Apartment Questions (from ATS)

[FantasyWriter]

Q1. Now that apartments can no longer be used as warehouses/barracks, has staff put any thoughts into having such space offered?

Q2. Would you be willing to back a Nenyuk PC to rent houses/huts or having an automated way of doing this?
--Could you not set up an NPC in a location in each city to distribute keys to houses such as landlords do apartment currently?

Q3. Would you be willing to entertain the notion of someone writing up a couple 'warehouses' with rentable work rooms.
--Would work just like apartments do currently but ICly different.
  --Roomdescs would be much different.
  --Some would be large enough to bring loaded mounts into.

Thanks as always for your time.
FantasyWriter

Discuss.

[Aaron Goulet]

I love the idea.  I imagine the current apartment code could be adapted to do this, as well, but I'm not sure.

[musashi]

It sounds a decent idea, but I would just imagine that IC'ly the GMH would have issues with independant merchants getting big enough to have warehouses ... not having them in game, could be for in game reasons.

[Yam]

I agree with musashi. The great merchant houses have monopolies for a reason. I don't think any independent warehouses are necessary. Nor do I think they they would be 'good' for the game.

[Xagon]

I'm a proponent of everything offered.

How else is the budding crafter going to get their dedicated space? Some skills can be done with a few carried tools, but others require bulky tools dedicated for the task at hand. Just have them be psuedo-apartments. Perhaps even have a shared "workspace" with rentable room lockers to hold spare material.

It would be nice to have a Nenyuki PC or two. It would open up completely new tangents of roleplay.

I'd gladly write up a workspace or two.

[Cutthroat]

Workshops maybe, but... eh. Not warehouses.

I think -anything- that encourages independent crafters towards joining a GMH (which is supposed to be a far better option than remaining independent, but codedly isn't for a variety of reasons that have been constantly discussed before) is a good thing. If that means crafters will find a ton of materials in one spot - a GMH warehouse - then that is good.

On the flip side of things, we are going to see warehouses and such in Arm2, I think. But then there won't be anything like a GMH to start off with, supposedly.

[Salt Merchant]

It sounds a decent idea, but I would just imagine that IC'ly the GMH would have issues with independant merchants getting big enough to have warehouses ... not having them in game, could be for in game reasons.

I agree with musashi. The great merchant houses have monopolies for a reason. I don't think any independent warehouses are necessary. Nor do I think they they would be 'good' for the game.

Might as well just remove the merchant class as a character creation option and reserve it for GMH special apps, if this represents the prevailing opinion of the players.

What's the point of creating an independent merchant if he's not going to be allowed to do anything merchanty for being squelched, between theft of raw materials, lack of warehouses, GMH's getting pissed over any activity at all, the absence of coins in the shops, the shops' inventories being full due to crafter subclasses and so on.

I think -anything- that encourages independent crafters towards joining a GMH (which is supposed to be a far better option than remaining independent, but codedly isn't for a variety of reasons that have been constantly discussed before) is a good thing.

Just another indication that Arm should be renamed "ClanMud".

[Lizzie]

I think there's room for both sides of this, and that it doesn't need to be an either/or.

I'm definitely of the mind that a *successful* independent merchant -should- be considered competition worthy of notice to a GMH.

HOWEVER

That doesn't mean that an independent merchant, successful or otherwise, should be shut out of the opportunity to store 2 bahamet shells, 2 mek hides, 5 piles of assorted canine bones, and a few dozen mantis legs in their small, modest store room simply because the apartment code has decided they're too heavy and you can't fit those things all in a single chest.

I for one would love to see warehouses that are sublet in sections. If you've ever seen chicken-coop basements in condos, you'd know exactly what I mean. It's one long basement, seperated by chicken wire into storage units for the residents, and each has a door with a lock. Residents are allowed to build up their unit with wallboard and plywood, which raises the value of their storage unit once they sell their condo.

You could have buildings designed exclusively for such a thing. One long "bunkhouse" type single-room building, divided into sections. No windows, no pretty couches, no beds. A work table, a set of shelves, and a door. And, most importantly, enough room to stack a few big chests, and shelving space to put those enormous mek hides and bahamet shells somewhere than on the floor.

Yes, this also leaves open the possibility that the clothworker will put thousands of lengths of cloth and dyes in his storage unit. However, if you come across a clothworker who can afford thousands of lengths of cloth and dyes, then you're dealing with a VERY successful clothworker who should already have captured the attention of a GMH. So either the GMH has chosen not to bother with him, or they're already devising their evil plans to steal his boots.

[Myrdryn]

I guess this would be a great target for the merchant houses to destroy.

[Lizzie]

Not to destroy, no. But it would give those guild_burglars a more "legitimate" reason to join a merchant house, and more of a "legitimate" reason for a merchant house to hire a guild_burglar. Burglars pretending to be hunters, getting clanned by a GMH as a hunter, then proving they can't do dick, is frustrating to both the GMH and the employee, PLUS the entire crew who was relying on that burglar to have at least -some- clue about doing stuff outside city walls. But if a burglar was hired -as- a burglar..and the boss and employee created the cover of a hunter together...

then imagine what fun it'd be having your own pet burglar learning strategy in breaking into these warehouses...strategic break-ins..so as not to scare everyone out of them..just, break in, grab oh, say, 1 mek hide from this room, 10 lengths of silk from that room, a small pouch full of small pieces of bone and obsidian shards from that room...and lock'em all back up again. This way, the independent gets to continue BEING an independent, but is providing a valueable service to the GMH (unbeknownst to him).

Plus, the burglar gets to BE a burglar, and maybe even gets free lockpicks from his Salarri boss.

[Yam]

It sounds a decent idea, but I would just imagine that IC'ly the GMH would have issues with independant merchants getting big enough to have warehouses ... not having them in game, could be for in game reasons.

I agree with musashi. The great merchant houses have monopolies for a reason. I don't think any independent warehouses are necessary. Nor do I think they they would be 'good' for the game.

Might as well just remove the merchant class as a character creation option and reserve it for GMH special apps, if this represents the prevailing opinion of the players.

What's the point of creating an independent merchant if he's not going to be allowed to do anything merchanty for being squelched, between theft of raw materials, lack of warehouses, GMH's getting pissed over any activity at all, the absence of coins in the shops, the shops' inventories being full due to crafter subclasses and so on.

I think -anything- that encourages independent crafters towards joining a GMH (which is supposed to be a far better option than remaining independent, but codedly isn't for a variety of reasons that have been constantly discussed before) is a good thing.

Just another indication that Arm should be renamed "ClanMud".

The merchant houses are monopolies for a reason.

Just because you have a hardon for independents doesn't mean that the game has to make things easier for them.

[Myrdryn]

What's the point of creating an independent merchant if he's not going to be allowed to do anything merchanty for being squelched, between theft of raw materials, lack of warehouses, GMH's getting pissed over any activity at all, the absence of coins in the shops, the shops' inventories being full due to crafter subclasses and so on.

In my opinion, the point is to attempt to overcome the obstacles and challenges while also interacting with, competing with and involving others in the process.  Success isn't always an option.  What's the point if it is easy?

[Potaje]

I read that a staff member wrote that if you have so much stuff rent more apartments, well let me rent more than one apartment in the same building and I will... or Expand the cities to allow for urban growth, ie larger apartments with stronger flooring, and more apartments for rent.. And it is a world where I would see families living together to survive... especially if they are pour.. but most the aparments are built for one to two people with belongs to live in. With only a couple of exceptions. So the talk is of to much stuff and wealthy indies.. and it, to me, is made to sound more like this one individual has to many belongings. But you put one or two people of different classes and crafting needs into one aprtment and you will always find that they seem to have more than a merchant house.. so families are no pentalized.. also penalized is being able to have the Rp stuff like clothing, mirrors, dressers. I say this because in the end something is sacrficed Rp materials or my flow of sid materials. So the aparment becomes a vancant space beyond containers for my craft, but no room life.
Perhaps on limiting the player base more for -What ever Real reason this happened- staff should have expanded the weight limit of the rooms. Seems there was no real give and take for in this descision, it was brash. I know for a fact as I know the catalyst to this descision, watching it from ground zero.


Anyways these are just thoughts and opinions of a minor sort. In the end its been set in motion and nothing further can be done other than comply.

Oh and How does the overweight in a ground floor apartment collapse the flooring.. is it not solid ground... I mean we are low tech and simplicity archetectually anyways, yes?

[FantasyWriter]

Those were kinda my thoughts that brought on the OP.

It seems they have taken options away from players (multiple roommates renting apartments and small indie organizations) without offering a viable alternative.

[Yam]

Those were kinda my thoughts that brought on the OP.

It seems they have taken options away from players (multiple roommates renting apartments and small indie organizations) without offering a viable alternative.

I don't really see how this is true. You can still rent apartments with multiple people. You just can't store a metric assload of stuff in there.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I'm happy to see clans become more important with this change. Independents are fine and all, but merchant clans should be where it's at. And this helps that happen, so I fully support anything that makes that so.

[Salt Merchant]

In my opinion, the point is to attempt to overcome the obstacles and challenges while also interacting with, competing with and involving others in the process.  Success isn't always an option.  What's the point if it is easy?

Making coin is the whole point of the merchant guild (or so I've thought). This coin could then be put to many good purposes, like hiring guards, launching trading expeditions, bribing templars and so forth. The merchant's unique power is in his ability to generate coin.

The growing hostility toward independent merchants is effectively turning them into a stealth class, and the changes over the past several years have been progressively crippling their ability to make coin. Furtive merchants aren't going to be able to contribute much to the game without coin or compensating skills, potentially afraid even to offer an item for sale to another PC.

As an aside, I don't believe it's reasonable for independent merchants to be a stealth class, given all the NPC merchants openly trading in the bazaars, even in market sectors that are supposed monopolies such as arms and armors (there are plenty of items that are not really core to the GMHs too, such as containers, tools and light sources). Why should small-time PC merchants draw special notice?

[Dar]

In a way. Right now, independant merchants should be 'thriving' due to IC reasons that affect the pricing and all.

[number13]

The growing hostility toward independent merchants is effectively turning them into a stealth class, and the changes over the past several years have been progressively crippling their ability to make coin.

Independent merchants can still make ridiculous amounts of money very quickly, without attracting much attention, or having to hold a warehouse worth of inventory.  Actually, just about any independent can make ridiculous amounts of money.  I think the desire for warehouses and the like isn't as much a matter of convenience as progression and reward.  Once a merchant PC has all those coins, it's natural to want to do something with them.

But coins usually don't amount to much actual value unless they are being held and used by a noble/templar/agent.  That's a good thing, but do I sympathize with people wanting to strike out the independent route. Clan life is often more restrictive without greater reward (in terms of IC wealth or RP possibilities).

That said, independently owned warehouses or workshops diffuse the player base even more. People will just end up hiding in their holes, crafting away and pack ratting an obscene amount of materials and goods, sometimes with no actual reason in mind other than the accumulation of essentially useless wealth and merchie skills.

I think the happiest situation would be to make clanned life more appealing to off-peakers, more appealing in general.

[Cutthroat]

The growing hostility toward independent merchants is effectively turning them into a stealth class, and the changes over the past several years have been progressively crippling their ability to make coin. Furtive merchants aren't going to be able to contribute much to the game without coin or compensating skills, potentially afraid even to offer an item for sale to another PC.

Don't mistake favoritism towards clanned merchants as hostility toward independent merchants. If anything, the changes brought about lately should encourage people to really work together, instead of the current ability for a merchant and hunter to split the rent for a place, and allow the hunter to gather for the merchant with minimal interaction between the two.

Sure, the whole working together thing could be done by joining a clan, but it could also just encourage more meaningful relationships between independent merchants and independent hunter/gatherers than just "leave X hides in the chest for me k thx".

And you seem to like the term ClanMud a lot, but I think most people agree that GMH merchants are supposed to be considered more successful than independent merchants. I think there should be steps taken to enforce this idea that GMH merchants are simply better than indy merchants; GMH products are simply better than indy products; and so on. I think this recent Apartment change is a strong step in that direction. The onus is on the GMH players to flaunt their status as a privileged employee of Salarr/Kadius/Kurac and show off how great their products are compared to Merchant Amos' stuff who has about as much potential as a crafter in a GMH, but prefers to keep to himself.

[Delstro]

I think the addition of warehouses would give long-lived merchants something to do. I am all for this idea as it sounds fun. I am sure there are independents of all sorts trying to get a hold of a lucrative trade niche in the virtual Armageddon. Let us bring it alive so I can prove why my character is Senior Agent, Agent, Merchant of Salarr/Kadius/Kurac. Agents never have enough to do anyways. If they can't handle an independent, they can't get promoted to Senior Agent. The one problem that I worry about, and it has happened to me before, is that when an independent is well-liked by the other characters, the law PCs seem to favor them and believe them more than they would my family member PC. The law PCs just need to remember, if it is me (A family member or ranking non-family member) against them (Independents), the law will and should always favor me over them. If you do not, I will set the wheels in motion to destroy you.

Tek animae tuae misereatur.

[LauraMars]

I like the idea of warehouses, but I think they should be very expensive, and require a minimum number of renters who are attached to it, to prove that there is a real operation going on.

[tortall]

Tek animae tuae misereatur.

For those of you that DIDN'T take latin....Tek's spirit will make you miserable.


Or something along those lines. I forget what the ACTUAL exact translation of the last word is.


P.S.
<3 Delstro for posting that.

[flurry]

I don't think you need a massive amount of storage space to have a successful indie merchant.

I don't think we're at much risk of becoming ClanMud. Indies already have great advantages in terms of the game economy, and I think this does very little to change that.

[Myrdryn]

An independent renting a warehouse, or something similar is always an option.  However because of various IC obstacles, it wouldn't be an automated system that would allow anyone with the coins to approach an NPC and rent a warehouse, similarly to how apartments now work.