Pending Change to Charge

[musashi]

I think there are plenty of echos the code generates that we as players use our own judgement to decide if they fit with the current situation or need to be tailored for the case in point.

Did the carru really just smirk at you as it side-stepped your slash? The code says it did ... but maybe you'd rather RP it differently since it would be jarring to take the coded echo literally.

Did someone who rested really just lay back completely prone on the ground? Hard to say, the echo says they sit down to rest their tired bones ... but that they stop resting and sit up, when they're finished ... so which one is it? The coded echoes give conflicting viewpoints ... so we tend to go off whatever the other person was RP'ing it as because that's better for our immersion.

Prior to staff changing the code and laying out a clear explanation of how they viewed the charge skill, it would also be jarring to imagine your erdlu trampling over an inix ... so rather than go by the coded echo, folks once again just RP'ed it as a slightly different means to the same end (the inix falling over).

I'm just saying that I don't see anything wrong with that (before staff changed their ruling I mean), and I wouldn't accuse folks who did it of being knowing twinks who should be punished. That's all.

But what I'm talking about is not the same as the "charge lock" abuse staff was describing earlier on in this post. A mek, bahamet, oxen, inix, whatever other large critter ... will still happily kick your ass from a prone position in a fight so charging them wasn't really making them leaps and bounds easier to kill.

I think the main problem was that you could charge lock a PC (who had no weapons drawn yet and hence was pathetic in a fight) and keep them on the ground, unable to codedly get their blades out.

[The Archbishop]

And I have no dispute with code echo sometimes being off. Obviously some things have to be played around. There's no playing around ramming your mount into something it shouldn't be ramming. IE an erdlu charging an inix. Now the the rare case your playing an insane character and you have no judgemental sense and for some unknown reason you think it's a good idea to ride your mount into a 2 story creature I can see that. At no point in time can I imagine there's some way to go about rping around the charge skill to somehow use it to knock over a mek or bahamet. Your a man riding a inix, your not gonna knock over a bahamet. It's not gonna happen. All I can ask is you,    is would you ever say you know I'm a char with the charge skill, purely oocly would you ever charge your mount into a mek or bahamet? Would it make sense as something that can be played out in the game? Maybe I'm biased, and am used to the old harsh ways of being punished. But that scenario is dumb, and I personally just don't agree with anyone having done it.

[musashi]

At no point in time can I imagine there's some way to go about rping around the charge skill to somehow use it to knock over a mek or bahamet.

I can. For reasons I explained above. I just wouldn't jump the gun and assume that anyone doing it was knowingly trying to abuse the code for gain, and should therefore be punished. I guess I'm not used to the old harsh ways of being punished first, questioned later.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

If you manage to charge a mek successfully on your erdlu, there are a number of ways to RP why it was successful.

None of them are twinky. Hamstrings are valid points. Surprise is a valid point. Not to mention, charge, like bash and kick, is open to interpretation.

Let people play, and don't hunt for reasons to call them twinks.

[The Archbishop]

None of them are twinky..alright.
Go bash a half giant. There's good reason that unless your another half-giant you fail.

[musashi]

None of them are twinky..alright.
Go bash a half giant. There's good reason that unless your another half-giant you fail.

Sure, there is a good reason. But still, a very very skilled halfling warrior just might, I'm assuming I admit ... actually bash a half-giant. The code presumably lets them do it (though it by no means makes it easy, and many might not even try for fear of the massive penalty of failing), this is apparently by design ... so if a halfling bashes a half-giant and pulls it off, and they want to RP the halfling as having landed a good bite to the nuts to make it happen ... I'd be inclined to roll with it and not think anthing poorly of them. I certainly wouldn't high handedly call them a twink and say they should never again be allowed to play a combat class.

I  doubt the charge skill worked much differently when it came to bashing bahamets and mek's. It likely let you try, but unless you really really knew your stuff, you probably failed badly. So if someone managed to do it and wanted to emote it out as something other than a literal trample, I'd be ok with that.

I believe that even now, the code might still let you attempt to charge a bahamet ... just now your chances of doing it have gone down some more.

So even now with the new code in place, it might still be possible, however unlikely, to bash a mek with an erdlu, and if a PC pulls it off, I would think them suicidal ... but not a twink.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

None of them are twinky..alright.
Go bash a half giant. There's good reason that unless your another half-giant you fail.

If you bash a half-giant successfully, you have succeeded. It's not twinky.

Having not used the charge skill yet, I am still going to assume that the size of the charger against that of the charged is taken into account. So. If this is so, then if you successfully use an erdlu to charge a mek, then your success is not twinky. You have gotten lucky.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I'll also point out that an inix is about one-tenth the size of a mekillot, per this. Certainly not pea sized. Your analogy of a 2-ton truck hitting a 20 ton truck is nearly perfect, however.

I believe staff will adjust it if they feel it is out of hand. I think they will comment on it, if it is out of hand. Until then, I think all is well.

[musashi]

I had been looking for that picture! Thanks.

[The Archbishop]

Heh have you ever bashed a half giant successfully venomz? And a human is certainly more than 1/10 the size of a half giant.
All I'm saying is you could hamstring a half giant, but you don't go about doing it by bashing them.

[Is Friday]

Heh have you ever bashed a half giant successfully venomz? And a human is certainly more than 1/10 the size of a half giant.
All I'm saying is you could hamstring a half giant, but you don't go about doing it by bashing them.

No.

[musashi]

Heh have you ever bashed a half giant successfully venomz? And a human is certainly more than 1/10 the size of a half giant.
All I'm saying is you could hamstring a half giant, but you don't go about doing it by bashing them.

I'm not even sure what it is you're trying to point out anymore. Near as I can tell your arguement seems to be: If your PC or their mount is small, and you type in the command to bash or charge something large ... you're a twink. Regardless of the result, regardless of how you RP, you're a twink for trying.

Is there something else I'm missing? Or is this basically it? Because if that's it then we can just have a difference of opinion and get on with things.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Regardless of the result, regardless of how you RP, you're a twink for trying.

Yeh, this is what I'm reading too. And basically, I just disagree. I don't guess it really matters. If staff cared, they would have posted something by now. Obviously, they don't.

I'm guessing that's because of how the code works currently in this instant, and how it arbitrates for us already.

[Riev]

After nine pages of this, I'm sick of raging to myself.


Staff put a LOT of fucking work into making charge a different type of skill. Its not as though the coders went in, changed a method, and said "Ok we're done."

So far, its been said that it is WELL within what they wanted the code to be. If they see fit, they'll change it, but what WE perceive as "twinky" clearly doesn't matter unless its imbalanced the game so much that people are charging at Tek's tower to knock it down.

How many pages has there been, now, about charging an inix at a mek and how people that do it shouldn't play this game? Fuck. Way to alienate the people that just want to play the game and not worry about their every little action being judged by some partial jury.

[The Archbishop]

Yeah this is just an old topic we're going back and forth about. Well I'm just kind of saying the same thing in thirty different ways, and we're obviously not agreeing.
Which is fine by me. But if reading this is annoying you or making you feel alienated. STOP READING THIS THREAD, go play the game and have fun. Go bash a a half giant while your at it.

[Jdr]

I would like to see who would win in a deathmatch battle: Archbaron or The Archbishop.

[a strange shadow]

Definitely the Archbishop.

[Xagon]

Archbaron. His forum icon looks like an orange if you look at it funny.

[Thunkkin]

Archbaron. His forum icon looks like an orange if you look at it funny.

Wait ... it's NOT an orange?

*goes to go double-check*

[RogueGunslinger]

Thats why it's so awesome, it's an orange made out of a desert setting and a githclit.

[X-D]

Alright, after several weeks of evaluating the charge skill.

I have found one major flaw that makes me truly hate the skill.

And that is that there is no warning.

I mean, it is bad enough that you can enter a room and be instantly close enough to attack them.

But being able to turn an animal that weighs several thousand pounds, get it up to speed and trample over somebody with NO warning what so ever is just silly.

Combined with the added height advantage, and the fact that being mounted makes you immune to many other combat skills this makes charge THE MOST powerful combat skill in the game. Beyond even backstab, sap and any magick.

Changes I think need to be made.
(in order of importance)
Charge needs delay before as well as delay after. Same as backstab, archery, throw, sap etc.

Like Archery and throw it also needs an echo before.

In the last two months I've not seen a single instance of a PC emoting before the charge, they are using it as a surprise attack...So I don't want to be hearing anything about emoting, it does not happen.

Next,

You should not be able to charge something that the mount cannot see.

Since every other skill in the game uses stam, Charge should use up a large amount of mount stam as well. As should trample.

As the mount gets more tired the odds of landing a charge or trample should be reduced.

This would deal with another bit of twinkness I have been watching. I have seen, multiple times, a PC use both charge and trample while riding an animal that cannot even walk a single room due to being too tired.

And lastly, the mount should be injured with any successful charge or trample. Maybe not a huge amount, but again, if your ramming your animal into something that is armored and carrying sharp items, weather that is teeth, spines or weapons, they will take some damage.

[brytta.leofa]

And that is that there is no warning.

Do any other combat skills give a warning before taking effect?

[X-D]

Like Archery and throw it also needs an echo before.

Yes.

And the ones that do not, well, they also do not involve a 2000lbs+ animal.

Not to mention, all of them leave you open to things rather then making you immune.

Using a 20 foot long, 4,000 lizard in a surprise attack is Da Twinkness*lameness.
Shit, even magick has echo before.

[Clearsighted]

X-D has some good points to make about charge. Though, some of its worst excesses have been curbed lately, such as no longer being able to charge mekillots.

But I will say, from having played a PC that /lived/ off Charge, for months, that all of my closest brushes with death came from charging, and then falling while doing so. And without getting too specific, let's just say I played that particular ranger for more than 40 days, and used charge VERY often, and was still falling off one in ten times towards the end.

Also. Charging desert elves was a pain. It was much easier to charge a bahamet or a half-giant.

[musashi]

Alright, after several weeks of evaluating the charge skill.

I have found one major flaw that makes me truly hate the skill.

And that is that there is no warning.

I mean, it is bad enough that you can enter a room and be instantly close enough to attack them.

But being able to turn an animal that weighs several thousand pounds, get it up to speed and trample over somebody with NO warning what so ever is just silly.

I guess I would be cool with giving charge a small delay before use as well as the one after it, but I'm just not entirely sure about having it give off a room echo. My main concern with doing that is the reverse twinking that would no doubt follow suit.

What I mean is ... sure it's unrealistic for me to be able to instantly charge you with my big lizard from across a plain of grass ... but it seems equally unrealistic for you to be able rush over and attack me first to interupt it because you saw it coming. Or for you to be able to get a room away from me while -walking- even though I was -charging- a galloping lizard in your direction.

Seems like "fixing" one side of the problem would just unbalance the other side, until some kind of approach code or the like is in place.

Combined with the added height advantage, and the fact that being mounted makes you immune to many other combat skills this makes charge THE MOST powerful combat skill in the game. Beyond even backstab, sap and any magick.

I think you might just be being a cranky old man again here with this part, like when you were suggesting in the Casual Play discussion that being able to earn 50 'sids while off line would someone lead to lead to things like no skill grind and the removal of perma death. I've never seen anything get 1-shot ganked by a charge unless it was already pretty close to being dead, not even a tregil.

Changes I think need to be made.
(in order of importance)
Charge needs delay before as well as delay after. Same as backstab, archery, throw, sap etc.

Like Archery and throw it also needs an echo before.

I would be ok with the beforehand delay like I said above, but I think you're missing one important difference between charge, and archery/throw.

Archery and throw take place in a DIFFERENT room. The reverse twinkery problem I mentioned above is not an issue for ranged abilities because the target isn't in the room to see them happen.

If you really want a charge echo displayed to everyone, then can we please also change charge so that I can "charge NPC e" from 1 room over? That seems fair enough to me. Otherwise it seems like you're just asking that I give you fair warning before I attack, that I'm about to attack you ... so that you can do something twinky to get out of it.

In the last two months I've not seen a single instance of a PC emoting before the charge, they are using it as a surprise attack...So I don't want to be hearing anything about emoting, it does not happen.

People very rarely take the time to emote that they're running over to you to swing a club at your head either so ... I'm not entirely sure where you were going with that. Struck me as a bit of a double standard.

Next,

You should not be able to charge something that the mount cannot see.

Why not? You're guiding the mount, not arguing with it over where it needs to go. Small Edit to Add: Again this seems like a twinking/reverse twinking problem to me. Sure, it might be unrealistic for me to be able to charge my beetle around the rock you're hiding behind somehow, but ... it's also unrealistic for you to be able to instantly get out from around that rock and close the distance to me without me being about to see it coming and take some kind of action. Again, I think that until there is some kind of approach code, this one is just better left alone.

Since every other skill in the game uses stam, Charge should use up a large amount of mount stam as well. As should trample.

As the mount gets more tired the odds of landing a charge or trample should be reduced.

This would deal with another bit of twinkness I have been watching. I have seen, multiple times, a PC use both charge and trample while riding an animal that cannot even walk a single room due to being too tired.

This I completely agree with. I wouldn't mind at all if charge and trample used up a mount's stamina. Fair is fair after all.

And lastly, the mount should be injured with any successful charge or trample. Maybe not a huge amount, but again, if your ramming your animal into something that is armored and carrying sharp items, weather that is teeth, spines or weapons, they will take some damage.

Again, I feel like a double standard is being used. Does bash injure the PC who did the bashing even if it was successful? Does kick? Seems like the same thing to me. You're throwing parts of your body out to strike someone else who might be armored and carrying sharp items so ... if you really want this in game, then I guess I can go along with it, but lets keep it fair, and apply it to the warrior skill sets as well.