Thief Guild - Burglar/Pick Pocket Combined!

[janeshephard]

Pickpocket is a dull guild in general. I always thought it was too limited. Merging Burglar with Pickpocket makes a lot of sense.

To balance it out make them less skillful at combat. This could very well be a class that excels at being undetected and move undetected in all sorts of places.

[Sephiroto]

Not having access to helpfiles at the time I can't say with any certainty whether or not the pickpocket and burglar guilds have value or haggle skills, but I think they should.  Also, the ability to pick any 2-3 crafting skills with 1 being master and the other 1 or 1 being capped at the skill level just below that would make those guild much more versitile and offer players more to do than steal loot (or fail to do so).  Sticking to the traditional fantasy setting, I find it believable that a burglar/pickpocket should be able to pass themselves off as a merchant if they really put their mind to it.

[racurtne]

Not having access to helpfiles at the time I can't say with any certainty whether or not the pickpocket and burglar guilds have value or haggle skills, but I think they should.  Also, the ability to pick any 2-3 crafting skills with 1 being master and the other 1 or 1 being capped at the skill level just below that would make those guild much more versitile and offer players more to do than steal loot (or fail to do so).  Sticking to the traditional fantasy setting, I find it believable that a burglar/pickpocket should be able to pass themselves off as a merchant if they really put their mind to it.

They could pick a decent subguild like general crafter then, couldn't they?

[Sephiroto]

Well, they could, but it would do more to address said "dullnesses" of the pickpocket guild if they could truly master another skill or craft.  At least then they'd have a better chance of truly excelling at honest work while keeping their shady business to the side, instead of vice-versa.

[FantasyWriter]

At least then they'd have a better chance of truly excelling at honest work while keeping their shady business to the side, instead of vice-versa.

Merchant/thief.

[Sephiroto]

How does playing a merchant guild help expand burglar/pickpocket?  It doesn't.  I meant to suggest that staff add skills to the main thiefy guilds to give folks the tools (skills) to be more diverse.

I suppose the end of my discussion is this: I really don't expect any of this to come to be until 2.Arm, when we're more able to specialize or diversify our skills, but its nice to dream about something new.

[BlackMagic0]

I suppose the end of my discussion is this: I really don't expect any of this to come to be until 2.Arm, when we're more able to specialize or diversify our skills, but its nice to dream about something new.

To bad Arm Reborn is a myth. And never coming around.

[FantasyWriter]

How does playing a merchant guild help expand burglar/pickpocket?  

I wasn't saying that it did.  You're suggestion offered a chance for a sneaky person to have their MAIN job be honest, and be a sneaky on the side.  Merchant/thief offers you that option.  Sure, you won't be as good as a burglar or thief at being sneaky, but like you said, that was your "side" job.


Also, you always have the option of special apping a half/half guild character.

[Qzzrbl]

We've got a fighter class. - Warrior.
We've got an indoor sneaky fighter class - Assassin
We've got a sneaky outdoor outdoor fighter class - Ranger
We've got a crafting class - Merchant

And we've got a tossup between pickpocket and burglar for sneaky thief class-- burglar pretty much wins out for versatility.

Real question is-- what can a pickpocket do that a burglar can't? Spare a pretty useless combat skill (sap) and a higher skill cap for steal (which burglars can get pretty damn good at anyway)?

If anything, I say it'd be interesting to swap the skill tree between burglar and pickpocket entirely, but leaving their respective thiefy skills (pick, steal, and peek) at their current setting.

It would certainly end alot of bitching and moaning about there being too many burglars robbing apartments blind....

Pickpockets would be more useful-- and experienced burglars that somehow manage to survive would still have plenty of room for employment.

[Synthesis]

Pickpockets are much better fighters than burglars, once they're fully branched.

And if you think sap is useless, you're sadly mistaken.

Pickpockets are fine.  It seems like the vast majority of complaints are coming from people who haven't ever had much luck playing one.

[Qzzrbl]

Pickpockets are much better fighters than burglars, once they're fully branched.

And if you think sap is useless, you're sadly mistaken.

Pickpockets are fine.  It seems like the vast majority of complaints are coming from people who haven't ever had much luck playing one.

To clarify, I didn't mean sap itself was useless.

It just seems pretty useless for pickpockets.

[Synthesis]

Pickpockets are much better fighters than burglars, once they're fully branched.

And if you think sap is useless, you're sadly mistaken.

Pickpockets are fine.  It seems like the vast majority of complaints are coming from people who haven't ever had much luck playing one.

To clarify, I didn't mean sap itself was useless.

It just seems pretty useless for pickpockets.

You don't need the bludgeoning weapons skill once you've knocked someone out.

[jstorrie]

Good luck knocking someone out with pickpocket sap. I hope your target is a low-endurance elf...

[Synthesis]

Good luck knocking someone out with pickpocket sap. I hope your target is a low-endurance elf...

I've done it and seen it done.  I don't know what your problem's been.

[FantasyWriter]

I don't know what your problem's been.

Perhaps the logic of: There's a good chance I might NOT knock the person out, so I better damn well know how to use this [sap/club/whatever] if I don't.

[Synthesis]

Like I said:  pickpockets get very decent at combat, once they're fully branched.

If all you want to do is sap people to 0 stun, perhaps you should play an assassin instead.

After all, pickpockets are primarily concerned with...the picking of pockets.

Also:  if you can't figure out ways to maximize your chances of getting a successful knockout, you aren't thinking very hard.

[The Archbishop]

Pickpockets have their own niche, much like a warrior is a single minded class they fight.
Pickpockets steal, that's what they do and they can be rediculously good at it.
They get a number of skills that intermesh between all the city based sneaky types, but you just gotta know your role.
It's not to say a pickpocket can never learn to fight, but if your playing a pickpocket to concentrate more
on combat than stealing you're probably not gonna be very successful. Pickpockets can ruin your day plenty fine.

[Armaddict]

Like I said:  pickpockets get very decent at combat, once they're fully branched.

If all you want to do is sap people to 0 stun, perhaps you should play an assassin instead.

After all, pickpockets are primarily concerned with...the picking of pockets.

Also:  if you can't figure out ways to maximize your chances of getting a successful knockout, you aren't thinking very hard.

Pretty much what Synthesis said.  I'm kind of at a loss for why there are complaints about this class.  They don't -start- perfect, but end up rounding out quite nicely.

[Sokotra]

I understand and sort of like the general idea of a "Rogue" guild or something like that... but I would just hate to lose an option for a starting class.  Maybe pickpockets and burglars need some more beginner-sih skills for those that don't reach the upper levels of skill-branching.  I'm all for more variety.  Heck, if anything I think I'd rather ADD a "Rogue" class - I'm not sure what that would be, but just saying.  Maybe it could be a swashbuckler type... jack of all trades, master of none.  That's probably what burglar is, though... *shrug*  I haven't played them enough to know.

[HavokBlue]

Like I said:  pickpockets get very decent at combat, once they're fully branched.

If all you want to do is sap people to 0 stun, perhaps you should play an assassin instead.

After all, pickpockets are primarily concerned with...the picking of pockets.

Also:  if you can't figure out ways to maximize your chances of getting a successful knockout, you aren't thinking very hard.

Pretty much what Synthesis said.  I'm kind of at a loss for why there are complaints about this class.  They don't -start- perfect, but end up rounding out quite nicely.

Most people playing pick pockets will not live long enough to round them out.

[Marshmellow]

Most people playing characters in Armageddon will not live long enough to round them out.

ftfy

[hyzhenhok]

Most people playing characters in Armageddon will not live long enough to round them out.

ftfy

It's fair to say that some classes are easier to survive with until they start to get powerful, and also fair to say some classes a stronger out of the gate than others. If we look at a the short stretch, it's easy to see why some classes are considered underpowered and others are overpowered.

I no longer support the idea of a combined thief class, though.

[Mr.B]

I voted no, both Burglar and Pickpocket have their different niches. A Burglar will not be the undisputed master of your essential gear. A Pickpocket won't be the bastard who robs your templar figurine collection, assorted non-essential supplies and favorite coatstand.

Both of those abilities are very powerful when taken to extreme levels and I believe the classes shouldn't be merged. Burglar is the city-ranger. Pickpocket is the city-stealth-warrior.

[Bebop]

I'm sorry... I usually don't post anymore but I had to respond.

One of my most favorite characters in five-ish years or so was Reiko - my thief.  Some of you may (or likely may not since she never left the city) remember her as the petulant, young, confused, knocked up thirteen year old that stole your shit and carried around a beat up ass doll.

If you can't rustle up some drama with a pickpocket or turn a coin - yer doin it wrong.

Could pickpockets use a little oomf?  I suppose.   Should they be merged with burglars?  No way.  Should some of the skills they branch like a specific combat ability be tweaked along with their other combat abilities?  Maybe.  But pickpockets have awesome potential at role play and turning profit.  I suggest anyone wanting to play a pickpocket highly consider their subguild at character creation.  Pickpockets are 100 percent a different guild.

If you're looking to pwn newbs and have l33t hackzors combat or eventually strut around like a badass solely based on your skill set, look elsewhere.  Thieves are a challenge because they require cunning, common sense and each of their actions must be seriously considered as there are serious repercussions to their actions and you need to start out knowing you are likely never going to walk into the arena and shiv muls successfully.  Let that seep, come to terms with it - then play a pickpocket.

Some of my FAVORITE characters were pickpockets, and not meaning characters that were mine either.  Itches the elf that stole my key from my apartment and charged me to get it back and did card tricks.  Lina to Moony, Cale to Bo - scenes with that kid brought tears to my eyes IRL, I ain't gonna lie.  If you want to play a commoner that ISN'T a stoic badass, if you want to turn some coin, if you want the chance to play a supporting role to the hilt pickpockets are awesome, awesome, awesome.  They have amazing potential as characters, they're very versatile and I love them and never want to see them as mini-assassins and shit.  Are they kinda weak?  Yeah - but it means you have to play that much harder to execute them successfully and improvise RP with code.

EDIT:  PS: Saying Burglars and Pickpockets are the same is like saying Warrior and Assassins are the same guild because they both fight.  Or Assassins and Burglars are the same and so on and on.  Pickpockets are hard to play intentionally.  Do you all really want pickpockets to be -easy- to play so they can run around spam stealing - yeh, no.  If anything I think steal should be taken away from burglars - at least starting out. [/end pickpocket luv]

[jhunter]

My whole point is that there isn't any reason for them to be separated. As is, if I want to pick pockets, I use the burglar class anyway because then I have other things I can do to round out the character. I still say, give the burglar skillset pickpocket level steal, pick, and peek, call it the rogue guild and ditch pickpocket altogether as a class of it's own. Then if someone wants to play a picking pockets type of thief, they choose rogue, if they want to play an actual burglar, they choose rogue, if they want to be a master of all thievery, they choose rogue. Same class, played many different ways and I see no need for them to be separated.
Or, combine the two into the rogue class but, make pickpocket and burglar subguilds that change around the caps of certain skills when combined with rogue if one so chooses.