Mind Rape

[RogueGunslinger]

I dislike that barrier is so worthless as a skill. In a world where anyone who's anyone and slip into your mind and pester the fuck out of you, I think people would have developed a better ability at blocking them out.

I propose a boost to make up for the many boosts that contact has gotten.

[Gimfalisette]

The boosts to contact have all been boosts to -starting- contact, not to contact overall.

Maxed barrier is good enough for what it needs to do, which is to make it easy to put back up, and make it so your PC doesn't pass out from using it.

Boosting barrier would only serve to make contact harder overall for noob PCs (and newbie players, somewhat) and mundane PCs. Contact is too valuable a tool in the IC world for me to want to overly burden those character types.

But, we have expel.

I believe the current situation is balanced.

[RogueGunslinger]

By raising starting contact, that makes starting barrier that much worse. Barrier already works in such a way that if both skills at at the same level, a person can break through your barrier after a couple tries, it doesn't make much since for it to start lower than the contact skill, they should be on the same level as was intended when both skills were introduced, before one got a bump, and the other didn't.

I don't believe raising barrier would make it harder(on a noticeable level) for newbies to contact people.

Maxed barrier is great, so is maxed contact, or any skill maxed. But it's starting level is painfully and annoyingly low, and requires much practice to even sustain, let alone be useful.


Edit: Oh, And I believe it would be more realistic, as well as more playable.

[Kryos]

I don't see a need for barrier to be improved for new characters.

[Gimfalisette]

I don't believe that it's "realistic" for most mundane commoner VNPCs/NPCs, anywhere, to ever use barrier. I think barrier is a highly-specialized skill that is used by PCs who have reasons to use it. So I think it's completely realistic for it to start out totally crappy.

As to playability, the game is totally playable without using barrier ever. I don't think I even knew barrier really existed, or what it was for, until I'd been playing ARM for six RL months.

[RogueGunslinger]

Hmm? Why wouldn't barrier be common use, If psionics are? Could you imagine having a telephone that you -had- to answer every time, and couldn't hang up? It'd get annoying and you'd practice the only ability you know of to stop it.

When I talk about playability I'm talking about having a ten days played character who's required to train the skill, not being able to block out a newbie with a little bit of persistence and the smarts to rest. It's anecdotal, but it's pretty crazy anyways, and probably shouldn't ever happen. Sure it's playable, but it's not fun, and doesn't really align with how I imagine psioncs to be in the game.

[jhunter]

I agree with RogueGunslinger. Barrier should start at a power level to match that of contact. It's plenty realistic for people to want to have quiet time in their heads and to be at least equally talented at doing so to begin with. The newbie argument doesn't really play into it. If someone wants to be available, they will not have barrier up. If they are busy and do not wish to be bothered they will do their best to keep people out of their mind. As it stands now, you start out having to play catchup with contact instead of a realistic balance to begin with.

[Kryos]

Barrier is a skill that when discussed, often raises my ire.  People's reasons for 'leveling' it are rarely in character.  Its information they gained from other experiences impacting their current pc.  Not always, mind you, nor everyone, but its often the reason.

Like Gimf has said, if you're some social standout that gets their mind sought often, very often, (byn serg, GMH merchant, and so on) then you might very well use barrier in order to gain a measure of peace.  Other reasons are rarely discovered by pcs, and is a IC thing to learn, each time you make a new dude.

In short, no need to tweak it.

[Oleupata]

I think what you're looking for is called expel.

[RogueGunslinger]

Barrier is a skill that when discussed, often raises my ire.  People's reasons for 'leveling' it are rarely in character.  Its information they gained from other experiences impacting their current pc.  Not always, mind you, nor everyone, but its often the reason.

Like Gimf has said, if you're some social standout that gets their mind sought often, very often, (byn serg, GMH merchant, and so on) then you might very well use barrier in order to gain a measure of peace.  Other reasons are rarely discovered by pcs, and is a IC thing to learn, each time you make a new dude.

In short, no need to tweak it.

People reasons for leveling are rarely IC? There could be a billion reasons to raise it for your character.

Why do you believe a commoner or anyone else wouldn't keep frequent contact with friends, family, workmates, or anyone else, just as much as someone who's got a busy worklife?

We're talking about the mass ability to instantly contact anyone at any time, instantly. If this was common practice, then you bet your ass my 'rinther elf is going to find a way to keep his mom from popping in and nagging him about doing his part for the tribe at any time.

I think what you're looking for is called expel.

Didn't even know this existed for a long time, easily two years. The fact that there -is- a more specialized skill for doing essentially exactly what Barrier does, only further makes me believe barrier should be common, and practiced widely enough for it's skill to warrant being higher for newbies.

[Jingo]

I'd like to see boost in effectiveness.

For what it's meant to protect you from, it doesn't do much protecting.

[Cutthroat]

Barrier works quite well the way it is, and when it does fail, expel is (hopefully) there to fall back on. I don't agree that expel does what barrier does - although it is another defensive measure, we know it functions differently, and it's important to not simply dismiss it because it's not barrier.

If you are a mundane, your ability to defend against unusual things should be middling or low anyway.

[RogueGunslinger]

Barrier works quite well the way it is, and when it does fail, expel is (hopefully) there to fall back on. I don't agree that expel does what barrier does - although it is another defensive measure, we know it functions differently, and it's important to not simply dismiss it because it's not barrier.

If you are a mundane, your ability to defend against unusual things should be middling or low anyway.

If you're anything but a mindbender, don't you mean? I think one's ability to defend against [skill that class specializes specifically in] should be directly related to whether they're [class with skill] too.

And I'm sure that's how it is. Raising -starting- barrier won't keep people from being mindbended, trust me. It will just allow people to block others from contacting them somewhat easier.

[RogueGunslinger]

I was thinking about it, and wouldn't it make more sense if the ability to Expel was a starting skill, and barrier branched from it?

[Reiloth]

I think things are fine the way they are. Getting barrier to a decent level doesn't require much patience, but just enough.

[RogueGunslinger]

Seriously though, shouldn't expell come first, being that's it's only used to get people out of your head, where as barrier keeps people from ever getting in, and also stops people from waying you if they do get in. Seems more powerful, and makes the expell skill seem almost useless.

[Cutthroat]

I was thinking about it, and wouldn't it make more sense if the ability to Expel was a starting skill, and barrier branched from it?

I agree with the logic of this, though it's probably too late to change now, unfortunately.

[Gimfalisette]

Because of the way that expel actually works currently, I disagree that it would make a better or more realistic or more logical or more useful starting skill.

[spawnloser]

it doesn't make much sense

Fixed.  Not a big thing, but someone proficient in a language using a wrong but similar word bothers the hell out of me.

I don't think I even really knew barrier existed, or what it was for, until I'd been playing ARM for six RL months.

This.  I won't explain what made me learn the real uses of the 'barrier' skill, but it really is something you should have to work for.

I agree with RogueGunslinger. Barrier should start at a power level to match that of contact.

Why?  Most people really don't need to 'barrier'.  It's only people that really need to 'barrier' that should use 'barrier' and get good at it, just like only people that really need to use their combat skills will put themselves into situations where they can use those skills and get better at them.

For what it's meant to protect you from, it doesn't do much protecting.

I say you're wrong.  I'm sure others will agree with me.  It can give the newer character enough protection from other newer characters.  When it is maxxed, it gives enough protection against others that have those skills it opposes maxxed.  By the non-psionicists get 'barrier' and 'contact' maxxed, they should also have 'expel' which further helps against those with more advanced psionic skills.

I think things are fine the way they are. Getting barrier to a decent level doesn't require much patience, but just enough.

Actually, no it doesn't.

Seriously though, shouldn't expell come first, being that's it's only used to get people out of your head, where as barrier keeps people from ever getting in, and also stops people from waying you if they do get in.

No.  It doesn't keep people from getting in.  It makes it more difficult to get in.  Also, it is only a stopgap method of keeping people that are in from doing something to you.

[RogueGunslinger]

it doesn't make much sense

Fixed.  Not a big thing, but someone proficient in a language using a wrong but similar word bothers the hell out of me.

Wow, that's actually embarrassing. Don't no why I fucked that up.

[mansa]

After 10 days of playing, barrier works the way I want it to.
Same with most of my other skills I have and actively use.

[Dan]

it doesn't make much sense

Fixed.  Not a big thing, but someone proficient in a language using a wrong but similar word bothers the hell out of me.

Wow, that's actually embarrassing. Don't no why I fucked that up.

Haha...

[Lizzie]

Personally, in my experience with the majority of my characters, I've had MUCH more reason to use expel, or wish I had expel, than I have to use barrier, or wish it was any good.

In *most* cases, my characters have need/reason to keep their minds available to be contacted, and to contact others. However, often there are people who might contact them, who they really don't want to talk to, or even have to deal with. Expel is the solution to that...however one can't even branch expel, without having first gotten good with barrier. And if one has no IC reason to USE barrier, let alone get any good with it, then you're basically fucked.

[Gimfalisette]

However, often there are people who might contact them, who they really don't want to talk to, or even have to deal with. Expel is the solution to that...however one can't even branch expel, without having first gotten good with barrier. And if one has no IC reason to USE barrier, let alone get any good with it, then you're basically fucked.

Barrier actually works quite well in that circumstance. It's preferable to expel in a couple of ways, even.

[Zoltan]

I don't think any change is necessary, or especially realistic. If you have a reason to use barrier, use it. I have never had any character try to "work" on his barrier skills unless he was explicitly instructed to by a superior or if something happened to make it necessary. I'm not going to dig up the quote, but someone earlier said that they get a slight OOC, maybe power-gamish feeling occasionally when barrier use gets brought up IC. I totally agree.

Rather than people on Zalanthas just getting awesome with barrier, I imagine that most would just learn to ignore people who Wayed them when they feel like it. In fact, I did that before and it worked great!

[Reiloth]

I think that it is logical that barrier comes before expel. Barrier is a passive, defensive psionic ability. Expel is an active, offensive psionic ability. It should be more difficult to push someone out of your mind forcibly than preventing them from getting in.

[Lizzie]

I can agree with that logic Relioth, but it doesn't make it any less frustrating and annoying (edited to add: it is also OOCly distasteful to me) to know that the only reason I practice barrier, is so that I can branch expel.

[RogueGunslinger]

I can agree with that logic Relioth, but it doesn't make it any less frustrating and annoying (edited to add: it is also OOCly distasteful to me) to know that the only reason I practice barrier, is so that I can branch expel.

Heh, welcome to branching.

[Reiloth]

I can agree with that logic Relioth, but it doesn't make it any less frustrating and annoying (edited to add: it is also OOCly distasteful to me) to know that the only reason I practice barrier, is so that I can branch expel.

Heh, welcome to branching.

EDIT::

Barrier is not completely useless. No matter what you think in comparison to "Psionic Capability", Barrier definitely has its uses in mundane and extraordinary life. Whether you are a Noble wishing to remain incognito, or a Magicker living without a Gem and not wishing to be contacted -- It isn't infaliable, but no skill in Armageddon really is. In the case your barrier is broken, mundanes now have the ability to expel foreign presences from their mind. A couple years ago, even that wasn't the case.

I think things are fine the way they are. It takes some time to work up your barrier, but if you are making enemies or annoyances that truly neccessitate using a barrier or expel as a newbie...Kind of makes me wonder what company you are seeking. Mundane commoners should never have a need to use barrier unless they are trying to avoid someone through the Way. Mundane commoners should be absolutely great at Contact, and I think it's something that characters should start out with at a much higher starting level than it is even now. I think any PC, NPC, or vNPC past the age of 15 should be 100% proficient in carrying on a normal conversation (One, not many) and not pass out from exhaustion. Mundane commoners definitely shouldn't have a need for expel unless they are exceptionally paranoid, or have a marked interest in keeping certain people out of their head. (Whether that be a psion, an ex-lover, or a Templar).

[RogueGunslinger]

Here's my problem. If contact is a well known, well used skill amongst the populace, so that anyone who is anyone should know how to use it easily; Then why wouldn't the ability to keep people from their minds also be well known and often used? One goes hand in hand with the other, in my mind.

I go back to the metaphor of the telephone that you have to answer, and are unable to hang up. It'd make you furious. And ignoring it? Ignore someone talking in your head, heh, yeah right.

I can't argue against "well there's ways that psionics work that make this not a good idea for the game" But no one seems to be reasoning as to why exactly barrier shouldn't be a commonly used skill.

The more I talk about this the more I become frustrated by how psionics do work in this game. Seems more based on diku then in lore.

[spawnloser]

Personally, in my experience with the majority of my characters, I've had MUCH more reason to use expel, or wish I had expel, than I have to use barrier, or wish it was any good.

Let's parallel this with something mundane.  Would you rather have the shotgun to chase a burglar out of your home than have a lock to keep them out in the first place, or make it more likely they couldn't get into your home in the first place?

I can agree with that logic Relioth, but it doesn't make it any less frustrating and annoying (edited to add: it is also OOCly distasteful to me) to know that the only reason I practice barrier, is so that I can branch expel.

So the code/game should be adapted to fit your desires because you're frustrated?  Why not just give everyone all of the skills they could possibly branch from the get go since it's frustrating to branch?  This is the worst argument for changing code I have heard.  I'm sorry.

Here's my problem. If contact is a well known, well used skill amongst the populace, so that anyone who is anyone should know how to use it easily; Then why wouldn't the ability to keep people from their minds also be well known and often used? One goes hand in hand with the other, in my mind.

I already addressed this issue.  Few members of the populace have a real reason to keep people out of their head.  It is only the people that have a reason that would and should seek to develop defenses against intrusive mind-to-mind contact.  If your character is one that would/should desire this, your character must work at it.  Simple.

[RogueGunslinger]

I already addressed this issue.  Few members of the populace have a real reason to keep people out of their head.  It is only the people that have a reason that would and should seek to develop defenses against intrusive mind-to-mind contact.  If your character is one that would/should desire this, your character must work at it.  Simple.

I call bullshit. Spawnloser, if anyone and everyone could enter your mind on whim, there's no way in hell you can tell me that you wouldn't have a real reason to keep them out. Anyone who is introverted has a "real reason" not to want anyone to be able to enter their mind. Anyone who has gotten sick of their mother nagging at them...

Once again. If you had a cellphone that you could not hang up or ignore without a skill in real life, you'd work your ass of to get that skill. I promise you.

[X-D]

I agree with RGS.

It has always bugged me that contact tends to be easier, that my PC who might actually know his own mind and have but tons of practice into defending it, not only cannot, even against another person who is NOT a mindbender but can also break other barriers with relative ease.

Defending home ground should be easier then attacking.

[Lizzie]

Personally, in my experience with the majority of my characters, I've had MUCH more reason to use expel, or wish I had expel, than I have to use barrier, or wish it was any good.

Let's parallel this with something mundane.  Would you rather have the shotgun to chase a burglar out of your home than have a lock to keep them out in the first place, or make it more likely they couldn't get into your home in the first place?

I can agree with that logic Relioth, but it doesn't make it any less frustrating and annoying (edited to add: it is also OOCly distasteful to me) to know that the only reason I practice barrier, is so that I can branch expel.

So the code/game should be adapted to fit your desires because you're frustrated?  Why not just give everyone all of the skills they could possibly branch from the get go since it's frustrating to branch?  This is the worst argument for changing code I have heard.  I'm sorry.

Here's my problem. If contact is a well known, well used skill amongst the populace, so that anyone who is anyone should know how to use it easily; Then why wouldn't the ability to keep people from their minds also be well known and often used? One goes hand in hand with the other, in my mind.

I already addressed this issue.  Few members of the populace have a real reason to keep people out of their head.  It is only the people that have a reason that would and should seek to develop defenses against intrusive mind-to-mind contact.  If your character is one that would/should desire this, your character must work at it.  Simple.

Let's not, because this isn't something mundane. It's a coded skill in a text-based fantasy game. In real life, I would -not- need a shotgun OR a secure lock, because I live in a low-crime area where people don't need either of the two.

I never argued that the code needs to be changed at all, nor did I say, imply, hint, or type, that the game/code should be adapted to fit my desires. This is a discussion board. People were offering their opinions. I offered mine.  My opinion, is that it's frustrating to really -want- to use expel -instead- of Barrier, but not only does your barrier suck, but you also don't even -have- expel. It is frustrating. I have no solution. If I did, I would have posted it. Your apology is accepted.

[spawnloser]

RGS and X-D, think about it this way, you're thinking about your characters, not about the general populace.  Most of our characters do indeed have a need to keep secrets, yeah.  The general populace, however, the masses of NPCs, VNPC or not, they don't really have ANY need to guard their thoughts.  Plenty of PCs also don't.

Lizzie, it was an analogy.  Your particular position in RL has no bearing on an analogy, a hypothetical situation set up to explain something that you understood differently.  You're refusing to even process the analogy, however, to try to understand another's point of view.

[RogueGunslinger]

RGS and X-D, think about it this way, you're thinking about your characters, not about the general populace.  Most of our characters do indeed have a need to keep secrets, yeah.  The general populace, however, the masses of NPCs, VNPC or not, they don't really have ANY need to guard their thoughts.  Plenty of PCs also don't.

Everyone has reason to keep secrets. I, in real life, personally, keep secrets. Secrets that if some would know, might change their entire perspective of me. This is how the world works. And that bolded portion up there. Yeah, that's for you to read over.

Most of our characters do indeed have a need to keep secrets. Which is why most of our characters would use a barrier system to keep others from invading their thought.

[Dar]

Contact needed to be bumped up. Because newbies had difficulties finding people to find employment and get into the game. Because people missed out on roleplay and interaction, due to a low and unworkable contact. The bump of contact improved the learning curve for new players and encouraged and eased their integration into the game.

Barrier is an experienced player/developed character tool. Both of those tend to be big boys, figure it out, increase it, and do your thing.

If you are having difficulties with characters with non mundane psionic abilities catching a moment when a character is undeveloped to do their thing, whatever it is. Honestly, that's a flaw of the players running those characters, not the game overral.

[number13]

I think some of the problem is that there's no middle of the road option for psionics. On on class level, either you're a amateur user of the Way or your potential is nigh godlike.

I don't see Lord Kickass Tor, Senior Agent Moneybags, or Master Criminal Amos just accepting the fact that his mind going to be an open book the millisecond a 'bender decides that it is so, or that they'd accept that they are going to be contacted by morons all day long.

I once (by mistake) contacted an a high ranking southern NPC with my little Undertuluk dweeb.  While it's doubtless that Lord Animated NPC had methods of retribution on an individual level, it occurred to me then that it would be pretty easy for templars or GMH agents to organize a "send nastygrams to Lord Kickass for the week" event, where they get the entire population of Tuluk to annoy the ever living hell out of a character. Obviously, the peoples of Zalanthas would of developed defenses against similar attacks. Wouldn't they?

More of a arm.2 thing, but I could see a psionic culture developing savants who specialize in the communicative aspects of the Way.  Tasks might include maintaining multiple contacts, hosting parties in their skulls, seeking out mindbendy threats, listening in to nearby Wayed conversations and most importantly defending noble or merchant charges from unwanted intrusion. Or even commoners that are facing a particular annoyance.  Sort of a security guard for the mind -- perfect class for an Aide, maybe a bynner.  For a noble even.

[spawnloser]

Everyone has reason to keep secrets. I, in real life, personally, keep secrets. Secrets that if some would know, might change their entire perspective of me. This is how the world works. And that bolded portion up there. Yeah, that's for you to read over.

Most of our characters do indeed have a need to keep secrets. Which is why most of our characters would use a barrier system to keep others from invading their thought.

And warriors need to slash/stab/chop/bludgeon people.  We'd better bump their weapon skills, right?  Oh, and burglars need to pick locks, so we should bump that.  Pickpockets need to steal and assassins need to backstab.  Better bump those too.

Just because our characters want to do something, need to do something or whatever, it is no reason to give a boost to any ability or rework a skill-tree.

Honestly, I think this what Shalooonsh said about how he'd rather people start playing the game, doing the murder, corruption and betrayal that is the real meat of this game... instead of bitching about how combat isn't powerful enough.  Well, yeah, that applies to this situation too.

[RogueGunslinger]

Everyone has reason to keep secrets. I, in real life, personally, keep secrets. Secrets that if some would know, might change their entire perspective of me. This is how the world works. And that bolded portion up there. Yeah, that's for you to read over.

Most of our characters do indeed have a need to keep secrets. Which is why most of our characters would use a barrier system to keep others from invading their thought.

And warriors need to slash/stab/chop/bludgeon people.  We'd better bump their weapon skills, right?  Oh, and burglars need to pick locks, so we should bump that.  Pickpockets need to steal and assassins need to backstab.  Better bump those too.

Just because our characters want to do something, need to do something or whatever, it is no reason to give a boost to any ability or rework a skill-tree.

Honestly, I think this what Shalooonsh said about how he'd rather people start playing the game, doing the murder, corruption and betrayal that is the real meat of this game... instead of bitching about how combat isn't powerful enough.  Well, yeah, that applies to this situation too.

Way to talk about nothing and make it sound important . It's not about what our characters want to do. This has nothing to do with what class can do what, because they all have the barrier skill. My PC's don't 'want' barrier, they should reasonably have it, for a number of reasons I've already stated. And no one has stated why they think they shouldn't have it higher, or why it shouldn't be a well-used skill amongst the populace.

Edited some stuff.

[number13]

Just because our characters want to do something, need to do something or whatever, it is no reason to give a boost to any ability or rework a skill-tree.

Why not?  If I'm pickpocket, why shouldn't I enter the game being able to... pick pockets.  Where's the story gain in forcing me to flunk 100 times first? You know climbers in real life don't have to fall on their head 50 times before scaling a cliff. As a general rule, they don't fall on their heads at all, or else their hobby as climbers comes to a swift conclusion.

Honestly, I think this what Shalooonsh said about how he'd rather people start playing the game, doing the murder, corruption and betrayal that is the real meat of this game...

Neat. Then why not allow characters to start playing the game, instead of grinding out essential skills for a role? Like, for instance, barrier/expel?

[palomar]

Just because our characters want to do something, need to do something or whatever, it is no reason to give a boost to any ability or rework a skill-tree.

Why not?  If I'm pickpocket, why shouldn't I enter the game being able to... pick pockets.  Where's the story gain in forcing me to flunk 100 times first? You know climbers in real life don't have to fall on their head 50 times before scaling a cliff. As a general rule, they don't fall on their heads at all, or else their hobby as climbers comes to a swift conclusion.

Honestly, I think this what Shalooonsh said about how he'd rather people start playing the game, doing the murder, corruption and betrayal that is the real meat of this game...

Neat. Then why not allow characters to start playing the game, instead of grinding out essential skills for a role? Like, for instance, barrier/expel?

If you want skills higher than the normal starting levels, submit a special application. You don't have to fail a hundred times to get good at most skills. It seems to me that the 'teach' command is under utilized. If you want to get better (not necessarily 'good') at something in game without solo-practicing, find someone to teach you. Fun stuff.

Starting barrier is of course less useful now when starting contact is bumped. However, barrier is among the easiest skills to use, and it really doesn't take any "grinding" to get good at it. I don't see what the fuss is about.

[spawnloser]

They do reasonably have it, that's the thing, RGS.

[musashi]

My only problem with the barrier/contact ratio as it currently stands comes from the tidbit in the helpfiles that says you can improve your chances of contacting someone by using more and more and more of their keywords to give your PC a "clearer image of the person in their mind" and thus improve the chances of contacting them.

I think that makes barrier laughably weak compared to contact, since there is nothing you can do to add "boosts" to your barrier skill. At least nothing commonly available to anyone and everyone and in the helps detailing how.

As it stands, I believe that if I have maxed contact, and you have maxed barrier, and I type: contact the.brown.haired.blue.eyed.girl.Jenny ... ... I break your barrier. Every. Single. Time.

This also puts people at an ooc disadvantage as well I think. Those with more keywords are easier to contact. Where as: "the man" will be quite a bit more difficult to get ahold of, and that to me is an OOC code flaw, not an IG feature.

Ideally, I would honestly prefer it if only truenames gave a bonus to your chance of contacting someone, and using additional keywords was only useful in narrowing down your chances of mis-contacting someone else.

[mansa]

Maybe the bonus to contact using additional keywords (but NOT TRUENAME) doesn't happen when your contact skill gets to 60 and above?

[musashi]

I guess that would be a good middle ground between helping the newbies, and not making contact unbalanced against barrier.

Or perhaps having the bonus to contact using additional keywords (but NOT TRUENAME) only happen when the target being contacted is not using their barrier skill.

[Dan]

What if you could add a keyword to barrier to focus specifically on keeping one certain person out, while maintaining a weaker shroud against everyone else too?

Option number two...

Or lets say, if you put up a barrier and someone is in your mind already it'll be significantly harder for them to reach you again when they break contact and try again.

[musashi]

What if you could add a keyword to barrier to focus specifically on keeping one certain person out, while maintaining a weaker shroud against everyone else too?

Option number two...

Or lets say, if you put up a barrier and someone is in your mind already it'll be significantly harder for them to reach you again when they break contact and try again.

I like that first idea, because it might have good implications for raiders when it comes to keeping their identity secret while raiding lone travellers. That could lead to an increase in letting people who cooperate live and sort of help out with that other issue since it comes up on the boards every so often.

I think the second idea would be neat, but as an added improvement I'd like it if say, the penalty applied to them reaching you again being cumulative and lasting for a certain duration thereafter.

[Myrdryn]

I believe that using more keywords only helps contact the correct person (as opposed to someone else with the same name or that shares the same keywords).  I doubt it has any bearing as far as calculating the proficiency of the contact ability.

[Shalooonsh]

My only problem with the barrier/contact ratio as it currently stands comes from the tidbit in the helpfiles that says you can improve your chances of contacting someone by using more and more and more of their keywords to give your PC a "clearer image of the person in their mind" and thus improve the chances of contacting them.

I think that makes barrier laughably weak compared to contact, since there is nothing you can do to add "boosts" to your barrier skill. At least nothing commonly available to anyone and everyone and in the helps detailing how.

As it stands, I believe that if I have maxed contact, and you have maxed barrier, and I type: contact the.brown.haired.blue.eyed.girl.Jenny ... ... I break your barrier. Every. Single. Time.

This also puts people at an ooc disadvantage as well I think. Those with more keywords are easier to contact. Where as: "the man" will be quite a bit more difficult to get ahold of, and that to me is an OOC code flaw, not an IG feature.

Ideally, I would honestly prefer it if only truenames gave a bonus to your chance of contacting someone, and using additional keywords was only useful in narrowing down your chances of mis-contacting someone else.

I would prefer that -only- true names could be used in contact.  No descriptors, no anything.  Unless you know the person's true name, you can't get in.

[jhunter]

My only problem with the barrier/contact ratio as it currently stands comes from the tidbit in the helpfiles that says you can improve your chances of contacting someone by using more and more and more of their keywords to give your PC a "clearer image of the person in their mind" and thus improve the chances of contacting them.

I think that makes barrier laughably weak compared to contact, since there is nothing you can do to add "boosts" to your barrier skill. At least nothing commonly available to anyone and everyone and in the helps detailing how.

As it stands, I believe that if I have maxed contact, and you have maxed barrier, and I type: contact the.brown.haired.blue.eyed.girl.Jenny ... ... I break your barrier. Every. Single. Time.

This also puts people at an ooc disadvantage as well I think. Those with more keywords are easier to contact. Where as: "the man" will be quite a bit more difficult to get ahold of, and that to me is an OOC code flaw, not an IG feature.

Ideally, I would honestly prefer it if only truenames gave a bonus to your chance of contacting someone, and using additional keywords was only useful in narrowing down your chances of mis-contacting someone else.

I would prefer that -only- true names could be used in contact.  No descriptors, no anything.  Unless you know the person's true name, you can't get in.

I wholeheartedly agree.

[Akoto]

I would prefer that -only- true names could be used in contact.  No descriptors, no anything.  Unless you know the person's true name, you can't get in.

Wouldn't this be problematic if two people with the same name were logged in? It would also cut out using the Way to bridge language gaps, though I guess a case can be made for doing so.

[Pale Horse]

I would prefer that -only- true names could be used in contact.  No descriptors, no anything.  Unless you know the person's true name, you can't get in.

Wouldn't this be problematic if two people with the same name were logged in? It would also cut out using the Way to bridge language gaps, though I guess a case can be made for doing so.

Also does away with contacting anyone who uses a nickname by way of "keyword."

This begs the question of just how does the Way work?  Do you contact someone because you know The tall muscular man as Malik (when his real name is Amos) and since you associate his looks and mannerisms with person as "Malik" it does not matter what he really thinks of himself as?  If you gave someone a nickname to use for you, does your own mind's self identity as who you really are act as some sort of mental armor against being contacted?

Personally, I could see both happening, and if the one contacting has the higher contact skill then they do so despite the nickname and inherent defense built into the mind of the one being contacted.  Now, if the one being contacted (real name: Amos) has a barrier up, then combined with his sense of true self, he has a substantial ability to rebuff anyone attempting to find him by use of any of his nicknames he might have given out.

[FantasyWriter]

I would prefer that -only- true names could be used in contact.  No descriptors, no anything.  Unless you know the person's true name, you can't get in.

I would love this for 2.arm

[Twilight]

I would prefer a command (or possibly a skill) where while in the room with someone, you assign a mental tag in order to contact them.  Then a command to show those people you have mentally tagged.  Would use whatever sdesc the person had when you tagged him, re-tagging could update the sdesc.

If you have never met someone in person, you can't contact them, or possibily in conjunction with truename...you could contact them via your mental "tag" or via truename.

>tag hooded jimbob
You have tagged the short, heavy figure in a dark hooded cloak jimbob.

>tag list
the short, heavy figure in a dark hooded cloak-                           jimbob
the effiminate, whining man-                                                    templarhardnose


Edited to add:  On topic in relation to this, barrier could prevent tagging.

[number13]

I would prefer that -only- true names could be used in contact.  No descriptors, no anything.  Unless you know the person's true name, you can't get in.

Neat. /signed.  To spew out the obvious, it would offer up an interesting trade. You could be perfectly immune to having disguises pierced by the Way, having your log-ons tracked by contact, maybe even immune to mindbending, but at a cost of an efficient means of communication.

[number13]

Wouldn't this be problematic if two people with the same name were logged in? It would also cut out using the Way to bridge language gaps, though I guess a case can be made for doing so.

The game could be smart enough to automatically translate your truename, or the truenames of people in the same area, in any say/tell/whisper/shout string.

[MeTekillot]

Has anyone actually experienced an IC problem with someone contacting them? That made the game unplayable? If they haven't, I don't really see a reason why it should be changed.

[musashi]

I believe that using more keywords only helps contact the correct person (as opposed to someone else with the same name or that shares the same keywords).  I doubt it has any bearing as far as calculating the proficiency of the contact ability.

My assumption that it helps increase your chances of contacting someone successfully comes from this part of the contact help file.

Using multiple keywords is interpreted as forming a more complete
picture of the person you intend to contact, and increases your chances
of reaching their mind.

Likewise, using a person's true name is a powerful means of increasing
your chances of contacting them.

It seems like the help files certainly indicate that you can use keywords as a means of breaking down someone elses mind more effectively. I've also noticed a big increase in my own personal ability to contact people when I use their entire sdesc plus the name I know them by to contact them. It's even caused a few to tell me something equilivant to: Wow, you have a strong mind, you always reach me through my barrier - in game. So I wasn't just making blind speculation, though of course I certainly can't see the code and could very well be wrong. But that's what it felt like to me. If that's not currently the case then awesome, because I feel like it's mildly overpowering if it is.

Has anyone actually experienced an IC problem with someone contacting them? That made the game unplayable? If they haven't, I don't really see a reason why it should be changed.

That made the game unplayable? No. But there are a great many reasons, almost all of which too IC to get into, when a character would like to have a barrier up and not be easily reachable. It's difficult to do that right now because of how easy it is for someone to bust through your barrier assuming your skill levels are roughly the same, even without your true name.

[Riev]

I'm just spitballing here, but if these issues are so bad that it warrants suggesting a full overhaul, why don't you practice -real- hard on barrier, with some logs, over the course of a couple months or a year IC, and ask for a small bump?

[MeTekillot]

I'm just spitballing here, but if these issues are so bad that it warrants suggesting a full overhaul, why don't you practice -real- hard on barrier, with some logs, over the course of a couple months or a year IC, and ask for a small bump?

This man.

He speaks with wisdom.

[musashi]

Well, for one ... because I really don't believe staff would give it to you to begin with. I've never had a good experience with logging "training sessions" and then asking for a bump. Staff usually reply with: We don't improve skills you could improve yourself with practice.

Two, because the issue I'm talking about is still an issue, even if the contacting person and the barriered person both have their skills completely maxed to begin wth.

Unless you mean asking staff very nicely to bump your max in the barrier skill ... ... something even less likely to happen outside of a special app.

The issue for me, to put it simply, is that I feel like max barrier vs. max contact (for mundanes mind you, not talking about psions AT ALL) should at the very least be a 50/50 thing. Where it's just a flip of the coin to decide if the person knocking gets in. I'd prefer it if it were more of a 60/40 or 70/30 thing honestly, since as X-D put it, it's easier to do the defending in almost any circumstance ... but I'd at least be cool with 50/50.

However, as things currently stand, since you can add bonuses to your chance of contacting someone but you cannot (easily) add bonuses to your barrier, it's more like a 30/70 thing in favor of the person doing the contacting. You just tend to always get your barrier broken to the point where you start wonderng: Why did I even bother training this up? I wish it were just a tad more effective. And I don't think barrier needs to be boosted so much as I think contact could do with a little nerfing.

Small edit to add: Also I was not suggesting a full overhaul. I was suggesting doing away with one of the free bonuses people contacting other people receive, to even the playing field a bit. Or even only removing that bonus when the target is barriered. That way newbies could still find clan bosses for jobs (the reason why contact was given bonuses in the first place), but not at the total expense of people who might need to keep their minds shielded.

[Dan]

Pretty sure the extra keywords just help in contacting the correct person, not make it easier to actually contact them.

[Pale Horse]

Why not give a boost to the ability of barrier to keep someone out of your mind, but add in a message when someone is trying to find you but fails?

Something like:

Code Select Expand

You feel an unknown presence brush against your barrier.

This way we can actually tell if the thing is working or not, instead of only having to suffer from the times when someone manages to break through.  It's easy to say everything is broken when that's all we get to see, and not all the times when it's working.

[musashi]

Pretty sure the extra keywords just help in contacting the correct person, not make it easier to actually contact them.

If that were true then at the very least the helpfile should be rewritten. The way it reads now leaves very little doubt in the mind that using additonal keywords will increase your success rate. It even compares using multiple keywords to using a truename, and says they both do the same thing. So assuming you're correct, the helpfile would need a touching up in any case.

However, I've had a very different experience toying around with contact and seeing how my success rate changes when I type "contact amos" or when I type "contact tall.muscular.man.amos".

[mansa]

I believe that using more keywords only helps contact the correct person (as opposed to someone else with the same name or that shares the same keywords).  I doubt it has any bearing as far as calculating the proficiency of the contact ability.

...
In addition, we are adding a few bonuses to contact.  Using a character's true-name to contact them will increase your chance of contacting them.  Also, using multiple keywords will provide a smaller, limited benefit, showing that you are forming a more complete picture of who you are contacting.  Neither of these bonuses affect PVP psionic contests (such as with barrier).

Hmm.  Seems like you're right.

[musashi]

 

[X-D]

I would prefer that -only- true names could be used in contact.  No descriptors, no anything.  Unless you know the person's true name, you can't get in.

Golden.

[Reiloth]

Why not give a boost to the ability of barrier to keep someone out of your mind, but add in a message when someone is trying to find you but fails?

Something like:

Code Select Expand

You feel an unknown presence brush against your barrier.

This way we can actually tell if the thing is working or not, instead of only having to suffer from the times when someone manages to break through.  It's easy to say everything is broken when that's all we get to see, and not all the times when it's working.

I don't think mundane PC's would have the psionic knowledge to view who is trying to contact them through their barrier, or even if someone is trying to contact them at all. A barrier strikes me as an erect wall, and you can't see who is trying to climb up the other side.

[spawnloser]

In addition, we are adding a few bonuses to contact.  Using a character's true-name to contact them will increase your chance of contacting them.  Also, using multiple keywords will provide a smaller, limited benefit, showing that you are forming a more complete picture of who you are contacting.  Neither of these bonuses affect PVP psionic contests (such as with barrier).

For those complaining about how contact gets a boost but barrier does not, emphasis added.

[Boggis]

I would prefer that -only- true names could be used in contact.  No descriptors, no anything.  Unless you know the person's true name, you can't get in.

Golden.

Would be my preference too. Though imo mindbenders should be able to contact anybody using descriptors given their extreme ability with the Way.

[jhunter]

I would prefer that -only- true names could be used in contact.  No descriptors, no anything.  Unless you know the person's true name, you can't get in.

Golden.

Would be my preference too. Though imo mindbenders should be able to contact anybody using descriptors given their extreme ability with the Way.

I'd be fine with this too.

[musashi]

I would prefer that -only- true names could be used in contact.  No descriptors, no anything.  Unless you know the person's true name, you can't get in.

Golden.

Would be my preference too. Though imo mindbenders should be able to contact anybody using descriptors given their extreme ability with the Way.

I like this idea in principle, but I think that, given the -other- IC benefits knowing someone's truename can give to the right people, perhaps having a name attribute added that was seperate from keywords could work. Like:

addname Bob
Added!

tell guy Yeah my name's Bob.

And then from that point on, people could contact with you with either your truename, or "bob".

[Reiloth]

I would prefer that -only- true names could be used in contact.  No descriptors, no anything.  Unless you know the person's true name, you can't get in.

Golden.

Would be my preference too. Though imo mindbenders should be able to contact anybody using descriptors given their extreme ability with the Way.

I like this idea in principle, but I think that, given the -other- IC benefits knowing someone's truename can give to the right people, perhaps having a name attribute added that was seperate from keywords could work. Like:

addname Bob
Added!

tell guy Yeah my name's Bob.

And then from that point on, people could contact with you with either your truename, or "bob".

I like this.

[Boggis]

I like this idea in principle, but I think that, given the -other- IC benefits knowing someone's truename can give to the right people, perhaps having a name attribute added that was seperate from keywords could work. Like:

This was the first problem that I thought of too but then I figured that this could be the trade-off you have to make to have access to something incredibly useful like the Way. If you are in the position where you absolutely need to protect your truename from certain people then you'd obviously be extremely careful about who you would let know it. People do this all the time currently on Arm and keywords makes it very easy to get away with. But the change described by Shal would now mean making this effort to hide your identity would come with a price and perhaps a little suspicion depending on who you are.

So Templars, nobles and perhaps some who live completely outside the law could decide to sacrifice their ability to receive psionic communications easily from anybody and everybody. They'd still be able to issue orders and such through the Way to servants and any others who they know the truename of. For return messages they'd need a trusted aide to receive the message or wait for a letter if coming from somebody literate. Privacy comes with a price.

Your average Amos shouldn't really care about who knows his truename or not. The Way is a very simple and useful way of keeping in contact with people and it's usefulness would far, far outweigh the need to keep your name a secret for the vast majority of people.

[musashi]

I just worry that in practice, that would make it too easy for the outside the law people, and too difficult for the enforcing the law people.

[Kryos]

I really hope nothing changes with barrier.  To use often spoke words around here, the game isn't fair.

[RogueGunslinger]

The OP was never about fairness.

[Kryos]

Seeings as you're the OP, and you said "barrier should get a boost to match contact" it seems all about fairness.  Barrier doesn't need help and people shouldn't have to have your 'true name' to contact you.  The latter is especially foolish, though the current use is fine, as it has been shown, it doesn't help against the barrier skill.

[RogueGunslinger]

The OP(original post) was about making barrier equivalent to what it would have been, before contact got a boost. Less about fair, and more about original intent.

I like the idea of true name contact. I don't really see how it's foolish. But I suppose those who like it may be considered fools.

[Chettaman]

I'm down for true name contact.
But it would indeed make some things a bit more inconvenient.
At the same time - All those people who sneak into your mind and just leave. *edited: "touch'e, Amanda. Touch'e."*

Maybe if there were different levels of barrier...
>barrier weak (or just barrier for default)
You build a Nyr barrier around your mind.
> barrier strong
You build a fortified Nyr barrier around your mind.

No barrier allows people to use any of your keywords to find your mind.
the weak barrier would allow anyone who knew your true name to find your mind.
the strong barrier would try to block anyone from getting in.

Eh? Good idea?
*edited to add: I really hate it when people touch my mind and leave...

[AmandaGreathouse]

At the same time - All those people who sneak into your mind and just leave. Intentional or not. Would cease to exist.

Incorrect. I only use the names people give me to contact them and much of the time, when those people aren't logged in, I wind up contacting someone else entirely by name alone.

[Nyr]

I dislike that barrier is so worthless as a skill. In a world where anyone who's anyone and slip into your mind and pester the fuck out of you, I think people would have developed a better ability at blocking them out.

I propose a boost to make up for the many boosts that contact has gotten.

After some consideration, it doesn't look like starting barrier will be boosted.

[RogueGunslinger]

Awesome, I'm glad it's working as intended. Thanks for considering.