Mind Rape

[Reiloth]

I think that it is logical that barrier comes before expel. Barrier is a passive, defensive psionic ability. Expel is an active, offensive psionic ability. It should be more difficult to push someone out of your mind forcibly than preventing them from getting in.

[Lizzie]

I can agree with that logic Relioth, but it doesn't make it any less frustrating and annoying (edited to add: it is also OOCly distasteful to me) to know that the only reason I practice barrier, is so that I can branch expel.

[RogueGunslinger]

I can agree with that logic Relioth, but it doesn't make it any less frustrating and annoying (edited to add: it is also OOCly distasteful to me) to know that the only reason I practice barrier, is so that I can branch expel.

Heh, welcome to branching.

[Reiloth]

I can agree with that logic Relioth, but it doesn't make it any less frustrating and annoying (edited to add: it is also OOCly distasteful to me) to know that the only reason I practice barrier, is so that I can branch expel.

Heh, welcome to branching.

EDIT::

Barrier is not completely useless. No matter what you think in comparison to "Psionic Capability", Barrier definitely has its uses in mundane and extraordinary life. Whether you are a Noble wishing to remain incognito, or a Magicker living without a Gem and not wishing to be contacted -- It isn't infaliable, but no skill in Armageddon really is. In the case your barrier is broken, mundanes now have the ability to expel foreign presences from their mind. A couple years ago, even that wasn't the case.

I think things are fine the way they are. It takes some time to work up your barrier, but if you are making enemies or annoyances that truly neccessitate using a barrier or expel as a newbie...Kind of makes me wonder what company you are seeking. Mundane commoners should never have a need to use barrier unless they are trying to avoid someone through the Way. Mundane commoners should be absolutely great at Contact, and I think it's something that characters should start out with at a much higher starting level than it is even now. I think any PC, NPC, or vNPC past the age of 15 should be 100% proficient in carrying on a normal conversation (One, not many) and not pass out from exhaustion. Mundane commoners definitely shouldn't have a need for expel unless they are exceptionally paranoid, or have a marked interest in keeping certain people out of their head. (Whether that be a psion, an ex-lover, or a Templar).

[RogueGunslinger]

Here's my problem. If contact is a well known, well used skill amongst the populace, so that anyone who is anyone should know how to use it easily; Then why wouldn't the ability to keep people from their minds also be well known and often used? One goes hand in hand with the other, in my mind.

I go back to the metaphor of the telephone that you have to answer, and are unable to hang up. It'd make you furious. And ignoring it? Ignore someone talking in your head, heh, yeah right.

I can't argue against "well there's ways that psionics work that make this not a good idea for the game" But no one seems to be reasoning as to why exactly barrier shouldn't be a commonly used skill.

The more I talk about this the more I become frustrated by how psionics do work in this game. Seems more based on diku then in lore.

[spawnloser]

Personally, in my experience with the majority of my characters, I've had MUCH more reason to use expel, or wish I had expel, than I have to use barrier, or wish it was any good.

Let's parallel this with something mundane.  Would you rather have the shotgun to chase a burglar out of your home than have a lock to keep them out in the first place, or make it more likely they couldn't get into your home in the first place?

I can agree with that logic Relioth, but it doesn't make it any less frustrating and annoying (edited to add: it is also OOCly distasteful to me) to know that the only reason I practice barrier, is so that I can branch expel.

So the code/game should be adapted to fit your desires because you're frustrated?  Why not just give everyone all of the skills they could possibly branch from the get go since it's frustrating to branch?  This is the worst argument for changing code I have heard.  I'm sorry.

Here's my problem. If contact is a well known, well used skill amongst the populace, so that anyone who is anyone should know how to use it easily; Then why wouldn't the ability to keep people from their minds also be well known and often used? One goes hand in hand with the other, in my mind.

I already addressed this issue.  Few members of the populace have a real reason to keep people out of their head.  It is only the people that have a reason that would and should seek to develop defenses against intrusive mind-to-mind contact.  If your character is one that would/should desire this, your character must work at it.  Simple.

[RogueGunslinger]

I already addressed this issue.  Few members of the populace have a real reason to keep people out of their head.  It is only the people that have a reason that would and should seek to develop defenses against intrusive mind-to-mind contact.  If your character is one that would/should desire this, your character must work at it.  Simple.

I call bullshit. Spawnloser, if anyone and everyone could enter your mind on whim, there's no way in hell you can tell me that you wouldn't have a real reason to keep them out. Anyone who is introverted has a "real reason" not to want anyone to be able to enter their mind. Anyone who has gotten sick of their mother nagging at them...

Once again. If you had a cellphone that you could not hang up or ignore without a skill in real life, you'd work your ass of to get that skill. I promise you.

[X-D]

I agree with RGS.

It has always bugged me that contact tends to be easier, that my PC who might actually know his own mind and have but tons of practice into defending it, not only cannot, even against another person who is NOT a mindbender but can also break other barriers with relative ease.

Defending home ground should be easier then attacking.

[Lizzie]

Personally, in my experience with the majority of my characters, I've had MUCH more reason to use expel, or wish I had expel, than I have to use barrier, or wish it was any good.

Let's parallel this with something mundane.  Would you rather have the shotgun to chase a burglar out of your home than have a lock to keep them out in the first place, or make it more likely they couldn't get into your home in the first place?

I can agree with that logic Relioth, but it doesn't make it any less frustrating and annoying (edited to add: it is also OOCly distasteful to me) to know that the only reason I practice barrier, is so that I can branch expel.

So the code/game should be adapted to fit your desires because you're frustrated?  Why not just give everyone all of the skills they could possibly branch from the get go since it's frustrating to branch?  This is the worst argument for changing code I have heard.  I'm sorry.

Here's my problem. If contact is a well known, well used skill amongst the populace, so that anyone who is anyone should know how to use it easily; Then why wouldn't the ability to keep people from their minds also be well known and often used? One goes hand in hand with the other, in my mind.

I already addressed this issue.  Few members of the populace have a real reason to keep people out of their head.  It is only the people that have a reason that would and should seek to develop defenses against intrusive mind-to-mind contact.  If your character is one that would/should desire this, your character must work at it.  Simple.

Let's not, because this isn't something mundane. It's a coded skill in a text-based fantasy game. In real life, I would -not- need a shotgun OR a secure lock, because I live in a low-crime area where people don't need either of the two.

I never argued that the code needs to be changed at all, nor did I say, imply, hint, or type, that the game/code should be adapted to fit my desires. This is a discussion board. People were offering their opinions. I offered mine.  My opinion, is that it's frustrating to really -want- to use expel -instead- of Barrier, but not only does your barrier suck, but you also don't even -have- expel. It is frustrating. I have no solution. If I did, I would have posted it. Your apology is accepted.

[spawnloser]

RGS and X-D, think about it this way, you're thinking about your characters, not about the general populace.  Most of our characters do indeed have a need to keep secrets, yeah.  The general populace, however, the masses of NPCs, VNPC or not, they don't really have ANY need to guard their thoughts.  Plenty of PCs also don't.

Lizzie, it was an analogy.  Your particular position in RL has no bearing on an analogy, a hypothetical situation set up to explain something that you understood differently.  You're refusing to even process the analogy, however, to try to understand another's point of view.

[RogueGunslinger]

RGS and X-D, think about it this way, you're thinking about your characters, not about the general populace.  Most of our characters do indeed have a need to keep secrets, yeah.  The general populace, however, the masses of NPCs, VNPC or not, they don't really have ANY need to guard their thoughts.  Plenty of PCs also don't.

Everyone has reason to keep secrets. I, in real life, personally, keep secrets. Secrets that if some would know, might change their entire perspective of me. This is how the world works. And that bolded portion up there. Yeah, that's for you to read over.

Most of our characters do indeed have a need to keep secrets. Which is why most of our characters would use a barrier system to keep others from invading their thought.

[Dar]

Contact needed to be bumped up. Because newbies had difficulties finding people to find employment and get into the game. Because people missed out on roleplay and interaction, due to a low and unworkable contact. The bump of contact improved the learning curve for new players and encouraged and eased their integration into the game.

Barrier is an experienced player/developed character tool. Both of those tend to be big boys, figure it out, increase it, and do your thing.

If you are having difficulties with characters with non mundane psionic abilities catching a moment when a character is undeveloped to do their thing, whatever it is. Honestly, that's a flaw of the players running those characters, not the game overral.

[number13]

I think some of the problem is that there's no middle of the road option for psionics. On on class level, either you're a amateur user of the Way or your potential is nigh godlike.

I don't see Lord Kickass Tor, Senior Agent Moneybags, or Master Criminal Amos just accepting the fact that his mind going to be an open book the millisecond a 'bender decides that it is so, or that they'd accept that they are going to be contacted by morons all day long.

I once (by mistake) contacted an a high ranking southern NPC with my little Undertuluk dweeb.  While it's doubtless that Lord Animated NPC had methods of retribution on an individual level, it occurred to me then that it would be pretty easy for templars or GMH agents to organize a "send nastygrams to Lord Kickass for the week" event, where they get the entire population of Tuluk to annoy the ever living hell out of a character. Obviously, the peoples of Zalanthas would of developed defenses against similar attacks. Wouldn't they?

More of a arm.2 thing, but I could see a psionic culture developing savants who specialize in the communicative aspects of the Way.  Tasks might include maintaining multiple contacts, hosting parties in their skulls, seeking out mindbendy threats, listening in to nearby Wayed conversations and most importantly defending noble or merchant charges from unwanted intrusion. Or even commoners that are facing a particular annoyance.  Sort of a security guard for the mind -- perfect class for an Aide, maybe a bynner.  For a noble even.

[spawnloser]

Everyone has reason to keep secrets. I, in real life, personally, keep secrets. Secrets that if some would know, might change their entire perspective of me. This is how the world works. And that bolded portion up there. Yeah, that's for you to read over.

Most of our characters do indeed have a need to keep secrets. Which is why most of our characters would use a barrier system to keep others from invading their thought.

And warriors need to slash/stab/chop/bludgeon people.  We'd better bump their weapon skills, right?  Oh, and burglars need to pick locks, so we should bump that.  Pickpockets need to steal and assassins need to backstab.  Better bump those too.

Just because our characters want to do something, need to do something or whatever, it is no reason to give a boost to any ability or rework a skill-tree.

Honestly, I think this what Shalooonsh said about how he'd rather people start playing the game, doing the murder, corruption and betrayal that is the real meat of this game... instead of bitching about how combat isn't powerful enough.  Well, yeah, that applies to this situation too.

[RogueGunslinger]

Everyone has reason to keep secrets. I, in real life, personally, keep secrets. Secrets that if some would know, might change their entire perspective of me. This is how the world works. And that bolded portion up there. Yeah, that's for you to read over.

Most of our characters do indeed have a need to keep secrets. Which is why most of our characters would use a barrier system to keep others from invading their thought.

And warriors need to slash/stab/chop/bludgeon people.  We'd better bump their weapon skills, right?  Oh, and burglars need to pick locks, so we should bump that.  Pickpockets need to steal and assassins need to backstab.  Better bump those too.

Just because our characters want to do something, need to do something or whatever, it is no reason to give a boost to any ability or rework a skill-tree.

Honestly, I think this what Shalooonsh said about how he'd rather people start playing the game, doing the murder, corruption and betrayal that is the real meat of this game... instead of bitching about how combat isn't powerful enough.  Well, yeah, that applies to this situation too.

Way to talk about nothing and make it sound important . It's not about what our characters want to do. This has nothing to do with what class can do what, because they all have the barrier skill. My PC's don't 'want' barrier, they should reasonably have it, for a number of reasons I've already stated. And no one has stated why they think they shouldn't have it higher, or why it shouldn't be a well-used skill amongst the populace.

Edited some stuff.

[number13]

Just because our characters want to do something, need to do something or whatever, it is no reason to give a boost to any ability or rework a skill-tree.

Why not?  If I'm pickpocket, why shouldn't I enter the game being able to... pick pockets.  Where's the story gain in forcing me to flunk 100 times first? You know climbers in real life don't have to fall on their head 50 times before scaling a cliff. As a general rule, they don't fall on their heads at all, or else their hobby as climbers comes to a swift conclusion.

Honestly, I think this what Shalooonsh said about how he'd rather people start playing the game, doing the murder, corruption and betrayal that is the real meat of this game...

Neat. Then why not allow characters to start playing the game, instead of grinding out essential skills for a role? Like, for instance, barrier/expel?

[palomar]

Just because our characters want to do something, need to do something or whatever, it is no reason to give a boost to any ability or rework a skill-tree.

Why not?  If I'm pickpocket, why shouldn't I enter the game being able to... pick pockets.  Where's the story gain in forcing me to flunk 100 times first? You know climbers in real life don't have to fall on their head 50 times before scaling a cliff. As a general rule, they don't fall on their heads at all, or else their hobby as climbers comes to a swift conclusion.

Honestly, I think this what Shalooonsh said about how he'd rather people start playing the game, doing the murder, corruption and betrayal that is the real meat of this game...

Neat. Then why not allow characters to start playing the game, instead of grinding out essential skills for a role? Like, for instance, barrier/expel?

If you want skills higher than the normal starting levels, submit a special application. You don't have to fail a hundred times to get good at most skills. It seems to me that the 'teach' command is under utilized. If you want to get better (not necessarily 'good') at something in game without solo-practicing, find someone to teach you. Fun stuff.

Starting barrier is of course less useful now when starting contact is bumped. However, barrier is among the easiest skills to use, and it really doesn't take any "grinding" to get good at it. I don't see what the fuss is about.

[spawnloser]

They do reasonably have it, that's the thing, RGS.

[musashi]

My only problem with the barrier/contact ratio as it currently stands comes from the tidbit in the helpfiles that says you can improve your chances of contacting someone by using more and more and more of their keywords to give your PC a "clearer image of the person in their mind" and thus improve the chances of contacting them.

I think that makes barrier laughably weak compared to contact, since there is nothing you can do to add "boosts" to your barrier skill. At least nothing commonly available to anyone and everyone and in the helps detailing how.

As it stands, I believe that if I have maxed contact, and you have maxed barrier, and I type: contact the.brown.haired.blue.eyed.girl.Jenny ... ... I break your barrier. Every. Single. Time.

This also puts people at an ooc disadvantage as well I think. Those with more keywords are easier to contact. Where as: "the man" will be quite a bit more difficult to get ahold of, and that to me is an OOC code flaw, not an IG feature.

Ideally, I would honestly prefer it if only truenames gave a bonus to your chance of contacting someone, and using additional keywords was only useful in narrowing down your chances of mis-contacting someone else.

[mansa]

Maybe the bonus to contact using additional keywords (but NOT TRUENAME) doesn't happen when your contact skill gets to 60 and above?

[musashi]

I guess that would be a good middle ground between helping the newbies, and not making contact unbalanced against barrier.

Or perhaps having the bonus to contact using additional keywords (but NOT TRUENAME) only happen when the target being contacted is not using their barrier skill.

[Dan]

What if you could add a keyword to barrier to focus specifically on keeping one certain person out, while maintaining a weaker shroud against everyone else too?

Option number two...

Or lets say, if you put up a barrier and someone is in your mind already it'll be significantly harder for them to reach you again when they break contact and try again.

[musashi]

What if you could add a keyword to barrier to focus specifically on keeping one certain person out, while maintaining a weaker shroud against everyone else too?

Option number two...

Or lets say, if you put up a barrier and someone is in your mind already it'll be significantly harder for them to reach you again when they break contact and try again.

I like that first idea, because it might have good implications for raiders when it comes to keeping their identity secret while raiding lone travellers. That could lead to an increase in letting people who cooperate live and sort of help out with that other issue since it comes up on the boards every so often.

I think the second idea would be neat, but as an added improvement I'd like it if say, the penalty applied to them reaching you again being cumulative and lasting for a certain duration thereafter.

[Myrdryn]

I believe that using more keywords only helps contact the correct person (as opposed to someone else with the same name or that shares the same keywords).  I doubt it has any bearing as far as calculating the proficiency of the contact ability.

[Shalooonsh]

My only problem with the barrier/contact ratio as it currently stands comes from the tidbit in the helpfiles that says you can improve your chances of contacting someone by using more and more and more of their keywords to give your PC a "clearer image of the person in their mind" and thus improve the chances of contacting them.

I think that makes barrier laughably weak compared to contact, since there is nothing you can do to add "boosts" to your barrier skill. At least nothing commonly available to anyone and everyone and in the helps detailing how.

As it stands, I believe that if I have maxed contact, and you have maxed barrier, and I type: contact the.brown.haired.blue.eyed.girl.Jenny ... ... I break your barrier. Every. Single. Time.

This also puts people at an ooc disadvantage as well I think. Those with more keywords are easier to contact. Where as: "the man" will be quite a bit more difficult to get ahold of, and that to me is an OOC code flaw, not an IG feature.

Ideally, I would honestly prefer it if only truenames gave a bonus to your chance of contacting someone, and using additional keywords was only useful in narrowing down your chances of mis-contacting someone else.

I would prefer that -only- true names could be used in contact.  No descriptors, no anything.  Unless you know the person's true name, you can't get in.