Pending Change to Charge

[Synthesis]

Is this live yet?

[Morgenes]

Is this live yet?

no

[spawnloser]

Thunkkin, I never said the traveler said Morgenes' projected change was unrealistic.  He wants something other than Moregenes' projected change, however, and I don't because I think Morgenes' projected change is perfect.  I was precise.  You misunderstood.

I disagree, though, about stuff being confusing.  The echo may've been confusing, but a charge is a charge.  You've seen charges in movies.  You don't do it from 3 feet away.  You need distance.  Just because the mud didn't acknowledge that before and people were abusing something because it was uber and the echo didn't support what a charge was... doesn't mean that people can't use some common sense.

[Thunkkin]

I think Morgenes' projected change is perfect.  I was precise.  You misunderstood.

Fair enough and we're in agreement on the first point I quoted. : )

[the traveller]

Thunkkin, I never said the traveler said Morgenes' projected change was unrealistic.  He wants something other than Moregenes' projected change, however, ..

I do? Didn't ever (intend to) suggest that.

All I was advocating was to let rangers keep one in-combat skill (for both flavour and some (reduced) benefit), and to not make mounted combat more of a handicap than it already was (in general).

After Morgenes then clarified the staff/coders intent, I also added:

Not to add fuel to the fire, but more to calm them, we do have more to this change than originally advertised.....

Ahh, Ok.  Thank you.

I'll shut up now.

They seem to have it in hand. I just suggested it might be easier for staff to tweak the existing skill differently, rather than to also add a new one, but all the better this way.

[Clearsighted]

Is this live yet?

no

I've played a character that just about lived on mounted combat, and charge was just about the /only/ possible equalizer to dealing with stuff like bashing, disarming and kicking, etc. And as others have said, mounted combat is unrealistically unattractive already.

Honestly, this is one of those changes that strike me as people having a round table discussion about how much they hate charge and having it just go too far. There are better ways to handle it. And it's impossible to have a real charge mechanic anyways given the nature of the combat system...where anyone can instantly attack anyone in the same room. If you could attack them from an adjacent room, it'd make more sense to be a one-shot only deal.

Though, I know that desert elves everywhere will be creaming themselves at this change. Given that a lucky bash (against their height and agility) or a charge, was about the only way to keep them still long enough. I still have nightmares about fighting an NPC-animated desert elf who constantly regenned HPs and stamina to boot. I think the staffer finally turned around and deigned to fight me out of pity.

/couldnt' be buggered to read 7 more pages of Synthesis loving on this, so if the change proposed in the OP got modified by Morgenes on like page 5, I missed it

[Delstro]

Charge will be changing to a fight starter like backstab or sap.
Trample will be introduced and it will be like bash, the old charge, kick, disarm.

[Morgenes]

Clearsighted:  I have updated the original post with the further elaboration on the changes that will be coming with it.

To save you the trouble (assuming you come back soon), here is what I posted on page 7:

Not to add fuel to the fire, but more to calm them, we do have more to this change than originally advertised.  Charge is getting an increase in damage to compensate for the loss of being able to do this repeatedly, and to better bring it into our idea of what charge is.

We are altering the penalties with mounted combat to make them be not as harsh, as well as adding increased chances to hit dependent on relative heights.

In addition, we are adding a new skill called trample that will be open to all highly skilled riders (yes, I said all, not just Rangers) that is more intended for trampling someone who is already down, but can be used on someone who is still standing to attempt to knock them down.  The defender will have a stronger chance of defending against this knockdown, and will be able to mitigate the damage somewhat through quick reflexes.

We agree that mounted combat isn't fleshed out enough in Arm1 to really be a viable style, but we hope that these changes will provide some meat and viability to it.  The ideas of weapon reach, and targetted locations changing would require a major change to Arm's combat and balancing to make sure it isn't overpowering.  They are great ideas, but better focused to Arm Reborn.

[Clearsighted]

Clearsighted:  I have updated the original post with the further elaboration on the changes that will be coming with it.

To save you the trouble (assuming you come back soon), here is what I posted on page 7:

Not to add fuel to the fire, but more to calm them, we do have more to this change than originally advertised.  Charge is getting an increase in damage to compensate for the loss of being able to do this repeatedly, and to better bring it into our idea of what charge is.

We are altering the penalties with mounted combat to make them be not as harsh, as well as adding increased chances to hit dependent on relative heights.

In addition, we are adding a new skill called trample that will be open to all highly skilled riders (yes, I said all, not just Rangers) that is more intended for trampling someone who is already down, but can be used on someone who is still standing to attempt to knock them down.  The defender will have a stronger chance of defending against this knockdown, and will be able to mitigate the damage somewhat through quick reflexes.

We agree that mounted combat isn't fleshed out enough in Arm1 to really be a viable style, but we hope that these changes will provide some meat and viability to it.  The ideas of weapon reach, and targetted locations changing would require a major change to Arm's combat and balancing to make sure it isn't overpowering.  They are great ideas, but better focused to Arm Reborn.

That looks incredibly cool, Morgenes!

[musashi]

I'm so glad I didn't read this post from the beginning, and just came in at the end when everything was settled and happy 

[Bogre]

Trample: Wow.

[mansa]

http://www.armageddon.org/cgi-bin/help_index/show_help?skill_trample


Skill Trample     (Combat)

This skill causes a highly skilled rider to attempt to trample an opponent while mounted on an animal. It works best on an opponent who is already prone, however it can cause your victim to fall over. This leaves the victim prone to attack and disables his/her ability to do things other than stand. This skill, while combative in nature, is primarily available to expert riders, since such maneuvers require expert control over the animal.

Syntax:
   trample <target>

   Example:
   > trample gith

   Notes:
   It is impossible to trample while your character is not mounted.

   The size of the mount can make a big difference in the success of a
   trample attempt.

   You can't trample something that is too large.

   See also:
   charge, combat, ride

   Delay:
   after (if success: opponent after)




http://www.armageddon.org/cgi-bin/help_index/show_help?skill_charge

  Skill Charge     (Combat)

This skill causes a highly skilled rider to attempt to knock down an opponent while mounted on an animal. Upon success, the victim will be knocked over and left on the ground (if he/she was not already there). This leaves the victim prone to attack and disables his/her ability to do things other than stand. This skill, while combative in nature, is primarily available to rangers, half-elves, and expert riders who have a greater rapport with animals, since such maneuvers require expert control over the animal.

Due to the amount of space required to do this maneuver, you cannot be fighting your target when you execute it. Disengage, or otherwise get away from them first in order to do this again.

Syntax:
    charge <target>

    Example:
    > charge gith

    Notes:
    If your character misses a charge, he/she may lose their balance and
    fall over and thus be in the same unenviable position as the opponent,
    had your character been successful.

    It is impossible to charge while your character is not mounted.

    The size of the mount can make a big difference in the success of a
    charging attempt.

    See also:
    combat, ride, guild_ranger, race_half_elf

    Delay:
    after (if success: opponent after)

[Synthesis]

What's the deal with the new ride messages?

p.s. Mounted combat should now satisfy everyone 

[Morgenes]

What's the deal with the new ride messages?

p.s. Mounted combat should now satisfy everyone 

that is part of the tiered success/failure for riding.  Instead of your mount balking with every fail, there are multiple possible outcomes, including the original balking, and the new outcomes which are additional delays caused by trying to get your mount to go the way you want.

[Synthesis]

Do the different delays stack?

Sometimes I'm getting like three different "partial failure" messages.

[Morgenes]

Do the different delays stack?

Sometimes I'm getting like three different "partial failure" messages.

that is likely a bug in the random choice of echoes.  You should only receive one echo, but I will look and see what is up.

[Thunkkin]

Pure win.

[Morgenes]

Ya, the bug is that it's sending multiple echos instead of choosing one.  It'll be fixed next reboot.  There is only one penalty being applied.

[Twilight]

I am somewhat perplexed as to why it is implemented the way it seems to be.  What I have experienced is a simple pain in the ass, and seems to be, at first glance, implemented on a simple level.

The most pain in the ass part is the falling off.  It isn't realistic and I can't see what it really adds to the game, other than a pain in the ass factor.

As far as I can tell, it seems to be doing the skill + terrain + weather calc before it figures out what the failure is.  I would have expected tiering here.  So, falling off based on skill, which really a moderately skilled rider should be able to avoid.   So...one set of failures based on the skill level.  If you pass, but fail due to incremental terrain modifier, a different set of echos and impacts (like your mount falls down).  If you pass, but fail due to weather, a different set of echos (like your mount loosing move mv due to a less than straight path).  Etc.

[Morgenes]

You should only be falling off your mount if the penalties amount to more than your skill, or if you fail two ride checks in a row.  Please mail me your character, account name, the name of the room you were moving from, how many hands you had free and what the speed of your mount was and I'll investigate if you are falling off and are a good rider.

Edited to note another possibility for a critical failure.

Please include logs where possible.

[The Archbishop]

I just wanna say anyone who has ever charged anything like a Mek or Bahamet, you deserve to play nothing but an elven merchant.

[musashi]

I just wanna say anyone who has ever charged anything like a Mek or Bahamet, you deserve to play nothing but an elven merchant.

Some folks RP'ed it as having their smaller animal maneuver around the larger one, close enough to say, hamstring the bigger animal and drop it that way. Or any other variety of ways a person might wish to emote.

Staff had not been clear on the skill's usage until now (indeed, as was pointed out in this thread ... staff was thinking it should be like a knight in armor's "charge" where as the code reflected more of a "trample") so I think saying anyone who ever charged a Mek or Bahamet is a twink who deserves to not be allowed a combat character is a bit ... judgemental.

... ...  I never charged a Mek or Bahamet (never had a PC badass enough to consider hunting one as anything other than suicide), I'm just saying that blanket statments like that could do with some perspective.

[tortall]

Yah, before the change I hadn't been falling off at all, and almost never failing. Now I never succeed, and always fall off. Granted, I've only used it maybe 4 times since the change, but....

Next few times it happens I'll log it and email it to you Morg. Maybe I just wasn't as good as I thought. 

[FantasyWriter]

If you slam a 2 ton lizard (an inix) into a 20 ton lizard's (a mek) leg... the thing is still probably going to go down.
But if staff chooses to make said 20 ton lizard fall down on top of the smaller lizard and smaller lizard's rider, then that's all good, too.

[The Archbishop]

Judgemental? The skill was pretty blatant. You ram your mount into something, you weren't using a weapon. You were using an animal, now say if animals could be trained to attack, or bite, or whatever the case may be I kind of see your point. You don't hamstring a Mek by ramming an inix into it's leg. And you know even if you did full speed ride an inix into it's leg, picture a car accident. Picture a 2 ton truck hitting a 20 ton truck. Safe to say your not staying mounted and ride around like you weren't just riding an animal that just plowed into something that would barely budge for your pea sized (in comparison) mount. Sorry for such a late response.