Pending Change to Charge

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

A system of delays balanced between skills and commands, such as moving the delay for actions when walking to before rather than after, would simulate the approach idea without actually adding more code or commands. Any combat skill needs a per-echo and delay to simulate approaching IF used to start a fight with something you have not already attacked in the same room, or, that is not already attacking you.

Examples:

The massive mul has arrived from the north.

The massive mul advances upon you, intent on attack.

>draw sword
You draw your bone sword.

The massive mul attacks you!
The massive mul slashes you very hard on the head.
You parry the massive mul's attack.
--


The massive mul arrives from the north.

>put herb pack
You put your weed in your pack.

The massive mul advances on you, bringing a foot up.

>say What the f ...
You say, in sirihish:
   "What the f..."

>run
You speed up to a run.

>w

The massive mul doubles you over with a kick to the groin.

--

The massive mul has arrived from the south.

The massive mul rushes at you, trying to knock you over.

>bash mul
You rush at the massive mul, trying to knock her over.

The massive mul slams into you, knocking you on your back.

Perhaps you should stand up first.

By assigning delays in certain senarios, and not in other scenarios, the same skill can be used in multiple ways. A strong system of delays take away the need to code anything as complex as an approach system, and keep combat streamlined, while introducing new variables.

[X-D]

Where to start, Alright, first, I agree completly with venomz.

Combined with the added height advantage, and the fact that being mounted makes you immune to many other combat skills this makes charge THE MOST powerful combat skill in the game. Beyond even backstab, sap and any magick.

I think you might just be being a cranky old man again here with this part, like when you were suggesting in the Casual Play discussion that being able to earn 50 'sids while off line would someone lead to lead to things like no skill grind and the removal of perma death. I've never seen anything get 1-shot ganked by a charge unless it was already pretty close to being dead, not even a tregil.

Who said anything about one shot ganked? Not I. And bringing up something completely unrelated from another thread weeks ago...come on, at least have a valid arguement that actually has something to do with what is posted or quoted.

I'm not going to say what the average damage from a charge seems to be, but it is much higher then any other skill like it. And that damage is to both stun AND HP.

After which you get to add in a rather hefty advantage from height given to offense and damage.

And almost no drawback to the skill. Ooh, at low skill if you miss there is a chance you could fall off. Big deal, falling off does like 5 damage and 6 stun and you can stand instantly.

At least if a warrior bashes he is on his back, 100% of the time that he misses. And for a reasonable amount of time.

Oh, and if he wants to bash, or kick, or subdue, guess what, he cannot be mounted and cannot do those to a mounted opponent.

So lets see here.

Bonus to offense and damage because riding, immune to at least 3 skills, maybe more, able to do a surprise attack that does damage, stun and knocks down nullifying the enemies ability to do anything but lay there and reduces offense and defense of the prone apponent effectively raising that of the mounted opponent.

And the risk is maybe falling off the mount 1 in 10 times?

HAHAHAHAHAHA...fuck, I'll take them odds.

Archery and throw take place in a DIFFERENT room. The reverse twinkery problem I mentioned above is not an issue for ranged abilities because the target isn't in the room to see them happen.

Lets see now, first, you can see somebody getting ready to shoot by either using watch or look. Or if they happen to be in the same room.

As to reverse twinking, nobody ever said anything about being able to nullify a charge by attacking while the before delay is on, if I was to code it, attacking while the before delay was on would actually assure the charge landed.

As to walking/running away during before delay...deal with it, it is realistic for me to be able to get out of the way of a 4k lbs animal moving top speed in a straight line...Its not a fucking porshe.

Why not? You're guiding the mount, not arguing with it over where it needs to go.

You don't ride much do you?

Try blindfolding a horse and riding it, see what that gets you.

And if, for some odd reason you manage to get the animal to do something other then buck you off for being an idiot, see if you can guide it out the barn door.

You do not control foot placement, balance or any of the other thousands of things needed for that animal to move. If it cannot see the target, the odds of it hitting in any way are pretty fucking small.

As to mount taking damage, I did say that I listed according to importance...that was like the last item, but I put it in because the rider is taking no risk.

That and you cannot compare bash/kick from a trained warrior to a dumb beast that somebody is forcing to run into stuff, not like it really knows how to avoid damaging itself.

[musashi]

I also like 7DV's idea. Sounds like a really good sulution with a minimum of work involved.

Who said anything about one shot ganked? Not I. And bringing up something completely unrelated from another thread weeks ago...come on, at least have a valid arguement that actually has something to do with what is posted or quoted.

Just pointing out you have a tendency to go over the top with the "slippery slope" logic, and that I think that's what you were doing when you said that charge was a more powerful skill than skills that are capable of one shot killing another PC.

I'm not going to say what the average damage from a charge seems to be, but it is much higher then any other skill like it. And that damage is to both stun AND HP.

After which you get to add in a rather hefty advantage from height given to offense and damage.

And almost no drawback to the skill. Ooh, at low skill if you miss there is a chance you could fall off. Big deal, falling off does like 5 damage and 6 stun and you can stand instantly.

At least if a warrior bashes he is on his back, 100% of the time that he misses. And for a reasonable amount of time.

Oh, and if he wants to bash, or kick, or subdue, guess what, he cannot be mounted and cannot do those to a mounted opponent.

I'm cool with the penalty for falling off a mount while charging being increased so that you end up just as bad as the person you were trying to charge would have been. I think that would be a pretty reasonable risk to associate with the skill and I'd support that change.

But as for the rest, if a warrior is riding as well, he's likewise immune to all the skills you just listed, along with being immune to being trampled and getting the bonuses to offense and defense also so it seems fair to me. If someone is riding a war beetle and you're on foot ... you're in for a tougher fight than you would have been if they had been on foot as well. What's the problem with that? That seems realistic.

Archery and throw take place in a DIFFERENT room. The reverse twinkery problem I mentioned above is not an issue for ranged abilities because the target isn't in the room to see them happen.

Lets see now, first, you can see somebody getting ready to shoot by either using watch or look. Or if they happen to be in the same room.

As to reverse twinking, nobody ever said anything about being able to nullify a charge by attacking while the before delay is on, if I was to code it, attacking while the before delay was on would actually assure the charge landed.

As to walking/running away during before delay...deal with it, it is realistic for me to be able to get out of the way of a 4k lbs animal moving top speed in a straight line...Its not a fucking porshe.

If attacking the person who was charging you did not affect their ability to still land the charge, then I'd be cool with what you're saying on that end.

But I still don't buy into the "deal with it" approach to the idea that someone can walk away from a charging animal. There are tons of funny youtube videos with bulls to illustraite my point.

Perhaps ... a good middle ground might be letting the person type "flee self" or something like when they see a charge comming, and then having a chance based on their flee skill to get out of the room before it hits? How would you feel about that as a middle ground?

Why not? You're guiding the mount, not arguing with it over where it needs to go.

You don't ride much do you?

Try blindfolding a horse and riding it, see what that gets you.

And if, for some odd reason you manage to get the animal to do something other then buck you off for being an idiot, see if you can guide it out the barn door.

You do not control foot placement, balance or any of the other thousands of things needed for that animal to move. If it cannot see the target, the odds of it hitting in any way are pretty fucking small.

No I don't ride much, but you're strawman'ing what I said and missing the point, or just intentionally trying to avoid it.

Firstly I know horses in cities pulling wagons are blind folded on purpose so they don't get spoked and they seemed to get around fine, so history has proven its possible to ride a pony that isn't looking where it's going.

Secondly, the animals we're talking about in game are not blindfolded. They can see the whole area around them and they can move just fine they just might be missing the fact that the goudra is in the bushes ... so make them charge the bushes.

Perhaps as a middle ground to this idea ... something like having the mount take damage when charging a hidden opponent because they're hitting it akwardly since they didn't realize until the last moment what it was you were charging them into. I would be cool with that.

As to mount taking damage, I did say that I listed according to importance...that was like the last item, but I put it in because the rider is taking no risk.

That and you cannot compare bash/kick from a trained warrior to a dumb beast that somebody is forcing to run into stuff, not like it really knows how to avoid damaging itself.

I agree that more risk should be applied to the rider, but I mentioned that above at the start of the post. But ... the idea that you can't train an animal for war is also a bit of a strawman I think. Horses can be trained to trample things, tigers can be trained to pounce on command, bears can be trained to balance on little balls and roll them forward with their feet ... animals are not scientists, but they aren't stupid either.

I'm not sure what a good way to code how well the animal is trained would be though ... hmm ... if there were a good way though, I'd be all for the animal's training being factored into how well it could handle a charge.

[Clearsighted]

I distinctly recall there being significant lag-time after a charge, whether successful or not. Cause all my near-death experiences had to do with failing it.

[musashi]

I distinctly recall there being significant lag-time after a charge, whether successful or not. Cause all my near-death experiences had to do with failing it.

There is a lag afterwards, but I agree with X-D that compared to the risk involved with other combat related skills, charge is pretty safe and could stand to be a bit more dangerous in terms of what happens when you critically fail it.

[X-D]

Giggles...They are not blindfolded.

They wear an item called blinders that block side and rear vision only. This helps stop the animal from getting spooked from things coming from the side and rear. Because that is were predators come from, something hard wired in horses.
They can see quite well where they are going.

As to a middle ground on that point...Meh, I have a real hard time with it. I suppose I could handle something like 75% reduction of skill verses something the animal cannot see.

Slippery slope arguments are quite valid, I could list hundreds of failed muds that failed just for that reason...though I've not used any such argument in this thread so, your point was moot at best.

But as for the rest, if a warrior is riding as well, he's likewise immune to all the skills you just listed, along with being immune to being trampled and getting the bonuses to offense and defense also so it seems fair to me. If someone is riding a war beetle and you're on foot ... you're in for a tougher fight than you would have been if they had been on foot as well. What's the problem with that? That seems realistic.

At this point the warrior is still at a disadvantage...but sadly at this point I cannot say more do to GDB restrictions on talking code. But it is sizeable.

Perhaps ... a good middle ground might be letting the person type "flee self" or something like when they see a charge comming, and then having a chance based on their flee skill to get out of the room before it hits? How would you feel about that as a middle ground?

That would suit me fine, I hate when people do the "walk away from threat" Anyway.

[musashi]

Giggles...They are not blindfolded.

They wear an item called blinders that block side and rear vision only. This helps stop the animal from getting spooked from things coming from the side and rear. Because that is were predators come from, something hard wired in horses.
They can see quite well where they are going.

I learned something new then! Still ... my point is that the animal I'm riding in game isn't blind either so I don't see how your examples about blind folding a horse and trying to walk it anywhere have anything to do with charging a hidden enemy.

As to a middle ground on that point...Meh, I have a real hard time with it. I suppose I could handle something like 75% reduction of skill verses something the animal cannot see.

We might disagree on to what extent the mounted person might have a disadvantage but we're in agreement that they should have one when trying to direct an animal towards a hidden person/prey. Hopefully staff can find a good middle ground that isn't biased one way or the other, but I do agree that charging someone who's hiding should be harder than charging someone who isn't, but I don't think it should be impossible, for reasons I already stated.

Slippery slope arguments are quite valid, I could list hundreds of failed muds that failed just for that reason...though I've not used any such argument in this thread so, your point was moot at best.

You haven't, you just made a statement that I thought was a bit over the top. I just don't think anyone could reasonably believe that charge is more powerful than backstab ... poisoning ... or any number of scary spells. We know those can kill someone with a single hit, and we know that charge doesn't. Seems cut and dry to me.

But as for the rest, if a warrior is riding as well, he's likewise immune to all the skills you just listed, along with being immune to being trampled and getting the bonuses to offense and defense also so it seems fair to me. If someone is riding a war beetle and you're on foot ... you're in for a tougher fight than you would have been if they had been on foot as well. What's the problem with that? That seems realistic.

At this point the warrior is still at a disadvantage...but sadly at this point I cannot say more do to GDB restrictions on talking code. But it is sizeable.

I take it you mean the warrior is still at a sizeable disadvantage to a ranger? Perhaps so ... but then we're just at a disagreement on whether a ranger should be a better mounted fighter than a warrior. And that doesn't really relate to the charge skill I don't think, just to how we feel about how classes balance out against one another.

I think my point stands that, assuming both folk are warriors ... they'll be about even if they're both riding, or if they're both on foot.

Perhaps ... a good middle ground might be letting the person type "flee self" or something like when they see a charge comming, and then having a chance based on their flee skill to get out of the room before it hits? How would you feel about that as a middle ground?

That would suit me fine, I hate when people do the "walk away from threat" Anyway.

It would suit me fine as well. I think we could even extend that idea to 7DV's post. So that if someone is comming to attack you and you see it comming, you can use your delay time to try and flee self to get away.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

That would work perfectly. Since I'd want to put a delay before moving east, when you saw that charge message, you could try walking, running, or fleeing, delays relative to the idea of the skills. If delays took into account stats and skills (which they should but usually don't), it would be an obvious match of talent in regards as to whether you could take off fast enough not to get charged.

[Synthesis]

Ugh, really...the last thing the game needs is something else to make it even easier for folks to run away.

The way charge used to be was a little too much. Adding a pre-delay on top of the nerf would render it pretty much useless for PvP.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

If the delay to movement comes before, not after, I don't think this is accurate, Syn.

[Synthesis]

What is this "delay to movement" of which you speak?

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

When you move, room to room, you have a delay after you enter the new room, during which certain commands can't be instantly executed.

I'd like to see a delay before you leave a room, instead.

Or are you being sarcastic, to make a point about how the delay is very short?

In which case, I'd agree, but would also suggest that the delay be longer, according to the type of room, be it city, forest, desert, water, etc, and modified by numbers derived from your skills and stats.

[Synthesis]

Oh.

I thought we were talking about a pre-delay on the 'charge' skill, not a pre-delay on leaving the room.

[Clearsighted]

Right now, it's pretty much impossible to kill someone intent on running away.

The lagtime for attacking is much higher than it is for fleeing and movement. Swinging a sword once might as well give them a ten league headstart.

[Spice Spice Baby]

In the last two months I've not seen a single instance of a PC emoting before the charge, they are using it as a surprise attack...So I don't want to be hearing anything about emoting, it does not happen.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I think the main reason why this doesn't happen is because most of the things that get charged are aggro animals. If you move into a room, you don't have time to type out an emote. You have to type 'charge raptor' pretty much instantaneously or you won't be able to charge it at all.

Since every other skill in the game uses stam, Charge should use up a large amount of mount stam as well. As should trample.

I'm not staff so I can't say this for 100% sure, but I was under the impression charge has always had a stamina cost to the mount already. I've always assumed it had. If that's not true, then I think it should definitely be changed.

[Synthesis]

Well, the thing about using it as a surprise attack is:  you -have- to use it as a surprise attack or you pretty much forfeit using it at all, unless you flee out, run back in, and charge after your target pre-emptively attacks you.  Which is equally lame, to be honest.

[jstorrie]

I kind of like that cavalry rules out in the open.

[brytta.leofa]

I'd like to see a delay before you leave a room, instead.

At one point, I think I suggested splitting the movement delay: part before, part after.

  Echo in this room: The tall, muscular man runs east.
  (very short delay--Amos is still in this room)
  (Amos is actually transferred to the east room)
  Echo in east room: The tall, muscular man runs in from the west.
  (remainder of movement delay for Amos)

[Majikal]

Why do rangers even need the super buff charge of doom anyhow? The bonuses added to fighting while mounted are already pretty damn nice.

I'm finding the skill is mostly being abused anyhow and as a lover of rangers, charge was never my win button because Rangers have a bunch of sexy, amazing perks that I found more entertaining, none of which left a bad taste in my mouth after the use. Even the day of this change I noticed people already trying to find a new way to capitalize off the skill. Charge, flee n, s, charge etc. (I got to be on the receiving end once myself  )

Charge getting scrapped down to be as useful as bash would be a nice compromise.

[Clearsighted]

Eh. Let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater guys.

If one were to make a list of overpowered or abused skills, charge would not even crack the top ten. With the changes made to it so far, (I.E, no longer possible to charge many types of large critters), it's probably not even in the top 20.

Though, I'm aware that delves will forever hate this skill, since given their height makes them all but immune to bash, it's one of the only way to keep those dirty neckers from running away =(.

[musashi]

Why do rangers even need the super buff charge of doom anyhow? The bonuses added to fighting while mounted are already pretty damn nice.

I'm finding the skill is mostly being abused anyhow and as a lover of rangers, charge was never my win button because Rangers have a bunch of sexy, amazing perks that I found more entertaining, none of which left a bad taste in my mouth after the use. Even the day of this change I noticed people already trying to find a new way to capitalize off the skill. Charge, flee n, s, charge etc. (I got to be on the receiving end once myself  )

I um, I believe that staff went ahead and said in a post somewhere before this, that running away/disengaging and charging again was a perfectly acceptable way to use the skill; so I wouldn't call it abuse. I've used the skill in a similiar fashion and not felt at all like I was twinking out.

The gith attacks ... the gith falls down ... the gith gets up and runs away ... the gith comes back for more ...

Alright fucker ...

The gith falls down ... and so on, and so on ...

[Riev]

I um, I believe that staff went ahead and said in a post somewhere before this, that running away/disengaging and charging again was a perfectly acceptable way to use the skill; so I wouldn't call it abuse. I've used the skill in a similiar fashion and not felt at all like I was twinking out.

I think during that quote, they didn't mean stunlocking someone/something with it. Currently, you can stunlock with charge pretty easily.

[musashi]

I um, I believe that staff went ahead and said in a post somewhere before this, that running away/disengaging and charging again was a perfectly acceptable way to use the skill; so I wouldn't call it abuse. I've used the skill in a similiar fashion and not felt at all like I was twinking out.

I think during that quote, they didn't mean stunlocking someone/something with it. Currently, you can stunlock with charge pretty easily.

As I understood it, pre-change you could keep someone in perpepual stun-lock so they could never stand, draw weapons, flee, ect. Staff thought that was too powerful and abusable so it was changed to only work as an opening combat move ... and ... it was given a bigger post delay so that by the time you're able to say ... disengage and charge again ... the other person will have already had the chance to get up and do something.

So, I thought the issue of someone being trapped unfairly in stun-lock was already fixed by design. Even if I flee and come back and try to charge again, by fleeing I've just given the other PC the ability to flee themselves, right?

[Riev]

If thats true, I don't find it twinky, except when you exploit the fact that aggro creatures will always come back to you.

[musashi]

If thats true, I don't find it twinky, except when you exploit the fact that aggro creatures will always come back to you.

I've seen some aggro creatures who flee and don't come back although I admit ... only recently, so I wonder if it's exploting the creatures, or just taking advantage of the way they are supposed to behave in game. Let me ask the staff in the other forum!