Apartment Questions (from ATS)

[FantasyWriter]

Q1. Now that apartments can no longer be used as warehouses/barracks, has staff put any thoughts into having such space offered?

Q2. Would you be willing to back a Nenyuk PC to rent houses/huts or having an automated way of doing this?
--Could you not set up an NPC in a location in each city to distribute keys to houses such as landlords do apartment currently?

Q3. Would you be willing to entertain the notion of someone writing up a couple 'warehouses' with rentable work rooms.
--Would work just like apartments do currently but ICly different.
  --Roomdescs would be much different.
  --Some would be large enough to bring loaded mounts into.

Thanks as always for your time.
FantasyWriter

Discuss.

[Aaron Goulet]

I love the idea.  I imagine the current apartment code could be adapted to do this, as well, but I'm not sure.

[musashi]

It sounds a decent idea, but I would just imagine that IC'ly the GMH would have issues with independant merchants getting big enough to have warehouses ... not having them in game, could be for in game reasons.

[Yam]

I agree with musashi. The great merchant houses have monopolies for a reason. I don't think any independent warehouses are necessary. Nor do I think they they would be 'good' for the game.

[Xagon]

I'm a proponent of everything offered.

How else is the budding crafter going to get their dedicated space? Some skills can be done with a few carried tools, but others require bulky tools dedicated for the task at hand. Just have them be psuedo-apartments. Perhaps even have a shared "workspace" with rentable room lockers to hold spare material.

It would be nice to have a Nenyuki PC or two. It would open up completely new tangents of roleplay.

I'd gladly write up a workspace or two.

[Cutthroat]

Workshops maybe, but... eh. Not warehouses.

I think -anything- that encourages independent crafters towards joining a GMH (which is supposed to be a far better option than remaining independent, but codedly isn't for a variety of reasons that have been constantly discussed before) is a good thing. If that means crafters will find a ton of materials in one spot - a GMH warehouse - then that is good.

On the flip side of things, we are going to see warehouses and such in Arm2, I think. But then there won't be anything like a GMH to start off with, supposedly.

[Salt Merchant]

It sounds a decent idea, but I would just imagine that IC'ly the GMH would have issues with independant merchants getting big enough to have warehouses ... not having them in game, could be for in game reasons.

I agree with musashi. The great merchant houses have monopolies for a reason. I don't think any independent warehouses are necessary. Nor do I think they they would be 'good' for the game.

Might as well just remove the merchant class as a character creation option and reserve it for GMH special apps, if this represents the prevailing opinion of the players.

What's the point of creating an independent merchant if he's not going to be allowed to do anything merchanty for being squelched, between theft of raw materials, lack of warehouses, GMH's getting pissed over any activity at all, the absence of coins in the shops, the shops' inventories being full due to crafter subclasses and so on.

I think -anything- that encourages independent crafters towards joining a GMH (which is supposed to be a far better option than remaining independent, but codedly isn't for a variety of reasons that have been constantly discussed before) is a good thing.

Just another indication that Arm should be renamed "ClanMud".

[Lizzie]

I think there's room for both sides of this, and that it doesn't need to be an either/or.

I'm definitely of the mind that a *successful* independent merchant -should- be considered competition worthy of notice to a GMH.

HOWEVER

That doesn't mean that an independent merchant, successful or otherwise, should be shut out of the opportunity to store 2 bahamet shells, 2 mek hides, 5 piles of assorted canine bones, and a few dozen mantis legs in their small, modest store room simply because the apartment code has decided they're too heavy and you can't fit those things all in a single chest.

I for one would love to see warehouses that are sublet in sections. If you've ever seen chicken-coop basements in condos, you'd know exactly what I mean. It's one long basement, seperated by chicken wire into storage units for the residents, and each has a door with a lock. Residents are allowed to build up their unit with wallboard and plywood, which raises the value of their storage unit once they sell their condo.

You could have buildings designed exclusively for such a thing. One long "bunkhouse" type single-room building, divided into sections. No windows, no pretty couches, no beds. A work table, a set of shelves, and a door. And, most importantly, enough room to stack a few big chests, and shelving space to put those enormous mek hides and bahamet shells somewhere than on the floor.

Yes, this also leaves open the possibility that the clothworker will put thousands of lengths of cloth and dyes in his storage unit. However, if you come across a clothworker who can afford thousands of lengths of cloth and dyes, then you're dealing with a VERY successful clothworker who should already have captured the attention of a GMH. So either the GMH has chosen not to bother with him, or they're already devising their evil plans to steal his boots.

[Myrdryn]

I guess this would be a great target for the merchant houses to destroy.

[Lizzie]

Not to destroy, no. But it would give those guild_burglars a more "legitimate" reason to join a merchant house, and more of a "legitimate" reason for a merchant house to hire a guild_burglar. Burglars pretending to be hunters, getting clanned by a GMH as a hunter, then proving they can't do dick, is frustrating to both the GMH and the employee, PLUS the entire crew who was relying on that burglar to have at least -some- clue about doing stuff outside city walls. But if a burglar was hired -as- a burglar..and the boss and employee created the cover of a hunter together...

then imagine what fun it'd be having your own pet burglar learning strategy in breaking into these warehouses...strategic break-ins..so as not to scare everyone out of them..just, break in, grab oh, say, 1 mek hide from this room, 10 lengths of silk from that room, a small pouch full of small pieces of bone and obsidian shards from that room...and lock'em all back up again. This way, the independent gets to continue BEING an independent, but is providing a valueable service to the GMH (unbeknownst to him).

Plus, the burglar gets to BE a burglar, and maybe even gets free lockpicks from his Salarri boss.

[Yam]

It sounds a decent idea, but I would just imagine that IC'ly the GMH would have issues with independant merchants getting big enough to have warehouses ... not having them in game, could be for in game reasons.

I agree with musashi. The great merchant houses have monopolies for a reason. I don't think any independent warehouses are necessary. Nor do I think they they would be 'good' for the game.

Might as well just remove the merchant class as a character creation option and reserve it for GMH special apps, if this represents the prevailing opinion of the players.

What's the point of creating an independent merchant if he's not going to be allowed to do anything merchanty for being squelched, between theft of raw materials, lack of warehouses, GMH's getting pissed over any activity at all, the absence of coins in the shops, the shops' inventories being full due to crafter subclasses and so on.

I think -anything- that encourages independent crafters towards joining a GMH (which is supposed to be a far better option than remaining independent, but codedly isn't for a variety of reasons that have been constantly discussed before) is a good thing.

Just another indication that Arm should be renamed "ClanMud".

The merchant houses are monopolies for a reason.

Just because you have a hardon for independents doesn't mean that the game has to make things easier for them.

[Myrdryn]

What's the point of creating an independent merchant if he's not going to be allowed to do anything merchanty for being squelched, between theft of raw materials, lack of warehouses, GMH's getting pissed over any activity at all, the absence of coins in the shops, the shops' inventories being full due to crafter subclasses and so on.

In my opinion, the point is to attempt to overcome the obstacles and challenges while also interacting with, competing with and involving others in the process.  Success isn't always an option.  What's the point if it is easy?

[Potaje]

I read that a staff member wrote that if you have so much stuff rent more apartments, well let me rent more than one apartment in the same building and I will... or Expand the cities to allow for urban growth, ie larger apartments with stronger flooring, and more apartments for rent.. And it is a world where I would see families living together to survive... especially if they are pour.. but most the aparments are built for one to two people with belongs to live in. With only a couple of exceptions. So the talk is of to much stuff and wealthy indies.. and it, to me, is made to sound more like this one individual has to many belongings. But you put one or two people of different classes and crafting needs into one aprtment and you will always find that they seem to have more than a merchant house.. so families are no pentalized.. also penalized is being able to have the Rp stuff like clothing, mirrors, dressers. I say this because in the end something is sacrficed Rp materials or my flow of sid materials. So the aparment becomes a vancant space beyond containers for my craft, but no room life.
Perhaps on limiting the player base more for -What ever Real reason this happened- staff should have expanded the weight limit of the rooms. Seems there was no real give and take for in this descision, it was brash. I know for a fact as I know the catalyst to this descision, watching it from ground zero.


Anyways these are just thoughts and opinions of a minor sort. In the end its been set in motion and nothing further can be done other than comply.

Oh and How does the overweight in a ground floor apartment collapse the flooring.. is it not solid ground... I mean we are low tech and simplicity archetectually anyways, yes?

[FantasyWriter]

Those were kinda my thoughts that brought on the OP.

It seems they have taken options away from players (multiple roommates renting apartments and small indie organizations) without offering a viable alternative.

[Yam]

Those were kinda my thoughts that brought on the OP.

It seems they have taken options away from players (multiple roommates renting apartments and small indie organizations) without offering a viable alternative.

I don't really see how this is true. You can still rent apartments with multiple people. You just can't store a metric assload of stuff in there.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I'm happy to see clans become more important with this change. Independents are fine and all, but merchant clans should be where it's at. And this helps that happen, so I fully support anything that makes that so.

[Salt Merchant]

In my opinion, the point is to attempt to overcome the obstacles and challenges while also interacting with, competing with and involving others in the process.  Success isn't always an option.  What's the point if it is easy?

Making coin is the whole point of the merchant guild (or so I've thought). This coin could then be put to many good purposes, like hiring guards, launching trading expeditions, bribing templars and so forth. The merchant's unique power is in his ability to generate coin.

The growing hostility toward independent merchants is effectively turning them into a stealth class, and the changes over the past several years have been progressively crippling their ability to make coin. Furtive merchants aren't going to be able to contribute much to the game without coin or compensating skills, potentially afraid even to offer an item for sale to another PC.

As an aside, I don't believe it's reasonable for independent merchants to be a stealth class, given all the NPC merchants openly trading in the bazaars, even in market sectors that are supposed monopolies such as arms and armors (there are plenty of items that are not really core to the GMHs too, such as containers, tools and light sources). Why should small-time PC merchants draw special notice?

[Dar]

In a way. Right now, independant merchants should be 'thriving' due to IC reasons that affect the pricing and all.

[number13]

The growing hostility toward independent merchants is effectively turning them into a stealth class, and the changes over the past several years have been progressively crippling their ability to make coin.

Independent merchants can still make ridiculous amounts of money very quickly, without attracting much attention, or having to hold a warehouse worth of inventory.  Actually, just about any independent can make ridiculous amounts of money.  I think the desire for warehouses and the like isn't as much a matter of convenience as progression and reward.  Once a merchant PC has all those coins, it's natural to want to do something with them.

But coins usually don't amount to much actual value unless they are being held and used by a noble/templar/agent.  That's a good thing, but do I sympathize with people wanting to strike out the independent route. Clan life is often more restrictive without greater reward (in terms of IC wealth or RP possibilities).

That said, independently owned warehouses or workshops diffuse the player base even more. People will just end up hiding in their holes, crafting away and pack ratting an obscene amount of materials and goods, sometimes with no actual reason in mind other than the accumulation of essentially useless wealth and merchie skills.

I think the happiest situation would be to make clanned life more appealing to off-peakers, more appealing in general.

[Cutthroat]

The growing hostility toward independent merchants is effectively turning them into a stealth class, and the changes over the past several years have been progressively crippling their ability to make coin. Furtive merchants aren't going to be able to contribute much to the game without coin or compensating skills, potentially afraid even to offer an item for sale to another PC.

Don't mistake favoritism towards clanned merchants as hostility toward independent merchants. If anything, the changes brought about lately should encourage people to really work together, instead of the current ability for a merchant and hunter to split the rent for a place, and allow the hunter to gather for the merchant with minimal interaction between the two.

Sure, the whole working together thing could be done by joining a clan, but it could also just encourage more meaningful relationships between independent merchants and independent hunter/gatherers than just "leave X hides in the chest for me k thx".

And you seem to like the term ClanMud a lot, but I think most people agree that GMH merchants are supposed to be considered more successful than independent merchants. I think there should be steps taken to enforce this idea that GMH merchants are simply better than indy merchants; GMH products are simply better than indy products; and so on. I think this recent Apartment change is a strong step in that direction. The onus is on the GMH players to flaunt their status as a privileged employee of Salarr/Kadius/Kurac and show off how great their products are compared to Merchant Amos' stuff who has about as much potential as a crafter in a GMH, but prefers to keep to himself.

[Delstro]

I think the addition of warehouses would give long-lived merchants something to do. I am all for this idea as it sounds fun. I am sure there are independents of all sorts trying to get a hold of a lucrative trade niche in the virtual Armageddon. Let us bring it alive so I can prove why my character is Senior Agent, Agent, Merchant of Salarr/Kadius/Kurac. Agents never have enough to do anyways. If they can't handle an independent, they can't get promoted to Senior Agent. The one problem that I worry about, and it has happened to me before, is that when an independent is well-liked by the other characters, the law PCs seem to favor them and believe them more than they would my family member PC. The law PCs just need to remember, if it is me (A family member or ranking non-family member) against them (Independents), the law will and should always favor me over them. If you do not, I will set the wheels in motion to destroy you.

Tek animae tuae misereatur.

[LauraMars]

I like the idea of warehouses, but I think they should be very expensive, and require a minimum number of renters who are attached to it, to prove that there is a real operation going on.

[tortall]

Tek animae tuae misereatur.

For those of you that DIDN'T take latin....Tek's spirit will make you miserable.


Or something along those lines. I forget what the ACTUAL exact translation of the last word is.


P.S.
<3 Delstro for posting that.

[flurry]

I don't think you need a massive amount of storage space to have a successful indie merchant.

I don't think we're at much risk of becoming ClanMud. Indies already have great advantages in terms of the game economy, and I think this does very little to change that.

[Myrdryn]

An independent renting a warehouse, or something similar is always an option.  However because of various IC obstacles, it wouldn't be an automated system that would allow anyone with the coins to approach an NPC and rent a warehouse, similarly to how apartments now work.

[ianmartin]

IMHO, this cripples elven merchants unless you can point out a merchanting house that employs elves.  I would like to think that not everyone is a salarri or a kadian.  It gets darn frustrating trying to track down a person of one of these clans since the turnover rate is so great.  House Nenyuk in particular should be majorly excited about warehouses.  I work for a real estate company and we sell not only residential, but also commercial and industrial spaces, why should nenyuk not also offer these services.  There are perhaps  20 apartments in Tuluk that are worth the while and perhaps about 12 others that are not so nice.  Out of these, there are right now only 1 potential for storage.  So what you end up with is one character who has maybe 1 apartment in every building, thereby reducing the chance for other pc's to have their own space because they need the storage.

I say make other apartments or industrial or commercial districts.  I'd be happy to write up these rooms or areas as I have extensive experience in the industry.

[jhunter]

An independent renting a warehouse, or something similar is always an option.  However because of various IC obstacles, it wouldn't be an automated system that would allow anyone with the coins to approach an NPC and rent a warehouse, similarly to how apartments now work.

Read as: We want to be able to closely monitor independant merchants so that if they begin to become successful we can have the GMH's crush them underfoot as we believe would realistically happen. No more of this: "Damn, how did that indie merchant get going so well without the GMH's eating their brainz?"

Lol, only kidding...well...somewhat. 

[Salt Merchant]

GMH's do not have a monopoly on every saleable item in Zalanthas.

Here is a list of things that are part of GMH monopolies:
- Spice (Kurac)
- Arms and Armor for the militias (Salarr)
- Luxury clothing and goods (Kadius)

Here is a list of things that are not part of GMH monopolies:
- Tools and mining gear
- Non-luxury foods
- Non-luxury drinks
- "desert gear" in the south (Kurac can't even bother to put merchants in its 'naki pavillion)
- Light sources (candles, torches, lanterns)
- Commoner apparel (especially in Red Storm but also true elsewhere; witness all of the NPC shops)
- Packs and bags
- Non-luxury furnishings
- Arrows (a lot of hunters make these for themselves)
- Art (House Voryeki is not a GMH)
- toys and games
- Non-luxury utensils (cups, forks, knives and such)
- herbal and physicians supplies
- basically, any other necessity of commoner life

So let's please dispel the notion that an independent merchant could not grow wealthy without stepping on a GMH's toes.

[FantasyWriter]

Well said, Salt Merchant.

[musashi]

GMH's do not have a monopoly on every saleable item in Zalanthas.

Here is a list of things that are part of GMH monopolies:
- Spice (Kurac)
- Arms and Armor for the militias (Salarr)
- Luxury clothing and goods (Kadius)

Here is a list of things that are not part of GMH monopolies:
- Tools and mining gear
- Non-luxury foods
- Non-luxury drinks
- "desert gear" in the south (Kurac can't even bother to put merchants in its 'naki pavillion)
- Light sources (candles, torches, lanterns)
- Commoner apparel (especially in Red Storm but also true elsewhere; witness all of the NPC shops)
- Packs and bags
- Non-luxury furnishings
- Arrows (a lot of hunters make these for themselves)
- Art (House Voryeki is not a GMH)
- toys and games
- Non-luxury utensils (cups, forks, knives and such)
- herbal and physicians supplies
- basically, any other necessity of commoner life

So let's please dispel the notion that an independent merchant could not grow wealthy without stepping on a GMH's toes.

And yet ... what do indie merchants end up selling mostly to NPC vendors and sometimes to other PC's to turn the profits that they do?

[Lizzie]

Anyone who's played a merchant a few times  has this stuff down pat. You don't even have to think about it. Spam up a few skills, pick the "right" subguild, and you'll be making more sids  in a week than a Kadian and a Salarri agent  earn in a year, combined between the two.

That's why it's a problem. Because some players of independent merchant PCs either know, or are instructed, on exactly HOW to bilk the system for every possible sid, with the absolute least out of pocket cost. It isn't even that they know how. I know how too. It's that they do it, regularly, without regard to the fact that they -are- independent, and that theoretically, they -should- be worried that the Kadian agent is gonna rip them a new asshole when they find out. But because they know the staff doesn't support this, that the staff says "indies are not competition," these few players -know- they can do whatever they damned well please and get away with it. Theoretically, indies aren't competition. The reality is the complete opposite, because the reality is, we're not dealing only with a virtual family. We're dealing with PCs who are representing the virtual family. And if one PC of this virtual family isn't able to sell dick to anyone because an indie is sucking all the sids out of their neck of the woods, then you'd better believe this IS representative of virtual -other- indies sucking the sids out of the virtual family's turf.

[musashi]

In all fairness, I think Salt Merchant raises a decent point in that there are areas the GMH's houses do not extensively cover and that an indie PC could perhaps carve out a comfortable nitch for themselves in those areas he listed ...

But ... while we're "dispeling notions" ... you know ...

[Cutthroat]

I have to agree with musashi in that while SM is correct, I'd also love to be pointed to a independent PC that actually made a living off of selling any of the things from that comprehensive list there and be told that the majority of independent PCs were like him or her. Indeed, if you even try to make a living out of of those sorts of items, you'll be working at a loss. Lizzie's correct about the fact that the system favors players with the knowledge gained from basic trial and error and watching the markets, whose PCs can use the knowledge to their advantage.

The only current solution is roleplay, and yes, virtually, the GMHs dominate the market when it comes to anything worth having. Let's just not completely ignore that in our play and everything should go smoothly.

[ianmartin]

Let's get back to the topic at hand.  I think they wanted to know what about storerooms.  I believe that apartments are NOT the place to do it, but without coded commercial/industrial locations under heavy lock, I see no way that people can store things.

If we are forced to be a part of a clan, how can there ever be a new merchant house arising that for example sells tools or packs or the like.

The current system is stifling and does not promote growth.  This is all well for pc's that have no ambition other than to sit around a tavern and talk all day, but the rest of us really enjoy being able to branch out and go to bigger and better things.  I say growth for all, and I reiterate my willingness to design such a commercial/industrial area for people to utilize.

[Lizzie]

Some of the trouble I see, ianmartin, is stockpiling of crap. What, exactly, is the point in stockpiling 500 shards of obsidian, when you live within -walking- distance of an obsidian mine? Why would anyone -want- to stockpile 45 bunches of kindling that they ended up with after failing to make arrowshafts?

People already don't make enough use of the "junk" command as it is. It's my guess that if people stopped stockpiling shit they don't need to stockpile, and started saving smartly, there'd be enough room for pretty much everything they need.

You can see an example of poor storage management at any bar. Just type "look on bar." There's actually been times when I was unable to ROLEPLAY..putting coins ON the bar, emoting sliding them away from my space toward the other guy's space, so that he could ROLEPLAY getting them off the bar. Thus, giving some sneaking piece of shit a split-second's chance at stealing it. All because there were too many shotglasses on the bar and no room for anything else.

And that's just a bar. I've rented apartments that have come fully stocked. I've junked, in one apartment alone, over 100 pincers and scrab legs each, and still had a few dozen left over. In Allanak. Where you can find pincers and scrab legs just by walking 4 rooms away from the city gate, and never even run into combat.

I don't think there is any problem with the space we have now. I think the problem is that people stockpile crap and then bitch when they run out of room to store another 100 pincers. Here's an idea: use up what you have, run things down til you only have say, a dozen pincers. And THEN go out and get some more.

Guaranteed you won't ever have to worry about running out of room again.

[Nyr]

There is a vested interest for those in power:  they want to keep that power and that influence.  Allanak's ruling class, Tuluk's ruling class, and the GMHs have no one to answer to but each other.  Most people cannot read and write, because knowledge is power.  Magick is kept on a leash or completely eradicated in some areas, because magick is a form of power.  Psionicists are killed.  Laws don't really exist on any books because there's no point in keeping record of the laws that your citizens cannot read.  The laws change on a regular basis depending on what templar you're talking to at the time, anyway.  Taxation is handled virtually for Great Merchant Houses, and in-game at times for GMH employees.  Taxation levels vary due to different influences.  Who has the money to be taxed?  What do they have to offer to prevent their taxation into levels that would bankrupt them?  Zalanthas is a stream of corrupt powers influencing other corrupt powers, all intent on grabbing hold of whatever they can seize.  If any competitor looks too juicy, they will be attacked.  There is a history of this in Zalanthas, both politically, economically, and magickally.  A brief walk through the History page can give you an idea of that.

Given all of the above, I would surmise that most successful independents (the ones that do manage to get their own shop, or become a minor merchant house, or whatever) try to keep a low profile.  They grease the skids.  They never WILL be as big as the GMHs or the city-state powers-that-be because greasing those skids and laying low is an expensive labor in all sorts of capital.  The ones that take risks might go far--but most of them do not go far.  Most of them are killed, disappeared, or bought out.  Your mom and pop arrow seller might be independent, but they're paying far, far out the ass in taxation to the local city-state as well as the hidden costs mentioned previously--and they're probably renting the space from Nenyuk at that.

Property is never owned in Zalanthas.  You don't own shit.  Even if you're a noble, your House owns shit.  You borrow it.  Your House's Estate is owned by the local city-state.  You might have personal belongings, but those are yours only as long as they are defended by you.  If you are dead, your "stuff" isn't yours anymore, and then the strongest person gets it. Nenyuk makes a good deal of money on the shit that people think they own. People refer to their apartments as "their apartments," not "the apartment I'm renting from Nenyuk, a monopolistic Great Merchant House that could come in, take all of my shit, or kill me in my sleep, just because they have the keys." People refer to their sid as "their sid," not "this bit of black that has value because Nenyuk and everyone else says it has value, and may or may not actually exist if I go to the 'bank' to withdraw some, because they're a bunch of corrupt motherfuckers that don't care about me."

The point I'd like to make is that this game is not about being wealthy and making your own merchant house and having your own personal living quarters custom fitted to your demands.  It is about murder, corruption, and betrayal--Zalanthas is a harsh world that is full of grit, both overt and subtle.  All of the powers I mentioned are pretty damned corrupt.

Can we physically do what is suggested?  It is possible, and it would be possible to use existing code to make it happen.  However, this doesn't seem like a real problem so much as a blowfish problem--give it some time, and it will look a lot smaller than it is right now.

Would this make things easier for independent characters?  Yes, it would.  It would allow them to stockpile materials of their own independently of a merchant house or clan organization.  They would be able to generate wealth faster, employ commoner PCs, and the like.

Is the game meant to be easy for characters, independent or otherwise?  Not necessarily.  There are things that make things easier on players, like names, bulletin boards, the GDB (ha), and the request tool (other things, too).  Making it easier for (independent) characters to become wealthy is not the intent of this game.

Does this make sense for Zalanthas at this point in time?  No, it doesn't.  You have a certain amount of room to work in within the current system.  (If you feel that something is wacky in your apartment, Morgenes has kindly mentioned that you can e-mail on this.)

Hopefully, that explains some of the reasoning behind the decision to not pursue this on a widespread coded basis.

An independent renting a warehouse, or something similar is always an option.  However because of various IC obstacles, it wouldn't be an automated system that would allow anyone with the coins to approach an NPC and rent a warehouse, similarly to how apartments now work.

[ianmartin]

@Lizzie, how can you possibly define what is crap, besides from the kindling of course, if I want to make 500 arrows, then I need 500 shards of obsidian.

If I have an order from a merchant house to provide 2000 pincers, then I need room for 2000 pincers.  The point here is that it's stifling to those who are independent and that discourages growth in the long run.  As far as I see it, why not make a merchant house pickable from the main menu, that way we can eliminate this hassle?

Other than that, it SCREWS elves as there is not a GMH that will hire them.  I'd like to own my own shop one day, but since I can only store one log and one bahamet shell, the plans are out the window.  However, it makes no difference to those that are perennial merchant housed personnel.   

BTW, we need more apartments period.

[Salt Merchant]

The point I'd like to make is that this game is not about being wealthy and making your own merchant house and having your own personal living quarters custom fitted to your demands.  It is about murder, corruption, and betrayal--Zalanthas is a harsh world that is full of grit, both overt and subtle.  All of the powers I mentioned are pretty damned corrupt.

So, in essence:

Destruction achievement is supported.

Construction achievement is virtually impossible because it changes things and all the powers are about maintaining the status quo. We can't see the like of House Kohmar or the gypsies again except in exceedingly rare cases (basically the genesis of a new LoD with all of the charisma, time, incredible patience and drive that requires).

I find this disappointingly restrictive, but since most people seem content, I'll let it go.

[Salt Merchant]

People already don't make enough use of the "junk" command as it is. It's my guess that if people stopped stockpiling shit they don't need to stockpile, and started saving smartly, there'd be enough room for pretty much everything they need.

From what I've seen, it's the clan storerooms that are the real problem in that regard.

Individuals die and the new tenants of apartments generally do some house cleaning, ridding themselves of things that are useless to them. In clan storerooms, things just tend to accumulate since there is no owner except the clan, leaving individuals afraid to toss anything out in case it might be useful to some obscure person in the future.

[Nyr]

If you want to make 500 arrows and need 500 shards of obsidian, you can store as many as you can fit in your apartment and make them in smaller orders.  That's an unrealistic amount for an individual independent merchant to be working on at one time anyway, and I don't think it really helps with discussion on this matter to put unrealistic numbers up.
If you have an order from a merchant house to provide 2000 pincers, you should work out storage with that merchant house for those 2000 pincers (and for that matter, ask them why they're hiring you to do it since they have their own employees).  That's an unreasonable amount for an individual independent merchant to be collecting as well.
City-elves are hard to play.  They aren't allowed to be a direct part of most merchant house activities due to their nature as thieves and wanderers.  Too risky to employ those shifty bastards. 
Apartments are a limited resource, but there are a few complexes in nearly every city-state.  I found two almost completely-unused apartment complexes in both city-states.  (Yes, they were in the poorer or "less desirable" areas; no, they were not limited by clan.)  Two almost empty complexes in Tuluk, two in Allanak.  (Elementalists should probably use the complexes intended for them in their quarter, but that's neither here nor there.)

So, in essence:

Destruction achievement is supported.

Construction achievement is virtually impossible because it changes things and all the powers are about maintaining the status quo. We can't see the like of House Kohmar or the gypsies again except in exceedingly rare cases (basically the genesis of a new LoD with all of the charisma, time, incredible patience and drive that requires).

I find this disappointingly restrictive, but since most people seem content, I'll let it go.

On the contrary.  I was using all of that to explain why easily accessible public warehouse options for independent PCs would be unlikely, IC.

Reposting a segment, emphasis mine:

Given all of the above, I would surmise that most successful independents (the ones that do manage to get their own shop, or become a minor merchant house, or whatever) try to keep a low profile.  They grease the skids.  They never WILL be as big as the GMHs or the city-state powers-that-be because greasing those skids and laying low is an expensive labor in all sorts of capital.  The ones that take risks might go far--but most of them do not go far.  Most of them are killed, disappeared, or bought out.  Your mom and pop arrow seller might be independent, but they're paying far, far out the ass in taxation to the local city-state as well as the hidden costs mentioned previously--and they're probably renting the space from Nenyuk at that.

There is always the opportunity for construction achievement.  I'm explaining why it's not easy.  You can take that as "impossible" if you'd like to, and you can even take it as "virtually impossible," since the virtual environment is the environment that most fits the documentation, status quo, and common social mores.

[Salt Merchant]

I'm explaining why it's not easy.  You can take that as "impossible" if you'd like to..

Impossible in the sense that I believe there are few players indeed with the necessary combination of qualities to see it through. For the rest, it's "impossible".

In my case, for example, I just don't have the charisma needed. Some qualities, a character can possess without the player necessarily needing them. Charisma isn't one of them, so my characters are never going to be charismatic. This means they will never be able to get their ducks lined in a row, no matter what level of effort and intent I put into them.

Other people just aren't interested in constructive achievement, or don't have the patience and drive, or don't have the ability to survive long enough, or whatever.

[Myrdryn]

I'm explaining why it's not easy.  You can take that as "impossible" if you'd like to..

Impossible in the sense that I believe there are few players indeed with the necessary combination of qualities to see it through. For the rest, it's "impossible".

In my case, for example, I just don't have the charisma needed. Some qualities, a character can possess without the player necessarily needing them. Charisma isn't one of them, so my characters are never going to be charismatic. This means they will never be able to get their ducks lined in a row, no matter what level of effort and intent I put into them.

Other people just aren't interested in constructive achievement, or don't have the patience and drive, or don't have the ability to survive long enough, or whatever.

If someone is trying to do something like build their own merchant house, all alone, it probably is impossible.  Most groups have some kind of backer, either of the financial or political sorts.  And you're also right in that it does take a long time.  Staff generally want to make sure their efforts won't be wasted because the person/people they're assisting aren't dead soon after and all their work was for not.

But this is something staff likes to do for players, however it isn't often that people have what it takes.  I think that just makes it all the more extraordinary when it does happen.

For anyone that wants to attempt something like this.  My suggestions would be to keep staff in the loop, ask for advice if you need it and try to find powerful allies that can help you.

[MarshallDFX]

Respectfully submitted, it seems like a bit of an overzealous leap of logic for me.

I can now only store two chests in my apartment  =>  Being and independent merchant is now impossible.

[Synthesis]

Yeah, I don't see how anyone expects to store junk in their apartment, anyway.

As I've often lamented, everything worth more than 10 'sid seems to go missing within a week's time, unless you've managed to rent one of the apartments that only uber-burglars can even attempt to break in to.

As far as I'm concerned, the #1 perk of being in a merchant/noble House is the availability of lockers and chests to store your hard-won loot in a location that's orders of magnitude more secure than all but the most expensive of apartments.

[ianmartin]

I know the feeling

[musashi]

Other than that, it SCREWS elves as there is not a GMH that will hire them.

Just wanted to point out that this is not true. There is a GHM that will hire them ... please find out IC.

[Cutthroat]

Other than that, it SCREWS elves as there is not a GMH that will hire them.

Just wanted to point out that this is not true. There is a GHM that will hire them ... please find out IC.

Theoretically, all of them could hire them, there's nothing wrong with the actual act of hiring an elf - perhaps some family members would do this more openly than others, but hey, such is the life of an elf.

[FuSoYa]

Other than that, it SCREWS elves as there is not a GMH that will hire them.

Just wanted to point out that this is not true. There is a GHM that will hire them ... please find out IC.

Theoretically, all of them could hire them, there's nothing wrong with the actual act of hiring an elf - perhaps some family members would do this more openly than others, but hey, such is the life of an elf.

When/if I played a GMH family member you better bet your sweet ass I wouldn't hire no thievin' necker.

Brandon

[Cutthroat]

Other than that, it SCREWS elves as there is not a GMH that will hire them.

Just wanted to point out that this is not true. There is a GHM that will hire them ... please find out IC.

Theoretically, all of them could hire them, there's nothing wrong with the actual act of hiring an elf - perhaps some family members would do this more openly than others, but hey, such is the life of an elf.

When/if I played a GMH family member you better bet your sweet ass I wouldn't hire no thievin' necker.

Brandon

Perhaps most wouldn't, but there is an NPC elf with open employment in at least one GMH, and there have been PC elves in the other GMHs in history. Just saying that elves are totally not screwed.

[musashi]

Other than that, it SCREWS elves as there is not a GMH that will hire them.

Just wanted to point out that this is not true. There is a GHM that will hire them ... please find out IC.

Theoretically, all of them could hire them, there's nothing wrong with the actual act of hiring an elf - perhaps some family members would do this more openly than others, but hey, such is the life of an elf.

When/if I played a GMH family member you better bet your sweet ass I wouldn't hire no thievin' necker.

Brandon

From what I've seen there are GMH's that say blatantly in the docs that they will not hire elves ... and then ... there are GMH's that say quite clearly in the doc's that they will hire elves, even going so far as to work out different training routines for them in light of the fact that they insist on walking everywhere.

It should be pretty obvious which House is cool with hiring on elves I would think ... but yeah, I'll leave it to be discovered in game.

[FuSoYa]

Yea I was just BSing... sorry guys.

Brandon 

[Cutthroat]

It's alright. Probably best to end this derail anyway!

My final thoughts on actual warehouses: I admit that I like the idea for the setting we will apparently see in Arm2, where there will be greater freedoms to start a group from scratch, but it's simply not suited for the current game. There are problems with it being put into the current game that involve player distribution (people will break down into even -more- groups than we already have), unbalanced wealth (indies are already better off financially than their clanned equivalents, most of the time), and the status of property (Nyr talked about that already).

The problem is probably not a coded problem (would it be so hard to change "a one-room apartment for 250 obsidian coins" to "a one-room warehouse for 2500 obsidian coins"?). The problem is that placing warehouses into Arm is like trying to jam a puzzle piece in the wrong place.

Maybe we could discuss how warehouses could be implemented in Arm2 instead of talking about how it can't be in Arm1.

[Delstro]

The only real reason I want to see warehouses and storage rooms is it gives the Templars, Nobles, and GMH family something to aim at. It often doesn't make much sense to take aim at random PC merchant because most of the money they make does not involve PCs. If this independent merchant had a storage room or warehouse, it would obviously mean they are making deals without being taxed by the Templars, controlled by the Nobles, and destroyed the the GMHs. It would give my Templars and nobles a sure fire way to make money. My Agent a surefire way to impress the Senior Agent. Otherwise, it feels like I am being a twink if I am harassing an indie merchant. Give me something to do that doesn't involve pleasing the populace so they will buy from me. Give me the ability to smash the enemy in non-combat ways.

[Rotten]

I would like to echo Nyr's comments and contradict them.

There is no corruption in Zalanthas, as there is no single, absolute standard of law or morality.  There is no legally recognized property in Zalanthas because ownership is determined by what you can take and hold by force, and the god-kings and their primary enforcers, the templars, are unassailable.  There is no moral corruption in Zalanthas because there is no religion.

The city-states enforce an artificial competition in the form of nobility and the Great Merchant Houses.  In essence, they place a few on top to keep everyone from trying to punch, kick, and bite their way to the top.  It's a form of peace.

If you want inalienable rights, make a rebel, fight for these fictitious things that can only last in a more stable society, and get killed.  Simple as that.  I think a few of you have been too tainted by free markets and capitalism to realize that some of what you ask just isn't feasible.

I would suggest that the nobles, templars, and merchant house family get more resources in the form of property under their control.  So long as the players in charge are given the ability to set up access to these resources, I don't think it's so much a strain on the staff beyond the initial start of this system.

[mansa]

The only real reason I want to see warehouses and storage rooms is it gives the Templars, Nobles, and GMH family something to aim at. It often doesn't make much sense to take aim at random PC merchant because most of the money they make does not involve PCs. If this independent merchant had a storage room or warehouse, it would obviously mean they are making deals without being taxed by the Templars, controlled by the Nobles, and destroyed the the GMHs. It would give my Templars and nobles a sure fire way to make money. My Agent a surefire way to impress the Senior Agent. Otherwise, it feels like I am being a twink if I am harassing an indie merchant. Give me something to do that doesn't involve pleasing the populace so they will buy from me. Give me the ability to smash the enemy in non-combat ways.

The ability to block 'selling to NPCs' of a specific clan?

oooooo

I'd pay big money for that.

[musashi]

There is no corruption in Zalanthas, as there is no single, absolute standard of law or morality.  There is no legally recognized property in Zalanthas because ownership is determined by what you can take and hold by force, and the god-kings and their primary enforcers, the templars, are unassailable.  There is no moral corruption in Zalanthas because there is no religion.

I'm ... not really sure what you're trying to get at here.

Are you trying to say that in the real world, we have a single, absolute standard of law or morality? Or are you suggesting that we don't actually have corruption in the real world either because we don't have a single, absolute standard of law or morality?

That whole bit seemed rather nonsensical to me, because it seemed like you were trying to compare human behavior in Zalanthas to human behavior in real life and somehow point out a different ... that ... well ... simply isn't there.

A bit off topic though. I just got confused trying to take that in and make sense of it because ... it should be glaringly obvious that we have corruption in the real world, while also having no absolute moral standard. And since the most "stable" countries in the real world (the ones with the lowest levels of murder ... underage pregnancy ... ect) also happen to be the most secular ... I was having trouble seeing the religion tie in to morality as well.

[Zoltan]

I think what Rotten means, Musashi, is that in many societies we -are- socialized about what's "right" and "wrong", though that is often brushed aside by the corrupt. There seems to be very little in the higher ideals department on Zalanthas. This of course is just referencing moral corruption and hypocrisy.

[RogueGunslinger]

There is no legally recognized property in Zalanthas because ownership is determined by what you can take and hold by force, and the god-kings and their primary enforcers, the templars, are unassailable.  There is no moral corruption in Zalanthas because there is no religion.

There's no Moral corruption in Zalanthas because there's no such thing as right and wrong. Only "what's right for me?"

Morals and religion don't go hand in hand. It's easy to keep a set of ideals that are (mis)guided by superstition and fear created all on your own.

[musashi]

Well, from a strictly scientific point of view there would have to be morals to allow for the society to survive. Things like ... the birthrate has to be greater than the death rate, so murder has to be amoral. If the death rate overtakes the birth rate, the society ends.

But as fun as talking about that would be ... this is sort of a derail. Sorry about that!

[Delstro]

You could move all that to another thread. You are degrading the efforts to get this thread into the productive stage.

My bottom line:
I want to be the hammer that smashes independent dreams. This would allow some to prosper, some to fail, and all independent merchants to be used to destroy my enemies. It would also provide goals for long lived merchant PCs, because (Being honest here.) after a while, there isn't much to do that you havn't done as a merchant.

[Is Friday]

There is no legally recognized property in Zalanthas because ownership is determined by what you can take and hold by force, and the god-kings and their primary enforcers, the templars, are unassailable.  There is no moral corruption in Zalanthas because there is no religion.

There's no Moral corruption in Zalanthas because there's no such thing as right and wrong. Only "what's right for me?"

Morals and religion don't go hand in hand. It's easy to keep a set of ideals that are (mis)guided by superstition and fear created all on your own.

I had a character recently that a lot of people said was a "good man".

[My 2 sids]

Judging by some of the "well of course it'd be IC for the GMH to squelch any and all independents"  than I guess I'll special app an elite assasin so I can be hired by the GMH to kill off each and every other NPC merchant (damn that breed flaunting a tent selling her 10-sid salt jewlery!).    Better yet, let's just get rid of ALL "bazzar" areas all together --  Just have one big strip mall of GMHs!   

ICly entire families (not just two people) can occupy an appartment and ICly even folks hawking their wares from a mat probably have a draw in some crampt little apartment where they can craft their 0.0000001% of the economy.   Yes or No?

If you want to make it IC that there is _any_ other merchant besides GMH; than make it playable for PCs. 

[a strange shadow]

It's playable. You just can't cram a warehouse full of goods into an apartment room. Players are packrats. Sell what you don't need, and if you don't have much room left for craftables... use up what you've got until you need to make a resource run. I really don't see the "unplayability" here.

That said, I do agree that apartment room capacities should be raised a bit, or at least varied, so that those large apartment rooms can hold more than the small, cramped rat-holes... and that a look should be taken at how much space is taken up by furniture. The problem with room capacities as they are is that though furniture only has a certain bulk, its weight can cause it to take up far more "room" than it should, e.g. obsidian couches.

[Lizzie]

Which "well of course it'd be IC for the GMH to squelch any and all independents" posts are you referring to My2Sids? Because, I haven't seen any posts suggesting such extremes. I've seen some posts - including my own, suggesting that independent PCs that pose a threat to the profits of a GMH pc, should expect some kind of IC consequences for becoming -that- successful. I've seen several posts, including my own, suggesting that most of those NPCs in the markeplaces are either part of the GMH setup, or are -not- in competition with them. Such as, the feather jewelry girl in Freil's Rest. She's no competition to Kadius, because Kadius doesn't manufacture feather jewelry for sale. Nor do they manufacture crappy clothing, or isilt jewelry, or scrub gear, or even bows and arrows, for sale. They -have- a bow that they provide, but it isn't made by Kadius. It's for sale as a courtesy to hunters. So again - there is no competition to the shops. There IS, however, competition between independent PCs and clanned PCs. So if my Kadian Master Crafter Merchant learns that you, an independent clothworker from the Warrens, are getting orders from noble PCs for master clothing items, and those nobles are not buying from me, then yeah. You're competition. And yeah, I have the family clout to do something about it. And yeah, it would be 100% appropriate and IC and even expected, to do something about it.

Furthermore, that expectation should come from you, and the noble who asked for that master crafter item. You should -both- be concerned that you might get caught, and disappear, and the noble not get his creamy-white sun-emblazoned green-embroidered silk collar with goudra tails hanging down from the ends. Tacky as his order is, he should know that NOT getting it from Kadius, is a snub to Kadius, and Kadius as a House has a LOT more clout than he has as a PC.

[FantasyWriter]

I've had several successful crafters who neither were a part of a GMH nor owned an apartment.

I don't see how amassing piles of materials=profit?
I do see how amassing piles of materials would be good for spamcrafting, though.

Buy/gather the materials you need, work them, then sell them.
Also, I would like to see more guild-merchant's who focused ICly on one crafting tree instead of tryng to master everything.
IRL, I don't know that many weaponssmith/armorsmith/jeweler/sculptor/tailor/weaver/carpenters, but heh.. I don't get out much.

[Xagon]

The only problem I see as far as stockpiling materials go is, sometimes, you -need- all of them.

1000 is a bit much, but it'd make sense to have ten of each kind of crafting material, along with the right tools.

Not everyone has all that OOC crafting experience and knows how to make that item of awesomeness requiring five obscure materials.

[Erythil]

The growing hostility toward independent merchants is effectively turning them into a stealth class, and the changes over the past several years have been progressively crippling their ability to make coin.

Independent merchants can still make ridiculous amounts of money very quickly, without attracting much attention, or having to hold a warehouse worth of inventory.  Actually, just about any independent can make ridiculous amounts of money. 

This.

I made an independent merchant, very recently, as my first character, and I had absolutely no trouble making very large amounts of money with minimal PC sponsorship.  There is a tradeoff you make:  In return for having no quotas, no boss, and keeping all the profits, you can't keep nearly as many goods on hand.

All this means is a quick turnover rate.  I.E., instead of stockpiling goods, you acquire raw materials, craft them immediately, and sell the results immediately.  I thought this made a certain amount of sense, but certain people seemed shocked ICly that my apartment wasn't bursting at the seams with mountains of stuff.

Before that, in fact, I was paranoid that my rather modest stockpile of goods was going to make my apartment collapse.


Renting small stock rooms sounds exactly like the sort of service Nenyuk might provide in the big cities, seeing as how they already charge a nominal fee for the use of their vaults.  People worried about this somehow neutering the merchant houses should remember that merchant houses have access to a vast number of crafts that independents can NEVER learn.  Their special advantage is hard-coded into the game.  And as said before, this creates interesting new RP for thieves.

I also think there should be a few more IC apartments.  As it stands, it seems very difficult to get any room whatsoever, large room notwithstanding.

[My 2 sids]

I'm surprised that folks don't consider the idea of rented warehouses as fitting in game (esp. the big cities)

How many have (or have had) PCs whose background states they were crammed in some ramshackle hovel w/ nine other people?  Why?  Because life is expensive!  Likewise, I would think having a 12' x 12' "work house" space shared between 3 - 5 crafters/ merchants would make perfect IC sense.    Even a small group of independents wouldn't make a dent in established GMH filled with thousands of employees w/ pockets as deep or deeper than some nobility!



Here's something else to consider:  How abrupt will the switch to Arm.2 be? It seems to me that making small tweaks to the game like this will help transition to a more player-run game.