Apartment Questions (from ATS)

[FuSoYa]

Yea I was just BSing... sorry guys.

Brandon 

[Cutthroat]

It's alright. Probably best to end this derail anyway!

My final thoughts on actual warehouses: I admit that I like the idea for the setting we will apparently see in Arm2, where there will be greater freedoms to start a group from scratch, but it's simply not suited for the current game. There are problems with it being put into the current game that involve player distribution (people will break down into even -more- groups than we already have), unbalanced wealth (indies are already better off financially than their clanned equivalents, most of the time), and the status of property (Nyr talked about that already).

The problem is probably not a coded problem (would it be so hard to change "a one-room apartment for 250 obsidian coins" to "a one-room warehouse for 2500 obsidian coins"?). The problem is that placing warehouses into Arm is like trying to jam a puzzle piece in the wrong place.

Maybe we could discuss how warehouses could be implemented in Arm2 instead of talking about how it can't be in Arm1.

[Delstro]

The only real reason I want to see warehouses and storage rooms is it gives the Templars, Nobles, and GMH family something to aim at. It often doesn't make much sense to take aim at random PC merchant because most of the money they make does not involve PCs. If this independent merchant had a storage room or warehouse, it would obviously mean they are making deals without being taxed by the Templars, controlled by the Nobles, and destroyed the the GMHs. It would give my Templars and nobles a sure fire way to make money. My Agent a surefire way to impress the Senior Agent. Otherwise, it feels like I am being a twink if I am harassing an indie merchant. Give me something to do that doesn't involve pleasing the populace so they will buy from me. Give me the ability to smash the enemy in non-combat ways.

[Rotten]

I would like to echo Nyr's comments and contradict them.

There is no corruption in Zalanthas, as there is no single, absolute standard of law or morality.  There is no legally recognized property in Zalanthas because ownership is determined by what you can take and hold by force, and the god-kings and their primary enforcers, the templars, are unassailable.  There is no moral corruption in Zalanthas because there is no religion.

The city-states enforce an artificial competition in the form of nobility and the Great Merchant Houses.  In essence, they place a few on top to keep everyone from trying to punch, kick, and bite their way to the top.  It's a form of peace.

If you want inalienable rights, make a rebel, fight for these fictitious things that can only last in a more stable society, and get killed.  Simple as that.  I think a few of you have been too tainted by free markets and capitalism to realize that some of what you ask just isn't feasible.

I would suggest that the nobles, templars, and merchant house family get more resources in the form of property under their control.  So long as the players in charge are given the ability to set up access to these resources, I don't think it's so much a strain on the staff beyond the initial start of this system.

[mansa]

The only real reason I want to see warehouses and storage rooms is it gives the Templars, Nobles, and GMH family something to aim at. It often doesn't make much sense to take aim at random PC merchant because most of the money they make does not involve PCs. If this independent merchant had a storage room or warehouse, it would obviously mean they are making deals without being taxed by the Templars, controlled by the Nobles, and destroyed the the GMHs. It would give my Templars and nobles a sure fire way to make money. My Agent a surefire way to impress the Senior Agent. Otherwise, it feels like I am being a twink if I am harassing an indie merchant. Give me something to do that doesn't involve pleasing the populace so they will buy from me. Give me the ability to smash the enemy in non-combat ways.

The ability to block 'selling to NPCs' of a specific clan?

oooooo

I'd pay big money for that.

[musashi]

There is no corruption in Zalanthas, as there is no single, absolute standard of law or morality.  There is no legally recognized property in Zalanthas because ownership is determined by what you can take and hold by force, and the god-kings and their primary enforcers, the templars, are unassailable.  There is no moral corruption in Zalanthas because there is no religion.

I'm ... not really sure what you're trying to get at here.

Are you trying to say that in the real world, we have a single, absolute standard of law or morality? Or are you suggesting that we don't actually have corruption in the real world either because we don't have a single, absolute standard of law or morality?

That whole bit seemed rather nonsensical to me, because it seemed like you were trying to compare human behavior in Zalanthas to human behavior in real life and somehow point out a different ... that ... well ... simply isn't there.

A bit off topic though. I just got confused trying to take that in and make sense of it because ... it should be glaringly obvious that we have corruption in the real world, while also having no absolute moral standard. And since the most "stable" countries in the real world (the ones with the lowest levels of murder ... underage pregnancy ... ect) also happen to be the most secular ... I was having trouble seeing the religion tie in to morality as well.

[Zoltan]

I think what Rotten means, Musashi, is that in many societies we -are- socialized about what's "right" and "wrong", though that is often brushed aside by the corrupt. There seems to be very little in the higher ideals department on Zalanthas. This of course is just referencing moral corruption and hypocrisy.

[RogueGunslinger]

There is no legally recognized property in Zalanthas because ownership is determined by what you can take and hold by force, and the god-kings and their primary enforcers, the templars, are unassailable.  There is no moral corruption in Zalanthas because there is no religion.

There's no Moral corruption in Zalanthas because there's no such thing as right and wrong. Only "what's right for me?"

Morals and religion don't go hand in hand. It's easy to keep a set of ideals that are (mis)guided by superstition and fear created all on your own.

[musashi]

Well, from a strictly scientific point of view there would have to be morals to allow for the society to survive. Things like ... the birthrate has to be greater than the death rate, so murder has to be amoral. If the death rate overtakes the birth rate, the society ends.

But as fun as talking about that would be ... this is sort of a derail. Sorry about that!

[Delstro]

You could move all that to another thread. You are degrading the efforts to get this thread into the productive stage.

My bottom line:
I want to be the hammer that smashes independent dreams. This would allow some to prosper, some to fail, and all independent merchants to be used to destroy my enemies. It would also provide goals for long lived merchant PCs, because (Being honest here.) after a while, there isn't much to do that you havn't done as a merchant.

[Is Friday]

There is no legally recognized property in Zalanthas because ownership is determined by what you can take and hold by force, and the god-kings and their primary enforcers, the templars, are unassailable.  There is no moral corruption in Zalanthas because there is no religion.

There's no Moral corruption in Zalanthas because there's no such thing as right and wrong. Only "what's right for me?"

Morals and religion don't go hand in hand. It's easy to keep a set of ideals that are (mis)guided by superstition and fear created all on your own.

I had a character recently that a lot of people said was a "good man".

[My 2 sids]

Judging by some of the "well of course it'd be IC for the GMH to squelch any and all independents"  than I guess I'll special app an elite assasin so I can be hired by the GMH to kill off each and every other NPC merchant (damn that breed flaunting a tent selling her 10-sid salt jewlery!).    Better yet, let's just get rid of ALL "bazzar" areas all together --  Just have one big strip mall of GMHs!   

ICly entire families (not just two people) can occupy an appartment and ICly even folks hawking their wares from a mat probably have a draw in some crampt little apartment where they can craft their 0.0000001% of the economy.   Yes or No?

If you want to make it IC that there is _any_ other merchant besides GMH; than make it playable for PCs. 

[a strange shadow]

It's playable. You just can't cram a warehouse full of goods into an apartment room. Players are packrats. Sell what you don't need, and if you don't have much room left for craftables... use up what you've got until you need to make a resource run. I really don't see the "unplayability" here.

That said, I do agree that apartment room capacities should be raised a bit, or at least varied, so that those large apartment rooms can hold more than the small, cramped rat-holes... and that a look should be taken at how much space is taken up by furniture. The problem with room capacities as they are is that though furniture only has a certain bulk, its weight can cause it to take up far more "room" than it should, e.g. obsidian couches.

[Lizzie]

Which "well of course it'd be IC for the GMH to squelch any and all independents" posts are you referring to My2Sids? Because, I haven't seen any posts suggesting such extremes. I've seen some posts - including my own, suggesting that independent PCs that pose a threat to the profits of a GMH pc, should expect some kind of IC consequences for becoming -that- successful. I've seen several posts, including my own, suggesting that most of those NPCs in the markeplaces are either part of the GMH setup, or are -not- in competition with them. Such as, the feather jewelry girl in Freil's Rest. She's no competition to Kadius, because Kadius doesn't manufacture feather jewelry for sale. Nor do they manufacture crappy clothing, or isilt jewelry, or scrub gear, or even bows and arrows, for sale. They -have- a bow that they provide, but it isn't made by Kadius. It's for sale as a courtesy to hunters. So again - there is no competition to the shops. There IS, however, competition between independent PCs and clanned PCs. So if my Kadian Master Crafter Merchant learns that you, an independent clothworker from the Warrens, are getting orders from noble PCs for master clothing items, and those nobles are not buying from me, then yeah. You're competition. And yeah, I have the family clout to do something about it. And yeah, it would be 100% appropriate and IC and even expected, to do something about it.

Furthermore, that expectation should come from you, and the noble who asked for that master crafter item. You should -both- be concerned that you might get caught, and disappear, and the noble not get his creamy-white sun-emblazoned green-embroidered silk collar with goudra tails hanging down from the ends. Tacky as his order is, he should know that NOT getting it from Kadius, is a snub to Kadius, and Kadius as a House has a LOT more clout than he has as a PC.

[FantasyWriter]

I've had several successful crafters who neither were a part of a GMH nor owned an apartment.

I don't see how amassing piles of materials=profit?
I do see how amassing piles of materials would be good for spamcrafting, though.

Buy/gather the materials you need, work them, then sell them.
Also, I would like to see more guild-merchant's who focused ICly on one crafting tree instead of tryng to master everything.
IRL, I don't know that many weaponssmith/armorsmith/jeweler/sculptor/tailor/weaver/carpenters, but heh.. I don't get out much.

[Xagon]

The only problem I see as far as stockpiling materials go is, sometimes, you -need- all of them.

1000 is a bit much, but it'd make sense to have ten of each kind of crafting material, along with the right tools.

Not everyone has all that OOC crafting experience and knows how to make that item of awesomeness requiring five obscure materials.

[Erythil]

The growing hostility toward independent merchants is effectively turning them into a stealth class, and the changes over the past several years have been progressively crippling their ability to make coin.

Independent merchants can still make ridiculous amounts of money very quickly, without attracting much attention, or having to hold a warehouse worth of inventory.  Actually, just about any independent can make ridiculous amounts of money. 

This.

I made an independent merchant, very recently, as my first character, and I had absolutely no trouble making very large amounts of money with minimal PC sponsorship.  There is a tradeoff you make:  In return for having no quotas, no boss, and keeping all the profits, you can't keep nearly as many goods on hand.

All this means is a quick turnover rate.  I.E., instead of stockpiling goods, you acquire raw materials, craft them immediately, and sell the results immediately.  I thought this made a certain amount of sense, but certain people seemed shocked ICly that my apartment wasn't bursting at the seams with mountains of stuff.

Before that, in fact, I was paranoid that my rather modest stockpile of goods was going to make my apartment collapse.


Renting small stock rooms sounds exactly like the sort of service Nenyuk might provide in the big cities, seeing as how they already charge a nominal fee for the use of their vaults.  People worried about this somehow neutering the merchant houses should remember that merchant houses have access to a vast number of crafts that independents can NEVER learn.  Their special advantage is hard-coded into the game.  And as said before, this creates interesting new RP for thieves.

I also think there should be a few more IC apartments.  As it stands, it seems very difficult to get any room whatsoever, large room notwithstanding.

[My 2 sids]

I'm surprised that folks don't consider the idea of rented warehouses as fitting in game (esp. the big cities)

How many have (or have had) PCs whose background states they were crammed in some ramshackle hovel w/ nine other people?  Why?  Because life is expensive!  Likewise, I would think having a 12' x 12' "work house" space shared between 3 - 5 crafters/ merchants would make perfect IC sense.    Even a small group of independents wouldn't make a dent in established GMH filled with thousands of employees w/ pockets as deep or deeper than some nobility!



Here's something else to consider:  How abrupt will the switch to Arm.2 be? It seems to me that making small tweaks to the game like this will help transition to a more player-run game.