C-elf rangers?

[Twilight]

I think the thinking around city elves at the time was that city elves live in the city, desert elves in the desert, so the city elf would not have the opportunity to pick up what is required to be a ranger.

I would be fine with that...if nobles likewise were not allowed to pick ranger as a guild.

Personally, my longest lived rinthi character (which didn't really live that long) was a ranger, and I found the guild -quite- useful for that environment at the time.

[Delstro]

Humans are not as xenophobic as elves are.

Humans could have been a productive ranger as a young lad, but then ran onto rough times and ended up in the Rinth.
City elves grew up in the city and grew up either crafting for their tribe, or bringing in coin and material via theft, conning, or taking advantage of humans. In a lawless place known as the Rinth, I believe that death wouldn't be as common as PCs demonstrate. If this were real life, there would be a great many shows of force and a lot less violent. Much like how I've seen two Iraqi men stand on opposite sides of the street and yell at each other everything they could think of, from killing and raping their entire family, to stoning them to death, and then walk away without a single act of violence.

A tribeless city elf probably grew up fast doing whatever they could to get by. They, most likely, attached themselves to any trusting human or half-elf group they could because, again, humans are less xenophobic than any other humanoid available and breeds just want to be loved (Over simplification, I know.). Half elves would bond really well to a tribeless elf because that would make the breed feel like they were needed and wanted.

A tribeless desert elf would die quickly. What ever resource they used, would be considered theft. Every theft of resources could end up killing a member of an actual tribe. Any theft by a loner would be met with life and death situations where the tribeless must make up for the loss.

The main reason C-elves should be allowed the use of the guild ranger is because, they could learn most of the skills involved with the ranger. A PC desert elf tribe has a game where the young try and mount a beast for the joy of taming it. Are they riding it? Yes, but not to get around. Would a city elf use a mount to carry the bulk of their items? Yes, but I don't ever see it. If you were running, could you carry the reigns of more than one beast easier than if you were riding on a beast three times as tall as the ones you are pulling? Yes.

The main reason a desert elf should get assassin is because backstab isn't some mythical skill where you magick yourself behind someone and then stab them in the back. Et tu Brute and shit. Hiding and sneaking in the desert should be a lot more limited than it is now. We should make it impossible for a desert elf to hide, sneak, and then backstab. This is so because in most places of the known, you are surrounded by a lot of open, sparsely spaced vegitation. You would be given the chance to hear someone running up to you from the nearest bush. You would rarely never hear them before they planted a spike between your shoulder blades.

In short, C-elves should only get city hide and sneak. Desert elves should only get wilderness hide and sneak.

[Qzzrbl]

Have you ever seen a ranger IG (besides D-elves) that have never used a mount in the entirety of their character's lives?

I've had 4 so far. 1 HG 2 dwarves and a breed. the dwarves lived past 30 days and 6 months and so did the HG, I hated the breed (but not because of stats).

The other three were quite brutal and had certain advantages that come from not using a mount.



As for the rest of your post, it is moot, the arguments are based on things that are either untrue or ignoring other things that MORE then balance out the drawbacks.

Again, I'm probably ignorant to something glaringly obvious as to why city-elf rangers would be so horrible, but after much searching, I simply can't figure it out.

You are, but GDB rules prohibit anybody from stating them.

Mmm.... I'd disagree with that the arguments are untrue, with maybe the exception where I said many rangers couldn't survive out in the wasted without a mount.

And those other things I seem to have ignored-- I just don't know about 'em. :<

But, like I said earlier, the Staff doesn't seem privvy on giving C-elves the ranger guild anyhow. So....

-shrug-

Oh wells. x]

[spawnloser]

Whether you want to disagree or not, Qzzrbl, what X-D says is true.  C.elf rangers and d.elf assassins would both be totally broken in a coded fashion that you may not understand but others do.  You'll have to trust us.

[Twilight]

Funny, I don't remember tons of c-elf rangers running around when it was possible.  Although I do remember some comments about a d-elf assassin that was supposedly absolutely badass, back before the current guild restrictions.

[spawnloser]

That's because while c.elf rangers are bad ass, they aren't nearly as mobile as any other rangers.  That one limitation was a deal-breaker for most people, and would probably continue to be one.  There are people that know what they're doing with such a character, though.

[spicemustflow]

Dammit, now I really want to know what would make celf rangers totally broken. :curiosity:

[maxid]

Dammit, now I really want to know what would make celf rangers totally broken. :curiosity:

(Flames edited out by Niamh.)

For content:  I don't see any reason for c-elves not to get it, the parallel between the assassin that uses a bow vs the assassin that uses backstab is a good one.  But, it would still be /odd/ to see a c-elf trying to survive in the wastes, and it would be, rightly, ridiculed.

[X-D]

Wow, nearly 10 years so, what 7 or 8, that makes you a newb compared to either one of us.

Though, when you were just starting or a year or two before that depending on just how close to ten years you are, it was possible to play a celf ranger...though if caught and staff was feeling friendly that would be switched to delf ranger. Though I do know of one that lasted almost a month before getting caught. Which is why I know how unbalanced they can be on at least one point, I've seen it.

Nice Troll though buddy, why did you not post it on your normal GDB account?

[Majikal]

Not only is the race/guild combo itself fairly whack but I would argue that if c-elf got ranger than d-elf should get assassin back. Then nobody would be happy. Not anyone that wanted to go for a ride through the wilderness anyway.

And for those saying play the character and not the guild, nice words but unfortunately I doubt it would work out that way. Most players enjoy using their skills. Just my  2 sids.

[Gunnerblaster]

Most players enjoy using their skills.

Isn't that the truth.

[Kryos]

Yes: 17
No: 40

Think the thread is pretty much over.

[jstorrie]

I would be fine with that...if nobles likewise were not allowed to pick ranger as a guild.

I actually would also like to see more strident guild restrictions on nobles too–though this is not to say that there's an egregious problem in-game. But if a noble's taking anything other than merchant, assassin, or maaaaybe warrior, they should have to make a very strong case. Rangers, burglars and pickpockets all start with some very ignoble skills, if you'll forgive the pun.

And yeah, as mentioned above I am certainly not in favour of anything that ever opens up the desert-elf-assassin box. Assassins roaming the wilds on foot can be incredibly powerful if they don't really have to worry about stamina.

[spawnloser]

Actually, after Merchant, I think Pick-Pocket is the most appropriate guild choice for a noble.  Sneaking around an estate, sticking their greedy little fingers where they don't belong to take things from some family member when his/her back is turned?  Sounds perfect to me, actually.

[Majikal]

Actually, after Merchant, I think Pick-Pocket is the most appropriate guild choice for a noble.  Sneaking around an estate, sticking their greedy little fingers where they don't belong to take things from some family member when his/her back is turned?  Sounds perfect to me, actually.

Nobles understanding and practiced in the fine art of pickpocketing? Pfft, even in Tuluk the idea is a bit silly. I'd still be pleased to see nobles receive a more specialized skillset determined by backgrounds/clan.

/derail

[spawnloser]

Um, I think you're using 'practiced' in some strange way that I don't understand.  Why couldn't they have practice sneaking around the estate and stealing from their extended family small things?  Sure, they would probably never master the art and will never be a Rinthi, but who cares?  They could still have and use the skills and get practice at them in ways that are realistic.

[RogueGunslinger]

Yeah I wouldn't consider any starting skills as practiced. By any means.

[Majikal]

Guild pickpocket with starting steal skill, still considered someone practiced in the art of pickpocketing, by no means is it reliable, or amazing, but it's still impressive to some regard.

Guild warrior without the starting steal skill would be someone I'd consider unpracticed... there would be a very, very noticeable difference between the two trying to nick coins out of the pockets of others.

Nobles (without a very specific background) shouldn't have the aptitude of the guilds so often chosen, most commonly pickpocket.

[RogueGunslinger]

Now we're just in disagreement.

[Qzzrbl]

How the hell did discussion for the noble guild wind up in here? o-O

[Bilanthri]

The thing that stands out to me in all this nay-saying is that, if urban human communities have members who are trained to bring food and materials back to their families, why wouldn't urban elven communities do the same. Sure, some of this would be handled through theft from market stalls or even directly from non-tribe rangers, but elves are industrious in their methods. It seems strange to me that city-bred elves would be racially deterred from learning to survive in the wilderness when no other urbanized race has such a restriction.

City-elf: I never leave the city.
Human: But I can show you where too look for water.
City-elf: Nope, not listening. La-la-la-la.

[Marauder Moe]

One barrier to c-elves being rangers is transportation.  They can't run like a d-elf, but won't ride mounts either.


Also, are you saying "human communities" as in like "Allanak" or "Tuluk"?  If so, you should consider that c-elves are part of those communities too, and there's nothing stopping them from buying food and water just like most c-humans do.

[Mazy]

The thing that stands out to me in all this nay-saying is that, if urban human communities have members who are trained to bring food and materials back to their families, why wouldn't urban elven communities do the same. Sure, some of this would be handled through theft from market stalls or even directly from non-tribe rangers, but elves are industrious in their methods. It seems strange to me that city-bred elves would be racially deterred from learning to survive in the wilderness when no other urbanized race has such a restriction.

The adjective city denotes the city is their means of survival. To me, it doesn't seem strange that they've abandoned their tribal traditions of hunting and gathering when they safely settled into a city. Hm, a city elf ranger actually would be a burglar.

Code Select Expand

>forage apartment
You look around and find a pair of grey hide boots.

Seriously though, I would imagine a city elf ranger to be SHOULD be rare but not impossible. I voted no because it just wouldn't be reasonable to me for your average city elf to go back to their tribal roots and take up the trade of a ranger. Looking to what Moe said, if they really wanted extremely long travel times, highly limited mobility, and to be at a general disadvantage compared to humans, someone could always use the special application tool to apply for one.

[creepyguy]

Seriously though, I would imagine a city elf ranger to be SHOULD be rare but not impossible. I voted no because it just wouldn't be reasonable to me for your average city elf to go back to their tribal roots and take up the trade of a ranger. As Moe said, if they really wanted extremely long travel times, highly limited mobility, and to be at a general disadvantage compared to humans, someone could always use the special application tool to apply for one.

I discussed the outdoor travel aspects of city-elves here: http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,38965.0.html

I still think there should be some middle ground between city-elves outdoor movement and desert elves, as it makes absolutely no sense for city-elves to be too proud of their non-existent running ability to ride a mount.
But instead of beating that dead horse, if c-elf rangers were to be allowed rarely, then they should be either spec apped, or perhaps set at a certain karma level.
In addition, since they would have spent alot of time outdoors learning and training their ranger skills and abilities, and to make up for their lack of ride and the associated benefits of that, they should get some partial d-elf running ability. Such as reduced movement cost for roads, or even able to run on roads for the same cost as walking, just something to balance them, which can easily be explained by their unusual amount of time spent outdoors.

[Bilanthri]

Also, are you saying "human communities" as in like "Allanak" or "Tuluk"?  If so, you should consider that c-elves are part of those communities too, and there's nothing stopping them from buying food and water just like most c-humans do.

Allanak and Tuluk are what I would consider super-communities, made up of sub-communities that are racially, socially, economically, or geographically defined.

A tribe of c-elves living in the Tuluki warrens are a community in and of themselves, though they are also a component of the larger Warrens community, which in turn is a portion of the community made up of Tuluki citizens. Each of these community layers has its own set of "rules" that members must conform to.

Example: The elven tribe would view theft as viable and rewarding, but when interacting as members of the Warrens community the attitude must take into account more than just an elven mindset, though, being equally poor, theft would still be viewed as viable. However, the larger community of Tuluki citizens do not see theft as viable as this community also incorporates free merchants and other types that would not take kindly to having their goods stolen.