Apartment Questions (from ATS)

[ianmartin]

IMHO, this cripples elven merchants unless you can point out a merchanting house that employs elves.  I would like to think that not everyone is a salarri or a kadian.  It gets darn frustrating trying to track down a person of one of these clans since the turnover rate is so great.  House Nenyuk in particular should be majorly excited about warehouses.  I work for a real estate company and we sell not only residential, but also commercial and industrial spaces, why should nenyuk not also offer these services.  There are perhaps  20 apartments in Tuluk that are worth the while and perhaps about 12 others that are not so nice.  Out of these, there are right now only 1 potential for storage.  So what you end up with is one character who has maybe 1 apartment in every building, thereby reducing the chance for other pc's to have their own space because they need the storage.

I say make other apartments or industrial or commercial districts.  I'd be happy to write up these rooms or areas as I have extensive experience in the industry.

[jhunter]

An independent renting a warehouse, or something similar is always an option.  However because of various IC obstacles, it wouldn't be an automated system that would allow anyone with the coins to approach an NPC and rent a warehouse, similarly to how apartments now work.

Read as: We want to be able to closely monitor independant merchants so that if they begin to become successful we can have the GMH's crush them underfoot as we believe would realistically happen. No more of this: "Damn, how did that indie merchant get going so well without the GMH's eating their brainz?"

Lol, only kidding...well...somewhat. 

[Salt Merchant]

GMH's do not have a monopoly on every saleable item in Zalanthas.

Here is a list of things that are part of GMH monopolies:
- Spice (Kurac)
- Arms and Armor for the militias (Salarr)
- Luxury clothing and goods (Kadius)

Here is a list of things that are not part of GMH monopolies:
- Tools and mining gear
- Non-luxury foods
- Non-luxury drinks
- "desert gear" in the south (Kurac can't even bother to put merchants in its 'naki pavillion)
- Light sources (candles, torches, lanterns)
- Commoner apparel (especially in Red Storm but also true elsewhere; witness all of the NPC shops)
- Packs and bags
- Non-luxury furnishings
- Arrows (a lot of hunters make these for themselves)
- Art (House Voryeki is not a GMH)
- toys and games
- Non-luxury utensils (cups, forks, knives and such)
- herbal and physicians supplies
- basically, any other necessity of commoner life

So let's please dispel the notion that an independent merchant could not grow wealthy without stepping on a GMH's toes.

[FantasyWriter]

Well said, Salt Merchant.

[musashi]

GMH's do not have a monopoly on every saleable item in Zalanthas.

Here is a list of things that are part of GMH monopolies:
- Spice (Kurac)
- Arms and Armor for the militias (Salarr)
- Luxury clothing and goods (Kadius)

Here is a list of things that are not part of GMH monopolies:
- Tools and mining gear
- Non-luxury foods
- Non-luxury drinks
- "desert gear" in the south (Kurac can't even bother to put merchants in its 'naki pavillion)
- Light sources (candles, torches, lanterns)
- Commoner apparel (especially in Red Storm but also true elsewhere; witness all of the NPC shops)
- Packs and bags
- Non-luxury furnishings
- Arrows (a lot of hunters make these for themselves)
- Art (House Voryeki is not a GMH)
- toys and games
- Non-luxury utensils (cups, forks, knives and such)
- herbal and physicians supplies
- basically, any other necessity of commoner life

So let's please dispel the notion that an independent merchant could not grow wealthy without stepping on a GMH's toes.

And yet ... what do indie merchants end up selling mostly to NPC vendors and sometimes to other PC's to turn the profits that they do?

[Lizzie]

Anyone who's played a merchant a few times  has this stuff down pat. You don't even have to think about it. Spam up a few skills, pick the "right" subguild, and you'll be making more sids  in a week than a Kadian and a Salarri agent  earn in a year, combined between the two.

That's why it's a problem. Because some players of independent merchant PCs either know, or are instructed, on exactly HOW to bilk the system for every possible sid, with the absolute least out of pocket cost. It isn't even that they know how. I know how too. It's that they do it, regularly, without regard to the fact that they -are- independent, and that theoretically, they -should- be worried that the Kadian agent is gonna rip them a new asshole when they find out. But because they know the staff doesn't support this, that the staff says "indies are not competition," these few players -know- they can do whatever they damned well please and get away with it. Theoretically, indies aren't competition. The reality is the complete opposite, because the reality is, we're not dealing only with a virtual family. We're dealing with PCs who are representing the virtual family. And if one PC of this virtual family isn't able to sell dick to anyone because an indie is sucking all the sids out of their neck of the woods, then you'd better believe this IS representative of virtual -other- indies sucking the sids out of the virtual family's turf.

[musashi]

In all fairness, I think Salt Merchant raises a decent point in that there are areas the GMH's houses do not extensively cover and that an indie PC could perhaps carve out a comfortable nitch for themselves in those areas he listed ...

But ... while we're "dispeling notions" ... you know ...

[Cutthroat]

I have to agree with musashi in that while SM is correct, I'd also love to be pointed to a independent PC that actually made a living off of selling any of the things from that comprehensive list there and be told that the majority of independent PCs were like him or her. Indeed, if you even try to make a living out of of those sorts of items, you'll be working at a loss. Lizzie's correct about the fact that the system favors players with the knowledge gained from basic trial and error and watching the markets, whose PCs can use the knowledge to their advantage.

The only current solution is roleplay, and yes, virtually, the GMHs dominate the market when it comes to anything worth having. Let's just not completely ignore that in our play and everything should go smoothly.

[ianmartin]

Let's get back to the topic at hand.  I think they wanted to know what about storerooms.  I believe that apartments are NOT the place to do it, but without coded commercial/industrial locations under heavy lock, I see no way that people can store things.

If we are forced to be a part of a clan, how can there ever be a new merchant house arising that for example sells tools or packs or the like.

The current system is stifling and does not promote growth.  This is all well for pc's that have no ambition other than to sit around a tavern and talk all day, but the rest of us really enjoy being able to branch out and go to bigger and better things.  I say growth for all, and I reiterate my willingness to design such a commercial/industrial area for people to utilize.

[Lizzie]

Some of the trouble I see, ianmartin, is stockpiling of crap. What, exactly, is the point in stockpiling 500 shards of obsidian, when you live within -walking- distance of an obsidian mine? Why would anyone -want- to stockpile 45 bunches of kindling that they ended up with after failing to make arrowshafts?

People already don't make enough use of the "junk" command as it is. It's my guess that if people stopped stockpiling shit they don't need to stockpile, and started saving smartly, there'd be enough room for pretty much everything they need.

You can see an example of poor storage management at any bar. Just type "look on bar." There's actually been times when I was unable to ROLEPLAY..putting coins ON the bar, emoting sliding them away from my space toward the other guy's space, so that he could ROLEPLAY getting them off the bar. Thus, giving some sneaking piece of shit a split-second's chance at stealing it. All because there were too many shotglasses on the bar and no room for anything else.

And that's just a bar. I've rented apartments that have come fully stocked. I've junked, in one apartment alone, over 100 pincers and scrab legs each, and still had a few dozen left over. In Allanak. Where you can find pincers and scrab legs just by walking 4 rooms away from the city gate, and never even run into combat.

I don't think there is any problem with the space we have now. I think the problem is that people stockpile crap and then bitch when they run out of room to store another 100 pincers. Here's an idea: use up what you have, run things down til you only have say, a dozen pincers. And THEN go out and get some more.

Guaranteed you won't ever have to worry about running out of room again.

[Nyr]

There is a vested interest for those in power:  they want to keep that power and that influence.  Allanak's ruling class, Tuluk's ruling class, and the GMHs have no one to answer to but each other.  Most people cannot read and write, because knowledge is power.  Magick is kept on a leash or completely eradicated in some areas, because magick is a form of power.  Psionicists are killed.  Laws don't really exist on any books because there's no point in keeping record of the laws that your citizens cannot read.  The laws change on a regular basis depending on what templar you're talking to at the time, anyway.  Taxation is handled virtually for Great Merchant Houses, and in-game at times for GMH employees.  Taxation levels vary due to different influences.  Who has the money to be taxed?  What do they have to offer to prevent their taxation into levels that would bankrupt them?  Zalanthas is a stream of corrupt powers influencing other corrupt powers, all intent on grabbing hold of whatever they can seize.  If any competitor looks too juicy, they will be attacked.  There is a history of this in Zalanthas, both politically, economically, and magickally.  A brief walk through the History page can give you an idea of that.

Given all of the above, I would surmise that most successful independents (the ones that do manage to get their own shop, or become a minor merchant house, or whatever) try to keep a low profile.  They grease the skids.  They never WILL be as big as the GMHs or the city-state powers-that-be because greasing those skids and laying low is an expensive labor in all sorts of capital.  The ones that take risks might go far--but most of them do not go far.  Most of them are killed, disappeared, or bought out.  Your mom and pop arrow seller might be independent, but they're paying far, far out the ass in taxation to the local city-state as well as the hidden costs mentioned previously--and they're probably renting the space from Nenyuk at that.

Property is never owned in Zalanthas.  You don't own shit.  Even if you're a noble, your House owns shit.  You borrow it.  Your House's Estate is owned by the local city-state.  You might have personal belongings, but those are yours only as long as they are defended by you.  If you are dead, your "stuff" isn't yours anymore, and then the strongest person gets it. Nenyuk makes a good deal of money on the shit that people think they own. People refer to their apartments as "their apartments," not "the apartment I'm renting from Nenyuk, a monopolistic Great Merchant House that could come in, take all of my shit, or kill me in my sleep, just because they have the keys." People refer to their sid as "their sid," not "this bit of black that has value because Nenyuk and everyone else says it has value, and may or may not actually exist if I go to the 'bank' to withdraw some, because they're a bunch of corrupt motherfuckers that don't care about me."

The point I'd like to make is that this game is not about being wealthy and making your own merchant house and having your own personal living quarters custom fitted to your demands.  It is about murder, corruption, and betrayal--Zalanthas is a harsh world that is full of grit, both overt and subtle.  All of the powers I mentioned are pretty damned corrupt.

Can we physically do what is suggested?  It is possible, and it would be possible to use existing code to make it happen.  However, this doesn't seem like a real problem so much as a blowfish problem--give it some time, and it will look a lot smaller than it is right now.

Would this make things easier for independent characters?  Yes, it would.  It would allow them to stockpile materials of their own independently of a merchant house or clan organization.  They would be able to generate wealth faster, employ commoner PCs, and the like.

Is the game meant to be easy for characters, independent or otherwise?  Not necessarily.  There are things that make things easier on players, like names, bulletin boards, the GDB (ha), and the request tool (other things, too).  Making it easier for (independent) characters to become wealthy is not the intent of this game.

Does this make sense for Zalanthas at this point in time?  No, it doesn't.  You have a certain amount of room to work in within the current system.  (If you feel that something is wacky in your apartment, Morgenes has kindly mentioned that you can e-mail on this.)

Hopefully, that explains some of the reasoning behind the decision to not pursue this on a widespread coded basis.

An independent renting a warehouse, or something similar is always an option.  However because of various IC obstacles, it wouldn't be an automated system that would allow anyone with the coins to approach an NPC and rent a warehouse, similarly to how apartments now work.

[ianmartin]

@Lizzie, how can you possibly define what is crap, besides from the kindling of course, if I want to make 500 arrows, then I need 500 shards of obsidian.

If I have an order from a merchant house to provide 2000 pincers, then I need room for 2000 pincers.  The point here is that it's stifling to those who are independent and that discourages growth in the long run.  As far as I see it, why not make a merchant house pickable from the main menu, that way we can eliminate this hassle?

Other than that, it SCREWS elves as there is not a GMH that will hire them.  I'd like to own my own shop one day, but since I can only store one log and one bahamet shell, the plans are out the window.  However, it makes no difference to those that are perennial merchant housed personnel.   

BTW, we need more apartments period.

[Salt Merchant]

The point I'd like to make is that this game is not about being wealthy and making your own merchant house and having your own personal living quarters custom fitted to your demands.  It is about murder, corruption, and betrayal--Zalanthas is a harsh world that is full of grit, both overt and subtle.  All of the powers I mentioned are pretty damned corrupt.

So, in essence:

Destruction achievement is supported.

Construction achievement is virtually impossible because it changes things and all the powers are about maintaining the status quo. We can't see the like of House Kohmar or the gypsies again except in exceedingly rare cases (basically the genesis of a new LoD with all of the charisma, time, incredible patience and drive that requires).

I find this disappointingly restrictive, but since most people seem content, I'll let it go.

[Salt Merchant]

People already don't make enough use of the "junk" command as it is. It's my guess that if people stopped stockpiling shit they don't need to stockpile, and started saving smartly, there'd be enough room for pretty much everything they need.

From what I've seen, it's the clan storerooms that are the real problem in that regard.

Individuals die and the new tenants of apartments generally do some house cleaning, ridding themselves of things that are useless to them. In clan storerooms, things just tend to accumulate since there is no owner except the clan, leaving individuals afraid to toss anything out in case it might be useful to some obscure person in the future.

[Nyr]

If you want to make 500 arrows and need 500 shards of obsidian, you can store as many as you can fit in your apartment and make them in smaller orders.  That's an unrealistic amount for an individual independent merchant to be working on at one time anyway, and I don't think it really helps with discussion on this matter to put unrealistic numbers up.
If you have an order from a merchant house to provide 2000 pincers, you should work out storage with that merchant house for those 2000 pincers (and for that matter, ask them why they're hiring you to do it since they have their own employees).  That's an unreasonable amount for an individual independent merchant to be collecting as well.
City-elves are hard to play.  They aren't allowed to be a direct part of most merchant house activities due to their nature as thieves and wanderers.  Too risky to employ those shifty bastards. 
Apartments are a limited resource, but there are a few complexes in nearly every city-state.  I found two almost completely-unused apartment complexes in both city-states.  (Yes, they were in the poorer or "less desirable" areas; no, they were not limited by clan.)  Two almost empty complexes in Tuluk, two in Allanak.  (Elementalists should probably use the complexes intended for them in their quarter, but that's neither here nor there.)

So, in essence:

Destruction achievement is supported.

Construction achievement is virtually impossible because it changes things and all the powers are about maintaining the status quo. We can't see the like of House Kohmar or the gypsies again except in exceedingly rare cases (basically the genesis of a new LoD with all of the charisma, time, incredible patience and drive that requires).

I find this disappointingly restrictive, but since most people seem content, I'll let it go.

On the contrary.  I was using all of that to explain why easily accessible public warehouse options for independent PCs would be unlikely, IC.

Reposting a segment, emphasis mine:

Given all of the above, I would surmise that most successful independents (the ones that do manage to get their own shop, or become a minor merchant house, or whatever) try to keep a low profile.  They grease the skids.  They never WILL be as big as the GMHs or the city-state powers-that-be because greasing those skids and laying low is an expensive labor in all sorts of capital.  The ones that take risks might go far--but most of them do not go far.  Most of them are killed, disappeared, or bought out.  Your mom and pop arrow seller might be independent, but they're paying far, far out the ass in taxation to the local city-state as well as the hidden costs mentioned previously--and they're probably renting the space from Nenyuk at that.

There is always the opportunity for construction achievement.  I'm explaining why it's not easy.  You can take that as "impossible" if you'd like to, and you can even take it as "virtually impossible," since the virtual environment is the environment that most fits the documentation, status quo, and common social mores.

[Salt Merchant]

I'm explaining why it's not easy.  You can take that as "impossible" if you'd like to..

Impossible in the sense that I believe there are few players indeed with the necessary combination of qualities to see it through. For the rest, it's "impossible".

In my case, for example, I just don't have the charisma needed. Some qualities, a character can possess without the player necessarily needing them. Charisma isn't one of them, so my characters are never going to be charismatic. This means they will never be able to get their ducks lined in a row, no matter what level of effort and intent I put into them.

Other people just aren't interested in constructive achievement, or don't have the patience and drive, or don't have the ability to survive long enough, or whatever.

[Myrdryn]

I'm explaining why it's not easy.  You can take that as "impossible" if you'd like to..

Impossible in the sense that I believe there are few players indeed with the necessary combination of qualities to see it through. For the rest, it's "impossible".

In my case, for example, I just don't have the charisma needed. Some qualities, a character can possess without the player necessarily needing them. Charisma isn't one of them, so my characters are never going to be charismatic. This means they will never be able to get their ducks lined in a row, no matter what level of effort and intent I put into them.

Other people just aren't interested in constructive achievement, or don't have the patience and drive, or don't have the ability to survive long enough, or whatever.

If someone is trying to do something like build their own merchant house, all alone, it probably is impossible.  Most groups have some kind of backer, either of the financial or political sorts.  And you're also right in that it does take a long time.  Staff generally want to make sure their efforts won't be wasted because the person/people they're assisting aren't dead soon after and all their work was for not.

But this is something staff likes to do for players, however it isn't often that people have what it takes.  I think that just makes it all the more extraordinary when it does happen.

For anyone that wants to attempt something like this.  My suggestions would be to keep staff in the loop, ask for advice if you need it and try to find powerful allies that can help you.

[MarshallDFX]

Respectfully submitted, it seems like a bit of an overzealous leap of logic for me.

I can now only store two chests in my apartment  =>  Being and independent merchant is now impossible.

[Synthesis]

Yeah, I don't see how anyone expects to store junk in their apartment, anyway.

As I've often lamented, everything worth more than 10 'sid seems to go missing within a week's time, unless you've managed to rent one of the apartments that only uber-burglars can even attempt to break in to.

As far as I'm concerned, the #1 perk of being in a merchant/noble House is the availability of lockers and chests to store your hard-won loot in a location that's orders of magnitude more secure than all but the most expensive of apartments.

[ianmartin]

I know the feeling

[musashi]

Other than that, it SCREWS elves as there is not a GMH that will hire them.

Just wanted to point out that this is not true. There is a GHM that will hire them ... please find out IC.

[Cutthroat]

Other than that, it SCREWS elves as there is not a GMH that will hire them.

Just wanted to point out that this is not true. There is a GHM that will hire them ... please find out IC.

Theoretically, all of them could hire them, there's nothing wrong with the actual act of hiring an elf - perhaps some family members would do this more openly than others, but hey, such is the life of an elf.

[FuSoYa]

Other than that, it SCREWS elves as there is not a GMH that will hire them.

Just wanted to point out that this is not true. There is a GHM that will hire them ... please find out IC.

Theoretically, all of them could hire them, there's nothing wrong with the actual act of hiring an elf - perhaps some family members would do this more openly than others, but hey, such is the life of an elf.

When/if I played a GMH family member you better bet your sweet ass I wouldn't hire no thievin' necker.

Brandon

[Cutthroat]

Other than that, it SCREWS elves as there is not a GMH that will hire them.

Just wanted to point out that this is not true. There is a GHM that will hire them ... please find out IC.

Theoretically, all of them could hire them, there's nothing wrong with the actual act of hiring an elf - perhaps some family members would do this more openly than others, but hey, such is the life of an elf.

When/if I played a GMH family member you better bet your sweet ass I wouldn't hire no thievin' necker.

Brandon

Perhaps most wouldn't, but there is an NPC elf with open employment in at least one GMH, and there have been PC elves in the other GMHs in history. Just saying that elves are totally not screwed.

[musashi]

Other than that, it SCREWS elves as there is not a GMH that will hire them.

Just wanted to point out that this is not true. There is a GHM that will hire them ... please find out IC.

Theoretically, all of them could hire them, there's nothing wrong with the actual act of hiring an elf - perhaps some family members would do this more openly than others, but hey, such is the life of an elf.

When/if I played a GMH family member you better bet your sweet ass I wouldn't hire no thievin' necker.

Brandon

From what I've seen there are GMH's that say blatantly in the docs that they will not hire elves ... and then ... there are GMH's that say quite clearly in the doc's that they will hire elves, even going so far as to work out different training routines for them in light of the fact that they insist on walking everywhere.

It should be pretty obvious which House is cool with hiring on elves I would think ... but yeah, I'll leave it to be discovered in game.