Magick: how does my character deal with it?

[Spoon]

brytta has a really good point about discrimination. The whole way discrimination in practice works is that you outnumber and/or overpower the person you hate. Testimony from every elf-hater who got backstabbed, breed-hater who got trampled and sorcerer hater who got disintegrated. You want to put your PCs prejudice into action, you better hire some thugs!

[Cutthroat]

Assuming a city character, this is how I interpret the documentation and my experience in the game-world, and thus how I deal with magick.

In Allanak, there's a balance between total hatred and total acceptance. That balance is a fear and some hatred for what is possible (the unknown), and solemn respect for the fact that the templarate allows them to live in the city. That balance allows for interaction between the gemmed and the other groups of people. It isn't going to be pleasant interaction - in the average case, it's going to be uncomfortable for gemmed PCs involved, but probably even more for PCs. When 99% of the mundane Allanaki population fears at least some of Allanaki gemmed, you can't really get away with being the 1% that loves all of them without some shunning or at least an odd look your way. Basically, in Allanak, sanctioned elementalism is accepted. Rogue elementalists and sorcerers of any kind are not. I don't think your average Allanaki citizen would have enough hatred in their minds to consider killing what they probably see as a tool of the templarate.

Barzalene mentioned Ruti earlier. I played in the AoD during Ruti's demise, which I understood basically the same way brytta does. It basically involved an Allanaki soldier's growing hatred for how the PCs in the AoD and other people were interacting with magickers. It was an interesting line to watch a PC go down, but I'm not sure that's the average, either. The gemmed should be seen as having a use to someone. The more they show they are useful to you, naturally the more trusting you will be of them. My PC participated in the gith war and various other battles, occasionally receiving assistance from magicks, and was generally appreciative of survival. I think the average Allanaki will feel it's okay to enjoy, for example, healing magick, when they are nearly dead and need to be healed. But he naturally won't come to the conclusion that all magick is good just because he was healed.

Tuluk is obviously a different beast. The average Tuluki citizen is going to fear magick for its power, but probably also hate it because of what happened throughout Tuluk's history, specifically the Cataclysm. Though it may be fine in Allanak, I think to say that you don't hate a butcher knife, but rather fear its ability to kill you, is the wrong way to go about thinking of this concept when you think of Tulukis. The way I see it, Tulukis hate the nuclear missile as well as the people with the ability to launch them, and while the more capable people will try to learn more about them or even disarm these nuke-wielders, the rest live fearing the possibilities, but knowing they are protected now. You can go against the grain, but I don't think you should be surprised if your PC "disappears" after knowingly aiding and abetting, or receiving aid from, a magicker of any kind.

I strongly disagree that hatred leads directly to killing. There are more avenues for such other options and it's important to explore them. It is also important to come to the conclusion that the hatred stems primarily from fear of power (although you may find some other way to justify that hatred).

[Barzalene]

At the risk of appearing dogmatic and abrasive I wanted to give you  my thought proccess.
If we interact freely with magickers:
The roles bcomes less challenging
If the role is less challenging
If the role is less challenging and at a lower standard
If there are more magickers played at a lower standard magickers will be less interesting
If the game is flooded with unintereting magick the game will be broken.

In my opinion are players forced to choose between power and easy interaction? Yes , but I don't see the problem with that.

[Lizzie]

Considering the HUGE efforts at suppressing information in Tuluk and the lack of literacy, I'd have to offer a suggestion of possibility regarding commoners' perception of magicks in the north.

I don't think that what the docs state so emphatically, makes all that much sense in regards to actual enforcement. Tulukis, by far and large, are given spin to make them believe their lives are wonderful, that their city is safe, that the Sun King loves them and watches over them and would never allow any harm to them. Therefore - if magicks do cause cataclysms, commoners would have to come to one of two possible conclusions: Muk Utep lied, or it wasn't magicks. Neither possible conclusion is acceptable for a Tuluki.

[catchall]

I don't think that what the docs state so emphatically, makes all that much sense in regards to actual enforcement. Tulukis, by far and large, are given spin to make them believe their lives are wonderful, that their city is safe, that the Sun King loves them and watches over them and would never allow any harm to them. Therefore - if magicks do cause cataclysms, commoners would have to come to one of two possible conclusions: Muk Utep lied, or it wasn't magicks. Neither possible conclusion is acceptable for a Tuluki.

Remember though, that the public mind is rarely so adherent to strict principles of logic (and I'm not exactly sure the logic itself is sound).  Think of a parallel in the modern conception of terrorism in the American mind (speaking in party-neutral terms to avoid a derail).  Absence of terrorist attacks or a thwarted terrorist attack means that our leaders are keeping us safe.  A successful terrorist attack means we need to rally around our leaders so they can keep us safe!  And this is in a literate, information saturated culture.  The concept of terrorism, like magick, creates an enemy, an Other figure, and whether the enemy succeeds or fails in the short term, it is always favorable for government leaders in terms of public opinion.

In more practical terms, those (probably fairly uncommon) folks that are shrewd to the propaganda will understand that magick -does- pose a danger to Tuluk, and the Sun King's protective powers are not absolute.  However, they would probably avoid publicly professing this opinion in those terms.

[LoD]

I've been wondering about the OOC-IC impact of magicker-hate on the game, lately.

It seems like we're actively driving magickers and mundanes apart with all the hate and fear.  Based solely on my experiences of the last few months, I'd estimate that 75-85% of all magickers in the game avoid the mundane populations to the point of exclusivity.  Gemmers spend most of their time in the Quarter, and "rogue" magickers spend most of their time in places I can't talk about on the GDB.  It seems pretty natural that players are going to want their characters to go someplace they're wanted and welcomed, rather than ostracized, but I can only think of three clans that are open to magickers, and the only city that allows magickers is still pretty hostile to them.

To some degree this is fine - I wouldn't want to see a dozen gemmed PCs hanging in the Gaj - but I really get the impression that all the hate/fear has done is create two different societies within the game.  You have mundanes doing mundane things, getting involved in mundane plots and drama while magickers are doing magicker things and getting involved in magicker plots and drama, and the two don't seem to cross paths all that often. 

Is there a way to fear/hate on magickers without driving them away?

This has been my concern with magick in the game ever since the Cataclysm.  Beforehand, it seemed that there was this scaled tier of fear/hatred from mundane to elementalist to sorcerer.

Mundanes were, of course, treated in whatever way made sense for the character.

Elementalists were considered useful, but also dangerous, similar to the way that some people raise and interact with exotic pets that could easily kill them.  Working with them was potentially dangerous and they needed to be properly trained, watched, and monitored because they could cause some real trouble.  Occasionally, when one of them acted up, you needed to put them down.  However, there was a place for them in general society as something of a useful oddity.

Sorcerers were basically treated in the way the game handles most magickers now, which is feared, hated, and killed on sight.

I much preferred that model, because it kept about 98% of the playerbase interacting in the same space and allowed the choice of whether you trust or hate someone up to the player instead of up to the documentation.  Only the worst of the worst reserved the unequivocal kill on sight, fight or flight, blight upon the world response that seems to be pushed as the standard today.  It was the result of an IC event and, thus, probably won't ever be changed unless at the hands of another IC event.

Unfortunately, that IC event will probably have to be the world ending and Arm 2 beginning.

-LoD

[janeshephard]

I'd love to see this game focus a lot more on PvE content. Magickers and mundanes banding together to save the Known. Unfortunately, this doesn't seem to be where the game is headed.

[racurtne]

I'd love to see this game focus a lot more on PvE content. Magickers and mundanes banding together to save the Known. Unfortunately, this doesn't seem to be where the game is headed.

Wat? 

[AmandaGreathouse]

I'd love to see this game focus a lot more on PvE content. Magickers and mundanes banding together to save the Known. Unfortunately, this doesn't seem to be where the game is headed.

Same. Or, rather, I'd rather the focus be more targetted, at least in Allanak where people are likely to have a higher exposure to that sort of thing. (ie: An angry mob outside the krathi temple? Hello? As it is, it's damn near at the mouth of the water temple, wtf?) I dunno. I'd rather see racism and such be brought into it more as well. I can see a lot of reason why people in Allanak (in Allanak) would be more than friendly to vivs. I would think the general populace would largely have a view of them as happy bunny healers who make the rarest and most necessary commodity in the Known in unlimited supplies and for free. I dunno, it seems backward and illogical. Yes, there ARE scary things that all magickers can do, but I would think that fear of going against the Highlord and his declaration of them being allowed to live there and essentially his tools, would stay a lot of hands. If not all, at the very least, most.

[Barzalene]

I'm voting the other way. I think that it would ruin the flavor of the game. I like that magickers are hated. I think they should be. That's the culture. Maybe it's just a reluctance to see change, but this is the game I've been playing for eight years, the one where there is racial hatred, where magickers are hated, where if you think somone's been mean to you, you're probably right. I feel like the game isn't broken and that this "fix" would break it. It would change the way Zalanthas feels. Arm.2 is going to do that. The time we have left with this world, as is, is already too finite without this sort of change.

[jriley]

I don't think I've ever ONCE played a character who hated magick. Nearly all of them fear it, but I've never had one hate it. I don't hate a butcher knife coming at my face. I fear it will kill me. Thank you, that is all.

Actually, I think that the docs are pretty clear on this one.  Commoners fear/hate magic.  Not sure why you're not playing this way.

[Armaddict]

Only response I can come up with to that is that we'd need an extensive Looking For Group system so I could insure I had enough healers and not just a bunch of warmages.  And to make obelisks and the like that act as summoning stones.  And to please put big bad beasties near those that the entire group would need to take down once per reboot with epic loot.

[janeshephard]

Only response I can come up with to that is that we'd need an extensive Looking For Group system so I could insure I had enough healers and not just a bunch of warmages.  And to make obelisks and the like that act as summoning stones.  And to please put big bad beasties near those that the entire group would need to take down once per reboot with epic loot.

I was thinking more along the lines of big arcing plots with RPTs where players get together and their fate changes the world.

For what it's worth epic lootz and LFG is in the game. Some clans go out and do things and come back with stuff.

[Xeran Van Houten]

I was thinking more along the lines of big arcing plots with RPTs where players get together and their fate changes the world.

Pretty sure we already have those too.

[Geryon]

I'd love to see this game focus a lot more on PvE content. Magickers and mundanes banding together to save the Known. Unfortunately, this doesn't seem to be where the game is headed.

I believe this happened a few years ago.



(Disclaimer: frowny face is not official staff opinion. It is official Geryon opinion.)

[Nyr]

I was thinking more along the lines of big arcing plots with RPTs where players get together and their fate changes the world.

This does happen/has happened, yes.

[AmandaGreathouse]

I don't think I've ever ONCE played a character who hated magick. Nearly all of them fear it, but I've never had one hate it. I don't hate a butcher knife coming at my face. I fear it will kill me. Thank you, that is all.

Actually, I think that the docs are pretty clear on this one.  Commoners fear/hate magic.  Not sure why you're not playing this way.

They DO fear it. They just don't hate it (MY commoner pcs do not, to clarify). Not unless it's made a negative personal impact on their lives or unless they've had specifically negative (ie actively antagonistic) encounters with specific magickers.

Dictionary.com says:

hate
   /heɪt/ Show Spelled [heyt] Show IPA verb, hat·ed, hat·ing, noun
–verb (used with object)
1.
to dislike intensely or passionately; feel extreme aversion for or extreme hostility toward; detest: to hate the enemy; to hate bigotry.
2.
to be unwilling; dislike: I hate to do it.
–verb (used without object)
3.
to feel intense dislike, or extreme aversion or hostility.
–noun
4.
intense dislike; extreme aversion or hostility.
5.
the object of extreme aversion or hostility.

fear    (fîr)  
n.

  1.

        1.

           A feeling of agitation and anxiety caused by the presence or imminence of danger.
        2.

           A state or condition marked by this feeling: living in fear.
  2.

     A feeling of disquiet or apprehension: a fear of looking foolish.
  3.

     Extreme reverence or awe, as toward a supreme power.
  4.

     A reason for dread or apprehension: Being alone is my greatest fear.

Yes, they do in fact fear it. But they do not have hostility toward it, as the multiple different meanings of hatred allude to. They are apprehensive, reverent, and anxious toward it, but I can't see for the life of me why ANYONE would be openly hostile toward someone who could melt you where you stand. That seems to be in complete opposition to the supposed self-preservation instincts they would have, also according to documentation.

[Armaddict]

This is what is known as arguing semantics.  And really, with all the discussion that has been pointed to, over and over...the concept of 'hate and fear' is pretty clear, and has been made pretty clear, very very many times.

[Barzalene]

I don't think I've ever ONCE played a character who hated magick. Nearly all of them fear it, but I've never had one hate it. I don't hate a butcher knife coming at my face. I fear it will kill me. Thank you, that is all.

Actually, I think that the docs are pretty clear on this one.  Commoners fear/hate magic.  Not sure why you're not playing this way.

They DO fear it. They just don't hate it (MY commoner pcs do not, to clarify). Not unless it's made a negative personal impact on their lives or unless they've had specifically negative (ie actively antagonistic) encounters with specific magickers.



Yes, they do in fact fear it. But they do not have hostility toward it, as the multiple different meanings of hatred allude to. They are apprehensive, reverent, and anxious toward it, but I can't see for the life of me why ANYONE would be openly hostile toward someone who could melt you where you stand. That seems to be in complete opposition to the supposed self-preservation instincts they would have, also according to documentation.

If that's is how you're choosing to play your characters, and you're happy then I don't see any reason to try to argue you out of it. But if you're trying to encourage the rest of the playerbase to play that way, then I think that's a problem. They docs state that most people hate and fear (no I'm not quoting) magick. That's the plan. Let's not encourage people to deviate from the plan.

[Synthesis]

There's really nothing in the docs that will serve as an unquestionable basis for how every PC reacts to magick.

To those who think otherwise, I humbly submit that you are overstating your case.

I think this entire thread is an exercise in attempting to mold popular opinion one way or another, based on predilections more than documentation.

It's easy to hold extreme positions on internet forums, though...it makes you sound so tough and resolute!

[Qzzrbl]

There's really nothing in the docs that will serve as an unquestionable basis for how every PC reacts to magick.

To those who think otherwise, I humbly submit that you are overstating your case.

Staff have stated time and time again that magickers are abominations and should be hated and feared....

[Synthesis]

There's really nothing in the docs that will serve as an unquestionable basis for how every PC reacts to magick.

To those who think otherwise, I humbly submit that you are overstating your case.

Staff have stated time and time again that magickers are abominations and should be hated and feared....

By the vast majority of the population.  That doesn't stop anyone from writing up a PC that legitimately doesn't hate or fear at least a subset of magickers.

It's the old "PC exceptionalism" vs. "General documentation" argument.  The docs describe the world that our characters live in, not our characters themselves.  Is there interplay?  Sure.  Should you completely ignore them? Of course not.  Is there considerable leeway? Yes.

[charas]

I enjoy both the harassing Bynner trying to rally the whole Gaj against my filthy wiggler and the guy who gets bug-eyed, starts mumbling excuses and trips over his own feet trying to leave the bar in a hurry. I'm also glad there are folks who seek to use you like a tool and those who seem curious and behave rather nicely towards you. I try to return that spectrum with my mundane characters.

[janeshephard]

There's really nothing in the docs that will serve as an unquestionable basis for how every PC reacts to magick.

To those who think otherwise, I humbly submit that you are overstating your case.

Staff have stated time and time again that magickers are abominations and should be hated and feared....

People aren't disagreeing with you. They're saying this is causing two societies to exist. The magickers and the mundanes and some folks would like it if it was less like this.

[Lizzie]

There -are- different societies. But they're not split strictly into magickers vs. mundanes. You'll only see that in Allanak. In Tuluk, there's mundanes, and no one else, because no one else is ALLOWED there, period. Then, it becomes a split between the couth and the uncouth. The artist and the no-talent nobodies. The licensed and the unlicensed.

In Luir's Outpost, it's Kurac and everyone else.

In the desert, it's the desert elves and everyone else.

In the desert, if you're a desert elf but ALSO a magicker, you have a much higher chance of living amongst the desert elves, than a city mage.

So really, it all depends. There aren't merely "mundanes and magicker." There's a HUGE HUGE variety of "other." Some of which are mundane. Some of which are magicker. If all you are ever seeing is mundane vs. magicker, I recommend you try playing something that doesn't rely on going to, or living in, either city.