Thief Guild - Burglar/Pick Pocket Combined!

[Delstro]

I always enjoy playing pickpockets, but they are basically useless by other PCs. Except in the rare occasions.

[jmordetsky]

I edited out a too-snippy reply.  In short, no, I'm totally against this, and burglars already carry the potential for a lot of abuse if done (in)correctly.  Considering what I've seen in game, there are some good, believable burglars and there are some that need to be sat down and explained why 100 pound beds aren't something you can just 'sneak' past a array of watching people.

That isn't so much a problem with the guild though as it is a problem with the fact that there is not way to get wanted when burglaring. I still think (people may hate this) that [IC info redacted].

[jcarter]

Edit to add something on topic:

Burglar is a great guild with a lot of utility. It doesn't seem like it's lacking in any particular way, and it's one of those guilds that's extremely flexible and can be chosen for a variety of PC careers: noble's aide, thief, burglar, grebber, merchant (not as a crafter), and so on and so forth. Pickpocket doesn't really have that kind of versatility, and as someone else said, their use is very situational. I'd like to see the two merged, just to have such a narrowed class removed yet still remain an option. Rounding out the class seems like it would just make it start treading on other guild's toes and cause it to be an even more redundant option.

I edited out a too-snippy reply.  In short, no, I'm totally against this, and burglars already carry the potential for a lot of abuse if done (in)correctly.  Considering what I've seen in game, there are some good, believable burglars and there are some that need to be sat down and explained why 100 pound beds aren't something you can just 'sneak' past a array of watching people.

People constantly point to burglars stealing beds and couches and so forth, but I've personally never actually seen, nor heard of, any incidents of it happening in game. Considering the weight vs value level of the damn thing, it's more trouble putting yourself out there and compromising your identity than it is to  take the bed and find a place to sell it, while having to stop and rest several times along the way. This, to me, has always come across as one of those arguments thrown out there with 'well you can forage salt for 48 RL hours straight and have a PC with 6k in the bank in no time'. It's possible, but very rarely happens as much as GDB likes to think it does.

That isn't so much a problem with the guild though as it is a problem with the fact that there is not way to get wanted when burglaring. I still think (people may hate this) that part of a failed pick should be a wanted flag for small percentage of fails.

I like it, but at the same time, it makes things even harder for a new burglar and then just becomes a minor annoyance.

Starting out with a new burglar is already difficult. Getting a pick is very dependent on the pbase, and the rate at which picks can break can add up a LOT of money. Compound that with the fact that you might break into places that are either unoccupied, or just have things like a couch and bed inside. Once your skill starts to hit the higher end, you'll almost never, ever fail, making the 'wanted' flag something that would really just effect new burglars, or  at worst annoy experienced ones for a small time while they use other skills to dodge arrest.

[IAmJacksOpinion]

As it is, I personally don't see much of any reason to choose a pickpocket, but I don't think combining the two guilds is the answer.

You could have a specialized, either pick or steal.

I can't see anyone doing this. (I wouldn't!) I think people will be just as motivated to grind up both as they are about grinding up any skill in the arsenal of any class. Unless you had something coded in mind, which seems more complicated than anything I've seen the staff implement into Char Gen. (I mean, we still can't start Gemmed for cryin' out loud!)

As it is, I kind of enjoy the way Assassin / Burg / Pickpocket [work]. That being said, I'm leaning more toward Pickpockets needing a little lovin'. I'm thinking [certain skills] are some good ones for consideration.  (Not all of them, of course, but a couple. And before anyone says that some of those are a little far fetched, I think burgs have some pretty far-fetched skillz as well....)

Also, perhaps burgs could lose [skill], which seems like an essential skill for pocket picking. That would make them less of a wash, and more specialized.

In short, making one master stealz0r class gets a big fat no, in Jack's opinion. But specialization is the shiznit.

[mansa]

Like...

choose to have PICK max out at 100, and STEAL max out at 60 -or- have PICK max out at 60, and STEAL max out at 100

*shrug*

Or have you search out a master and have them "teach" you, in order to pick one or the other to be the "best"

[jstorrie]

Haha, it'd be great if for every guild, you had to seek out a 'master' to teach you a 'specialization' in order to unlock high caps on iconic skills. NPCs and PCs could both do it!

the windswept, dune-tattooed man will teach you wilderness quit for 1000 obsidian coins and 18 gortok hides.

[Greve]

.

[Dan]

I think if the ability to quietly open someone elses pack were introduced they wouldn't be quite as 'weak'. High levels of sleight of hand?

Edit to add:

Also- the ability to close it again as well.

open man's backpack

You deftly loosen the big man's backpack and open it.

steal coins man's backpack

You managed to steal 100 coins.

close man's backpack

You deftly tighten the big man's backpack and close it.

Or something like this.

[Oleupata]

I went through and edited a lot of replies, all of which were hinting heavily at or directly stating IC info that is not in the documentation.

Please do not discuss mechanics on the GDB. This includes skill trees and how 'steal' works.

[IAmJacksOpinion]

I think Greve hit the nail on the head as far as the problems with the playability of the pickpocket class.

That being said, an ability to open / close, or more simply bypass closed packs would be nice.

Also, I've seen the term 'cutpurse' being used heavily here, and I have always thought that it would be neat to have the ability to cut and nab those small pouches everyone's fond of hanging off their necks, wrists, and ankles. ((The term cutpurse itself refers to a thief running around with a knife, cutting coin purses loose from people's necks. Now them's some fast, steady hands.))

However, the stealing potential of a skilled pickpocket is already staggering, and no amount of added ability in that specific area will ever negate the problems Greve outlined. My answers still remains, a somewhat more useful skill tree.

[Rotten]

I think the main problem this thread addresses is the uselessness of the pickpocket guild outside of its specialization.  So why not give them either special subguilds that have higher skill caps than normal ones or the ability to take two subguilds?

[AmandaGreathouse]

I think the main problem this thread addresses is the uselessness of the pickpocket guild outside of its specialization.  So why not give them either special subguilds that have higher skill caps than normal ones or the ability to take two subguilds?

Ooh... pickpocket with 2 subguilds? That sounds sweet.

( I admit I've only ever played 1 sneaky guild, and it was an assassin... but that alone would be enough lure for me to play a pickpocket.)

[titansfan]

Eh, I like a challenge just as much as anybody, but the pick pocket guild is so stressful to most people or just frustrating that not many try it. I rather see it melded with burglar and pick be branched and see some new guild be put in place if someone still wants another guild there, I'm sure someone could come up with something interesting and realistic.

[IAmJacksOpinion]

and see some new guild be put in place if someone still wants another guild there,

Please don't do that in this thread though. There are already several threads out there speculating on new possible guilds. I think there was even a recent one.

[original]

I put no. I am 30 now but was young once. Because of the 5th, I won't say why. A pickpocket and a burglar really are two different people. One is pretty much a mugger, and bully, they may sneak around, but for the most part they'll fight you and take your stuff. Those people really exist, breaking into a house? Check Beating on people? Check Stalking around and Casing out? Check Passively stealing from passer-bys? FAIL! Nope, not the same person.
Think of Burgs as breaking and entering thugs.
Pickpockets really have almost no business fighting anyone, at all. They are the physically weak in a confrontation, but able to con and take all day right in front of you without ever causing a confrontation.

These are not the same guild, the only pay off would be having sneaking gypsy pickpockets that can fight better, I'm fine without that as there are already classes to choose from if you want better fighting.

We combining warriors and merchants next so the merchants aren't as weak? That is all I see here. PP's are weak and it looks like an attempt to make them better. Keep them weak, keep them small time thieves, because at the end of the day some of us might want to play that (as my friend is right now) and we need that class around.

[original]

Haha, it'd be great if for every guild, you had to seek out a 'master' to teach you a 'specialization' in order to unlock high caps on iconic skills. NPCs and PCs could both do it!

the windswept, dune-tattooed man will teach you wilderness quit for 1000 obsidian coins and 18 gortok hides.

That would be cool, but there are 238,742,398 other muds doing that already and it does get old and restrictive super fast.

[original]

I think the main problem this thread addresses is the uselessness of the pickpocket guild outside of its specialization.  So why not give them either special subguilds that have higher skill caps than normal ones or the ability to take two subguilds?

I Should have done this in one post.

I would like to see PPs start off with a little more. I just introduced a friend to mudding on the other side of the arm world from my character so he can shoot me questions without our stories colliding. I've seen his skill list and it is pretty hard for a PP to start also I am reading they don't get a whole lot. Maybe starting with hide, or branching one or two other non-combat, stealthy skills (pick [really weak], scan [for guards or hidden marks, those are the best]) I am not sure about their flee skill, but I am hoping it is one of the highest in the game, if not, it should be or just give them a higher defense cap since they focus so hard on getting away, let them.

I just see the guilds as two really different forms of play and we are discussing taking out an entire form of play right to make it more battle ready, at most it just needs a tweek to be more flitting and cowardly, let's think this long and through before jumping at the pretty combat carrot.

[jhunter]

I keep hearing people talking about fighting ability, I've never chosen either class to be a "combat" character at all. If that's really the concern with combining them, then give them the lower combat capability of the two. I'd be perfectly happy with that, my burgs or pickpockets avoiding fighting at all costs anyway. I pretty much play a burglar as an "all-purpose" thief, picking pockets or stealing in other ways. I see no reason for the two to exist separately. As someone else said, we don't have warriors divided into different "specialty" combat classes, why does it need to be that way with burglars and pickpockets? I don't feel that it needs to be. It isn't going to destroy the game if the two were combined.

[Qzzrbl]

Yeah.... Burgs or pickpockets are pretty poor choices if you wanna go the combat route.

[original]

So your basically asking for a higher cap on steal and no more pickpocket class?

[Qzzrbl]

I could live with taking out backstab also.

[Synthesis]

I could live with taking out backstab also.

Be careful what you wish for.  I'll bet backstab is crucial in limiting the number of burglars in the long run, because most of them die trying it out. 

If you start removing combat skills from the thiefly classes, then they'd be less tempted to participate in combat, and they'd probably start living longer.

[jstorrie]

Yeah, in my opinion both burglars and pickpockets have some 'useless' skills–useless because the caps are so low. I suppose the reader will have to figure out in-game; my condolences on their imminent deaths.

[Incognito]

Both these classes have overlapping skillsets - with different caps.

There's really no justification to warrant the existence of two different guilds, based solely on 2 of the main skills (at different levels).

Over and above this, it gets monotonous to play a PP after a while - why not combine the two, and allow for more roleplay and skill variety?

If you think about it - you could actually follow the logic of having Burglars and Pickpockets and extend it to Rangers as well - and divide them into 2 classes - Trackers (rangers who excel at tracking skills) and Gatherers (rangers who excel at foraging and skinning skills). But all this does is - it takes one solid class, and breaks it down into two weaker versions of it.

I definitely think there's some real potential to merging PP and Burglar classes to make one solid Thief class.

[Reiloth]

a) Burglar - Cutpurse = Cap Steal at Master, Cap Pick at Journeyman
b) Burglar - Housebreaker = Cap Steal at Journeyman, Cap Pick at Master

Make a failed pick break hide and flag as Wanted for the same amount of time as a failed steal.

Presto!