Thief Guild - Burglar/Pick Pocket Combined!

[BlackMagic0]

So simple as the thread says. Should these two be combined to make one 'thief' class?

One would combine the art of breaking in and stealing into one guild.

This would give 'thief' characters a wide-range of things they could do instead of say the one thing, that each class is good at either way.

Just thought would be good discussion to throw up on a slow morning.


Adding: Please for the love of christ do not simply poll vote, explain and discuss!

[jhunter]

I vote yes. I see no need for the two guilds to exist separately. As it stands, one can already play a burglar as a pickpocket and have more options to fall back on. The only real difference is a burglar cannot become as good at picking pockets in the long run. I say put them together into one "thief" guild and then if people want to play a thief pc, they can use one guild and play it either way, or a combination of both. Which is plenty realistic.

[BlackMagic0]

I see 5 yes, and no comments. 

[hyzhenhok]

Yes. In fact, I suggested several times in the past that they be merged.

I think the combined class could be easily balanced with assassins/rangers given the right combination of starting/branched skills. My specific thoughts are that the class should at least start with a semi-competent steal and peek (just as rangers start semi-competent a few skills), and make pick a branched skill.

Pickpockets should be more common. Breaking-and-entering thieves should be rarer. I think this would accomplish that.

[a strange shadow]

What Hyzenhok said, plus the following: possible to stealthily open doors, a successful pick doesn't break hide, and if you are not successfully hidden while picking a lock and in a crime-flagged area, you are wanted.

[BlackMagic0]

What Hyzenhok said, plus the following: possible to stealthily open doors, a successful pick doesn't break hide, and if you are not successfully hidden while picking a lock and in a crime-flagged area, you are wanted.

Yes. Yes.

A way to stealthily open doors.
A successful pick does not break hide.
And wanted spot.


Those are awesome.

[Sinna]

Obviously. 

[Synthesis]

I voted no.

This would be the ultimate griefing guild.  Not only that, a burglar/pickpocket combination would basically be a soloist who never needed help from anyone, for anything mundane.  If you combined the two guilds, the resulting guild would have every non-crafting city-type skill in the game, and would be quite dangerous in combat, to boot.

[hyzhenhok]

I voted no.

This would be the ultimate griefing guild.  Not only that, a burglar/pickpocket combination would basically be a soloist who never needed help from anyone, for anything mundane.  If you combined the two guilds, the resulting guild would have every non-crafting city-type skill in the game, and would be quite dangerous in combat, to boot.

Obviously a straight up merge wouldn't be so hot. I would recommend taking out a lot of the skills that pickpockets/burglars have that overlap with assassins. They would probably not get backstab and sap. They would probably not get every single perception skill. But the resulting class would be robust enough not to need those things.

As it is now, they are unnecessarily overspecialized, and frankly I think that's only so there's a class that is balanced to start with pick, which IMO we can afford to get rid of.

[Synthesis]

But there isn't any glaring problem with either burglars or pickpockets, other than the fact that people obviously don't know how to play them successfully.

I get the feeling that this thread is like people crying that warriors aren't good enough because they keep dying to gith.

[BlackMagic0]

But there isn't any glaring problem with either burglars or pickpockets, other than the fact that people obviously don't know how to play them successfully.
I get the feeling that this thread is like people crying that warriors aren't good enough because they keep dying to gith.

I've played both successfully. So rather not have a thread I made be labeled as such.

Simply a discussion here, no need for that.

[hyzhenhok]

But there isn't any glaring problem with either burglars or pickpockets, other than the fact that people obviously don't know how to play them successfully.

I get the feeling that this thread is like people crying that warriors aren't good enough because they keep dying to gith.

No, there's not a glaring problem.

It just doesn't much sense to have two dedicated stealth classes just so you can have a single class dedicated to the pick skill, and another one dedicated to steal.

It would be comparable if we split the warrior class into "gladiator" and "mercenary;" giving one [one subset of starting warrior skills] and the other [another], shuffling the warrior skill sets up between them, letting them branch limitedly into one another and into other guilds (the experienced gladiator...follows the path of the assassin? While the mercenary follows the ranger?). It would probably be workable, but simply having a "warrior" class is better.

[Saellyn]

Or the fact that no pickpocket or burglar should ever become as skillful as the warrior in combat, because that's just how the world works.  I don't believe they should be mixed. Pickpockets are pickpockets, not dudes who break into houses and steal from homes. They make their money off the objects and the cash that people accidentally or intentionally leave in their inventories or in open containers. They're quite capable of survival without a whole bunch of other stuff to assist them, and giving them 'better' combat skills is just asking for them to be balanced with other people. Nobody is supposed to be balanced with somebody else. Pickpockets have it hard, so they need to work with what they're given.

Making pickpockets easier to play just kind of ruins the point. They're -supposed- to be hard to play, it's -supposed- to be a miserable guild, that's why the benefits of playing a good pickpocket can be so rewarding. Not that I would know.

[jhunter]

But there isn't any glaring problem with either burglars or pickpockets, other than the fact that people obviously don't know how to play them successfully.

I get the feeling that this thread is like people crying that warriors aren't good enough because they keep dying to gith.

No, there's not a glaring problem.

It just doesn't much sense to have two dedicated stealth classes just so you can have a single class dedicated to the pick skill, and another one dedicated to steal.

It would be comparable if we split the warrior class into "gladiator" and "mercenary;" giving one starting bash and dual wield and the other shield use, parry and ride, shuffling the warrior skill sets up between them, letting them branch limitedly into one another and into other guilds (the experienced gladiator...follows the path of the assassin? While the mercenary follows the ranger?). It would probably be workable, but simply having a "warrior" class is better.

Agreed to everything he said.

[Myrdryn]

I voted no because burglar already has all this.  Burglars are pretty much the rangers of crime (in civilized areas anyway).

[Sinna]

Btw - I voted "yes" 'cause I think all mundane classes should be merged anyway.   

[jstorrie]

I'd rather just see pickpockets get fixed.

[Twilight]

I voted no.  Wait for rogue or whatever they are going to do in Arm 2.

More mundane options, not less.

[jmordetsky]

I voted no because burglar already has all this.  Burglars are pretty much the rangers of crime (in civilized areas anyway).

Yar. I loved my burglar(s).

My inverse question though (which would determine if I said yes) is who the hell actually plays pickpocket and why? I've never played one, burglar seems like a way better choice.

[Majikal]

I'd rather just see pickpockets get fixed.

[jhunter]

I voted no because burglar already has all this.  Burglars are pretty much the rangers of crime (in civilized areas anyway).

Yar. I loved my burglar(s). All of them were pretty good and nicking as well.

My inverse question though (which would determine if I said yes) is who the hell actually plays pickpocket and why? I've never played one, burglar seems like a way better choice.

That's kind of my point to the original suggestion. I'm just saying make burgs capable of maxxing steal and dump the pickpocket guild altogether. Then, you just choose (what would then be the "thief" guild, and use it either way.

[Kryos]

I edited out a too-snippy reply.  In short, no, I'm totally against this, and burglars already carry the potential for a lot of abuse if done (in)correctly.  Considering what I've seen in game, there are some good, believable burglars and there are some that need to be sat down and explained why 100 pound beds aren't something you can just 'sneak' past a array of watching people.

[mansa]

I vote yes.

You could have a specialized, either pick or steal.

I think the rogues need more love.

Same with warriors.  More combat skills. More more more.

[jhunter]

 In short, no, I'm totally against this, and burglars already carry any class carries the potential for a lot of abuse if done (in)correctly.

Fixed. This is no reason not to condense the two and get rid of the extraneous classes.

[Qzzrbl]

After a little thought, I change my vote to "maybe".

When compared to burglars, or any other class for that matter, pickpockets have always seemed.... A little broken, to me at least.

I'm not sure combining pickpockets and burglars would be the best option though.

An idea I would be able to back 100% would be to pretty much give pickpockets the same skills as a burglar-- but just change the skill caps and how they branch.

Add in their helpfile something like, "Master pickpockets begin to learn the path of the burglar" or something like that.

From what I've seen, the burglar guild is essentially [IC info redacted].

What harm could come from Pickpockety Burglar Lite?