C-elf rangers?

[Cavaticus]

There are plenty of times in this game where we have the code conform to racial traits and norms. This is one of them.

Your city elf does not have the aptitude to be a ranger. Your city elf does not WANT to be a ranger. Your city elf will never be comfortable or happy in the wastelands.

If you desperately want to play a self-hating city elf who spends every waking moment cursing the day he chose to leave the comfortable, mark-rich, easy living of the city to join his backwater redneck desert elf kinfolk, there are subguilds that can make that more tolerable from a play perspective (especially since the direction sense addition to many of them). But you will never even APPROACH ranger level because of your ingrained culture, attitudes, and breeding.

[Nyr]

I believe this and the city elf vs desert elf thing has been brought up more than a few times over the past five years in various threads.  I don't foresee us changing position on this.  City elves (now) actually have a much better chance of attaining the skills that a desert elf ranger might have (storm code changes + direction sense), but they will not become full-fledged rangers.

Another way of looking at this is that when you pick a city elf, you are picking an entire culture of elf that is raised in urban environments.  Per documentation and established tradition, the differences between city elves and desert elves are only the result of their different lifestyles--there is only one elven race.  These differences are reinforced by the code.  They mean that desert-elves will not ever develop the skills to sneak and hide inside an urban environment.  They will not ever become assassins that skulk about in cities, because desert elves culturally do not enjoy venturing into the nasty pits of the cities and any desert elf that did enjoy this would be breaking documentation and cultural guidelines--and they'd be stored.  (As desert elf staff, I'd never sign off on a special application going against the documentation in this way, myself.)

Conversely, city elves (by documentation) are scattered across the settled places of Zalanthas, and usually possess lighter skin tones and less musculature (but not necessarily less strength) than their desert elf kin.  They may be codedly prevented from becoming a ranger, but this coded prevention is based on the rule, not exceptions to the rule (which special applications can be used for, though I do not guarantee your success at this).  If we made all things possible in the game without any automatic coded restrictions or oversight on new applications, we could go ahead and scrap all of the documentation.  (This is hyperbolic; I only write it to make a point.)  If you have a strong case for a city elf ranger, I would suggest a special application, keeping in mind that we usually will hold to the rule rather than creating exceptions to the rule.  (You'd better have a good app, in other words.  If you do get rejected, it isn't because you suck as a player and need to quit Armageddon.  The standards are very high for playing a role so far out of the world's cultural norm.)

This is an example of a race in the game that has limits on it based on documentation reinforcement.  There are other limitations as well.  Psionicists can only be human.  Mul magick users are rare to the point of being unheard of (therefore codedly rejected, and require special applications now).  Were any player to complain that their city elves could not be psionicists, we would point to the documentation on psionicists.  Were any player to complain that they could not make a mul magicker even though they had 7 karma, we would point to the documentation on muls (and suggest they special app, which would be reviewed to high standards as well).  We also have limits that are not coded, but still enforced both culturally and through regular policing in-game.  I could go on about this, but I do not think it relates to city elves and desert elves and their coded limitations (brought about to enforce cultural documentation).

For those of you that zone out when you see more than 2 paragraphs of writing, a brief summary:
tl,dr -- nyr hates city elves and linked liek 2 million threads on it
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,19828.0.html (old)
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,31564.0.html (newer)
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,37028.0.html (far more possible with direction sense, now)

[mansa]

I believe this and the city elf vs desert elf thing has been brought up more than a few times over the past five years in various threads.  I don't foresee us changing position on this.  City elves (now) actually have a much better chance of attaining the skills that a desert elf ranger might have (storm code changes + direction sense), but they will not become full-fledged rangers.

Another way of looking at this is that when you pick a city elf, you are picking an entire culture of elf that is raised in urban environments.  Per documentation and established tradition, the differences between city elves and desert elves are only the result of their different lifestyles--there is only one elven race.  These differences are reinforced by the code.  They mean that desert-elves will not ever develop the skills to sneak and hide inside an urban environment.  They will not ever become assassins that skulk about in cities, because desert elves culturally do not enjoy venturing into the nasty pits of the cities and any desert elf that did enjoy this would be breaking documentation and cultural guidelines--and they'd be stored.  (As desert elf staff, I'd never sign off on a special application going against the documentation in this way, myself.)

Conversely, city elves (by documentation) are scattered across the settled places of Zalanthas, and usually possess lighter skin tones and less musculature (but not necessarily less strength) than their desert elf kin.  They may be codedly prevented from becoming a ranger, but this coded prevention is based on the rule, not exceptions to the rule (which special applications can be used for, though I do not guarantee your success at this).  If we made all things possible in the game without any automatic coded restrictions or oversight on new applications, we could go ahead and scrap all of the documentation.  (This is hyperbolic; I only write it to make a point.)  If you have a strong case for a city elf ranger, I would suggest a special application, keeping in mind that we usually will hold to the rule rather than creating exceptions to the rule.  (You'd better have a good app, in other words.  If you do get rejected, it isn't because you suck as a player and need to quit Armageddon.  The standards are very high for playing a role so far out of the world's cultural norm.)

This is an example of a race in the game that has limits on it based on documentation reinforcement.  There are other limitations as well.  Psionicists can only be human.  Mul magick users are rare to the point of being unheard of (therefore codedly rejected, and require special applications now).  Were any player to complain that their city elves could not be psionicists, we would point to the documentation on psionicists.  Were any player to complain that they could not make a mul magicker even though they had 7 karma, we would point to the documentation on muls (and suggest they special app, which would be reviewed to high standards as well).  We also have limits that are not coded, but still enforced both culturally and through regular policing in-game.  I could go on about this, but I do not think it relates to city elves and desert elves and their coded limitations (brought about to enforce cultural documentation).

For those of you that zone out when you see more than 2 paragraphs of writing, a brief summary:
tl,dr -- nyr hates city elves and linked liek 2 million threads on it AND NYR HATES MUL MAGICKERS TOO
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,19828.0.html (old)
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,31564.0.html (newer)
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,37028.0.html (far more possible with direction sense, now)

fixed, in bold

[Sephiroto]

Is that race/guild option still available though?  If so, shouldn't it be removed?

[Nyr]

It is not available.

[Delstro]

Using the arguement that humans and dwarves can do it, doesn't apply to elves.

Relating to RL on this one, for elves:
Recently, I read a study that showed that when high-level engineers marry another high-level engineer, they have a high ratio of giving birth to mentally handicapped children.

When you take a C-elf mother, only good at picking pockets, and a C-elf father, only good at picking pockets, chances are you will get a child only good at picking pockets.

Humans don't live in that kind of culture. Humans live in a culture where their parents could be good at anything. A noble can be good at picking pockets because, as children, they could go around picking the pockets of the lesser commoners and -noone- above that commoner would care. Humans can be good at anything.


Elves were pigeon-holed.

[jmordetsky]

Edit to add: Of course, this opens the ability to allow d-elves to play the city sneak classes, which they would suck at due to their own IC restrictions, but should still be able to attempt.

I voted yes, but I hesitate now that i think about the awesome power that would be D-Elf assassin. I think C-Elf ranger is of limited threat, but D-Elf assassin would be omg, run.

[Thunkkin]

Since we start as beginners (novice in almost every skill with some variations due to, uh, things) I don't think there should be any assumption that a character has EVER done ANY skill on their skill list unless they decide their character's history accordingly.

In this hypothetical situation, a noble starting with the pick pocket skill MAY have pick edpockets as a child.  But they're a novice.  So maybe they've never picked a pocket in their life.

[Cutthroat]

Edit to add: Of course, this opens the ability to allow d-elves to play the city sneak classes, which they would suck at due to their own IC restrictions, but should still be able to attempt.

I voted yes, but I hesitate now that i think about the awesome power that would be D-Elf assassin. I think C-Elf ranger is of limited threat, but D-Elf assassin would be omg, run.

I don't like the idea of them actually being good at it either, just as a c-elf wouldn't ever be as good at rangering as their desert counterpart. It's an interesting thought to allow one and the other on a limited basis, but I understand the staff's line of reasoning on the issue. Elf has been a pretty restrictive race anyway.

[Synthesis]

Besides which, there is a HUGE "outdoor" type of zone that has nothing to do with a desert, where city-elves might find themselves, where ranger-like skills would be quite useful.

[Qzzrbl]

There are plenty of times in this game where we have the code conform to racial traits and norms. This is one of them.

Your city elf does not have the aptitude to be a ranger. Your city elf does not WANT to be a ranger. Your city elf will never be comfortable or happy in the wastelands.

If you desperately want to play a self-hating city elf who spends every waking moment cursing the day he chose to leave the comfortable, mark-rich, easy living of the city to join his backwater redneck desert elf kinfolk, there are subguilds that can make that more tolerable from a play perspective (especially since the direction sense addition to many of them). But you will never even APPROACH ranger level because of your ingrained culture, attitudes, and breeding.

Honestly.... What in the world ever happened to "play the character, not guild"?

I really wouldn't have imagined c-elf rangers leaving the city any more than c-elf assassin/hunter. I never wanted to see city-elves run out and try to be wannabe D-elves, and I doubt I ever would, because even with the ranger guild-- they'd never really be able to in the first place.

I just still don't see how a city-elf would be somehow banned from learning the same skills a ranger does. Perhaps the only reason it isn't allowed is because "ranger" is so associated with hunters who go out in the deserts and hunt stuff-- but the ranger skillset in and of itself is equally capable of supporting someone from the confines of the city. Besides, c-elves would still pretty much be confined to the city because they're not allowed to use mounts. It's not like they'll be leaving the cities by the masses-- they simply can't walk that far! They wouldn't be able to run away if some big beastie came chasing them. They'd just get killed-- and it would be pointless to try and have a c-elf try to go far out into the wastes hunt. That's why assassin/hunters and warrior/hunters don't do this already!

It would likely change absolutely nothing about how city-elves are played.

[Nyr]

Honestly.... What in the world ever happened to "play the character, not guild"?

If this is an axiom by which to play, then it still has merit.  There is a corollary to this maxim:  "play to the rule rather than to the exception."  We back this up with code.  If you want to break out of the bonds of established documentation and tradition for what a city elf role is deemed to be, please submit a special application.

[Qzzrbl]

Aaaand the Staff have spoken.

Thanks for swooping down from Staffland to discuss.

[jmordetsky]

Honestly.... What in the world ever happened to "play the character, not guild"?

If this is an axiom by which to play, then it still has merit.  There is a corollary to this maxim:  "play to the rule rather than to the exception."  We back this up with code.  If you want to break out of the bonds of established documentation and tradition for what a city elf role is deemed to be, please submit a special application.

The "why's" behind your argument seem a bit weak to me. I lump this into the "city elves don't ride" argument. It's a little part of the Zalanthan bible that really when put to the test of hundreds of years of objective thought and observation would have been dumped - at least in part by some of the elven population. Other then the fact that it's in the documentation - you don't really provide a reason why city elves are this way. I think most of the people on this thread want to suspend their disbelief, which - meh - hasn't happened.

I've played elves in the byn and seriously struggled to justify why I won't ride or go outdoors and while you can pull it off, it always feels contrived, even childish. Saying: "I hate bugs. I hate sand." in a prideful manner gets old.

Coming up with some simple facts would go a long way: City elves have lost the ability to run. City elves have lower constitutions, endurance etdc and as a result the sun and wind can kill them off very fast in the desert.  I have nothing for why they won't ride but, dear god, the pride argument is so old and tired. It really all comes down to play balancing from 1952 where someone decided that city elves were too powerful if there weren't racial penalties people would just play elves and half-elves like humans.

It could be reassessed or at least rewritten so that the cultural mores were plausibly believable (or even well understood).

[Jingo]

Off topic, but I want to point out that byn and other leaders are much more willing to take the occasional skinny for a mission when they used to.

It used to be the that the elf in the byn had to beg the sarge to come along. Which makes city elves much more tenable in my view. I still wish that elves could become employees of Kadius and Salarr though.

[Nyr]

If you were looking for a longer explanation, I wrote one farther back in this thread.

After reading the rest of your edited post, I think your issue is that you don't like the documentation for elves.  Oh well.*

*edit:  by which I mean "that's different and I don't have anything prepared with which to respond as I am a relative newcomer to Zalanthas in comparison to anyone that may have written that documentation" not "tough shit"

[jmordetsky]

If you were looking for a longer explanation, I wrote one farther back in this thread.

After reading the rest of your edited post, I think your issue is that you don't like the documentation for elves.  Oh well.*

I think the point of the thread is not liking *aspects* of the documentation for elves, questioning and discussing those aspects and if they are realistic. 

As such saying "it's this way because of the docs" is a bit of a moot point. *

*No footnote required.

[jmordetsky]

I still wish that elves could become employees of Kadius and Salarr though.

I disagree there - I wouldn't want to lose the social stigma associated with race. As for having a magickal aversion to sand - meh.

[Cutthroat]

I think that any clan with NPC elves in the game should also accept PC elves, although individual PC leaders' opinions on which races they would prefer to deal with may differ.

[Jingo]

I still wish that elves could become employees of Kadius and Salarr though.

I disagree there - I wouldn't want to lose the social stigma associated with race. As for having a magickal aversion to sand - meh.

I think that the merchant houses would be more interested in making a buck before caring about social circumstance. Just shove the skinny beneath the table before Lord Froth comes over to visit and social taboos won't even matter.

[mansa]

I think that any clan with NPC elves in the game should also accept PC elves, although individual PC leaders' opinions on which races they would prefer to deal with may differ.

Kadius used to have a Senior Agent who was an elf.

He lived in the Cottage.

[X-D]

They are realistic. They are Elves, not humans, they don't think like humans or any other race for that matter. Who knows, it could be hard wired even.

[RogueGunslinger]

All I'm saying is if you're going to stick a byn elf with no ride at least let him quit when he wants to.


Edit: I just disagree where this is taking the game. I disagree with staff on this, and find their reasoning to go against the spirit of a roleplaying game.

[Ashes]

These differences are reinforced by the code.  They mean that desert-elves will not ever develop the skills to sneak and hide inside an urban environment.  They will not ever become assassins that skulk about in cities, because desert elves culturally do not enjoy venturing into the nasty pits of the cities and any desert elf that did enjoy this would be breaking documentation and cultural guidelines--and they'd be stored.  (As desert elf staff, I'd never sign off on a special application going against the documentation in this way, myself.)

I've read tribal documentation that has particular castes residing in cities, Nyr.  I'm not really making an argument, I just wanted to point it out to shed some counter-light on this statement that you made for anyone that might read that.  Note that none of those castes would allow a change in the current code that's available to everyone.  D-elves still couldn't burgle.

[Qzzrbl]

Since people insist on posting in the thread that says [ignore this one] RIGHT IN THE TITLE! 

I'm not going to argue about cultural differences between city-elves and desert-elves, because I don't think any of that has anything to do with a ranger's skillset.

Guild Ranger     (Character)

A ranger possesses two primary abilities: to aptly find their way even in storm or darkness, and to stalk and kill prey (for food). Because of the emphasis on these two things, rangers are often greatly sought after as companions in the desert.

Storms aren't unique to the desert, and neither is darkness.  Stalking and killing prey isn't unique to the desert, either.

Ranger skills involve hunting persons or animals, exceptional powers of observation, a strong aptitude for archery, and some moderate skill with weapons. Exceptional rangers are able to move silently and remain unseen in the wilderness, detect sounds from far away, work with poisons, and parry enemy blows. Rangers are also often able to rescue friends from deadly situations, bandage serious wounds, and have a well-known rapport with animals, and can ride beasts of burden from the beginning.

The only thing in this paragraph that a city-elf couldn't do in the city is ride, since wilderness sneak and hide (supposedly, at least) also work to a certain extent in the city.  Furthermore, since a city-elf wouldn't be exceptionally good at running, it seems like they might have a little extra incentive to be stealthy when outside the city.

While apparently an astonishing array of abilities, rangers are far poorer at combat than warriors, and their skills with poisons and healing powers are actually quite modest.

Rangers are usually the second easiest persons to employ, next to warriors. Any traveller would be a fool to neglect to take a ranger along as a guide, and good rangers can make large sums of money in this profession. In addition, rangers are excellent scouts and spies, able to eavesdrop without being noticed. If nothing else, rangers are superior hunters and can typically feed themselves in such places as the Grey Forest (q.v.), and can bring back skins of animals to sell.

See also:
    forage, Grey_Forest, guilds, skin

Here is one possible solution:  allow city-elves to pick the ranger guild, but change the hunt, sneak, hide, scan, and listen skills to their city-based versions.  Let everything else remain the same, and all of a sudden you have a useful guild that makes sense.  Basically, they would be assassins minus backstab (although the thug subguild would perhaps be an appropriate choice) with better archery, instead (which can be just as devastating, really).

Looking at the ranger skill tree, the only two skills that a city-elf wouldn't ever have a reason to use inside the city are charge and trample, for obvious reasons.  I think that is a strong enough case for letting them pick ranger, regardless of whatever the "ranger" guild is supposed to entail from a roleplay perspective.  Not all assassins assassinate, not all burglars burgle, not all pickpockets pick pockets, not all warriors go to war, and not all rangers range.