuff. I'd rather see conflict that brings players together (such as competition over resources, disagreements in politics, etc) rather than conflict that drives players apart (clan A shuns and avoids clan B at all costs).

[X-D]

As it stands, magick can do nearly anything that mundanes can do, and better.

I totally disagree with that.

Any single mundane is far more flexible then any elementalist with a greater number of useful and powerful skills in almost all cases. Elementalists are quite narrow in scope of abilities and often you need 2 or 3 different kinds to do something a single mundane can do. What mages do have over mundanes is a faster skill up ability.
While a 5 day mundane is pretty much a newb, the 5 day elementalist is already useful.

Unfortunatly a vast number of PCs never make it past 10 days or so of play so it will seem the mages are more powerful then they really are in comparison.

[janeshephard]

I agree with X-D. If you want magick versatility you're thinking sorcerer. Elementalists are, by their nature, limited to their element.

EDIT: no one shout foul, this is in the help files.

[a strange shadow]

Yeah, maybe I was thinking mainly of the sorcerer skillset. However (and avoiding specifics) there are certain things that certain classes of mages can do better than their mundane equivalent. I'd like to see that changed - perhaps mages are more viable in esoteric and rare situations, dealing with the <IC> parts of the world, but when it comes to mundane abilities and dealings, mundanes should be the way to go. As it is, the common perception (whether right or wrong) seems to be that mages are better at it all.

[spawnloser]

Magickers are more effective in certain things, sure.  In others, they're not.  The same goes for anyone, honestly.  That's how it works.  All sorts of things work as balancing weights, and they've all been mentioned.  I think there's not much else to say, honestly.

[a strange shadow]

Not really.

I'd like to less necessity for 'social' consequences. As it is now, they're the only thing that keeps it all balanced. Magick got a huge boost a few years ago, but mundanes didn't. Develop mundane skills and abilities to a reasonably equal level and there would be less need to fragment the playerbase.

That's the whole point.

Bring the playerbase together with conflict that promotes interaction, rather than fragmenting it with conflict that discourages interaction.

That said, I don't expect it to ever happen in Armageddon. Things are too set in stone.

[Barzalene]

Maybe. But I don't want my mundanes to be buffer. And I don't really want the attitude toward magickers to change.
I like things the way they are.

[a strange shadow]

That said, I don't expect it to ever happen in Armageddon. Things are too set in stone.

[Saellyn]

That said, I don't expect it to ever happen in Armageddon. Things are too set in stone.

Code Select Expand

A gemmed man says, in sirihish,
       "I don't like you."

hemote reaches into ~cloak, and wraps his hand around the blade of his dagger.

You say, in sirihish,
       "That's funny. Know why?"

A gemmed man says, in Sirihish, in a concerned tone,
       "No... why?"

backstab gemmed

You impale a gemmed man with a dagger in the throat!

A gemmed man falls over, dead.

You say, in Sirihish,
       "I hate your fuckin' guts."

Point in case:  Gemmers aren't be-all end all. There's still somebody that can kill them. It's just a matter of how bad you want to die vs how bad you want them to die. The stigma comes from -this- happening instead:

A gemmed man sees you before you succeed!

A gemmed man utters an incantation.

You're burninated!

You die!

(Beep)
So, socially? Yeah, Gemmed and magick in general is pretty feared. Going up against a magicker? Don't count on your skills beforehand. If you get stuck fighting a magicker? Definitely count on your ability to hopefully notdie, while understanding that you're gonna die. And piss yourself, and probably run into a hole crying if you -do- survive because you were THAT close to dying. You're not immune to magick; don't act like you are. Unless your character has something wrong in his head, you're probably -not- going to type "hit gemmer" in a bar. You're gonna shut the fuck up and sit down and stop bugging him. Because in the black of night, he'll turn you into a damn erdlu stew and -eat- you!

[Gobbleneck]

Mine usually depend on location, since location breeds culture, and culture breeds ways of thinking.

My rinthis?  Usually revere magickers and sacrifice newbies to their skull thrones.
My tulukis?  I don't give a shit, if I see a magicker in the wastes, I'm going to try and scrag him in the name of the Sun King.  It's a very rewarding experience.
My 'nakis?  Hatred mixed with grudging acceptance and fear.

Ultimately though, depends on the character.

And Saellyn raises a good point.
j/k 

[spawnloser]

I would maintain that your lone Tuluki trying to scrag every magicker he sees is being somewhat unrealistic.  That's like you trying to beat up with rocks and sticks every tank, semi or city bus you see.  You need a lot more of you with rocks and sticks to take that magicker out.

[Qzzrbl]

I would maintain that your lone Tuluki trying to scrag every magicker he sees is being somewhat unrealistic.  That's like you trying to beat up with rocks and sticks every tank, semi or city bus you see.  You need a lot more of you with rocks and sticks to take that magicker out.

Which I would imagine wouldn't matter to his PC, seeing as how he's doing it for glory and honor of the Sun King.

Quasi-religious fanaticism can do some amazing things.