Elves and Silt Skimmers

[Eternal Strife]

Taking over skimmers and having someone else pay for them at a cheaper, but expensive, price or some other ransom would be enough to catch the interests of some elves.

Which, in this instance, is akin to saying that an elf would drive a wagon to provide it for cheaper to get money, or would offer rides on a kank for cheaper to get money.

No it isn't.

It isn't.

Due to their nature as runners, all elves find riding mounts to be a shameful act (though they can usually forgive the use of mounts by other races).

* You can not run across silt - The only means of travel across it is magick and skimmers.
* Skimmers are not powered by mounts. On the other hand, wagons are.
* Mounts can not travel across the silt.

If elves can not ride skimmers, I think we should at least know the reason why and be able to discuss the issue. Prove to me (the playerbase) whats so damn shameful about taking the 'only' source of transportation across the silt.

This only adds to the list of things elves (city elves especially) can not do, limiting them compared to the other races.

[jcljules]

To state that every elf has to be proud of his ability to run is not realistic.
...
Pride isn't something you're born with. You learn it through actions and from those around you.

Due to their nature as
runners, all elves find the riding of mounts (and usually, riding in
wagons) to be an extremely shameful act--though a few can forgive the
riding habits of other races. In other words, elves will never ride on
mounts or in wagons, as to do so would be to insult one of the few
things they are proud of: their natural speed and endurance on the run.

I think the documentation makes it clear that elves are all born with pride in their physical ability to run. The fact that the city elf race doesn't have it is no excuse--it just reflects a different lifestyle choice on the part of the city elf tribes in question. They'd still have the same racial pride in their abilities.

[5 day lifespan]

Like a paraplegic Nazi being proud of his physical superiority over the Mutt races.

[Marc]

It's all pretty much a load of contrived bollocks.

Elves do not ride.  It is an insult to the one thing elves are UNIVERSALLY proud of, their conceived ability to run.

Elves do not ride on wagons.  See above.

Elves do not ride on skimmers. ?

Elves DO use transportation magicks because it comes from themselves.

Questions:

Is the elven running -thing- natural or cultural?
If an elf built a skimmer with his own hands for whatever reason, would he use it?
If an elf had a mount that could fly, would he use it?  What if he raised it himself?
Do all elven magickers universally believe their magick comes from them and not some horned god, elemental plains, or whatever else humans believe?
An elf allows a magicker friend to cast magick on him.  Would the elf allow transportation magicks to be used?
Would an elf use a magickal item that granted transportation effects?

[jcljules]

I'm saying its not just the culture. Yes, its true, the elven mindset comes from the tribal societies in which they live. But elves are predisposed towards living in those sorts of societies because of some innate psychological/biological force. Are you saying that there's no basic psychological difference between elves and humans on Zalanthas?

[jcljules]

My argument is that elves already have pride in their running abilities psychologically ingrained within them. Culture only reinforces it.

[spicemustflow]

My argument is that elves already have pride in their running abilities psychologically ingrained within them. Culture only reinforces it.

You can't be born with a pride, that makes no sense.

[Marc]

Elves are born 'proud' of their running ability.  The numerous elven cultures in the world only reinforce that.

Please reconcile this stance of elven nature and running with magick and skimmers.  TIA

[Armaddict]

This was specifically brought up at the staff meeting, and we discussed it for a bit.

Answer:  no.

Thusfar...I -really- don't see anything, anything at all in this thread, that is very unlikely to have crossed the staff's mind before an actual discussion, not a simple brushing aside.  It was brought up specifically, briefly discussed, and decided.   I don't think it's going to change...and based off of the above quote (and the following is an assumption, still, even with the above quote, but a pretty good one , I think)...

Taking over skimmers and having someone else pay for them at a cheaper, but expensive, price or some other ransom would be enough to catch the interests of some elves.

Which, in this instance, is akin to saying that an elf would drive a wagon to provide it for cheaper to get money, or would offer rides on a kank for cheaper to get money.

No it isn't.

It isn't.

Yes.  It is.  And there's going to be a derailed concept elsewhere about what is insistently called the 'limiting' of races, instead of the very important 'defining' them as roles and races that are different from each other.

[Eternal Strife]

Taking over skimmers and having someone else pay for them at a cheaper, but expensive, price or some other ransom would be enough to catch the interests of some elves.

Which, in this instance, is akin to saying that an elf would drive a wagon to provide it for cheaper to get money, or would offer rides on a kank for cheaper to get money.

No it isn't.

It isn't.

Yes.  It is.  And there's going to be a derailed concept elsewhere about what is insistently called the 'limiting' of races, instead of the very important 'defining' them as roles and races that are different from each other.

If you don't mind, Armaddict, give me valid reason to believe that riding on a skimmer is the equivalent to riding on a wagon or mount.

[Yam]

Taking over skimmers and having someone else pay for them at a cheaper, but expensive, price or some other ransom would be enough to catch the interests of some elves.

Which, in this instance, is akin to saying that an elf would drive a wagon to provide it for cheaper to get money, or would offer rides on a kank for cheaper to get money.

No it isn't.

It isn't.

Yes.  It is.  And there's going to be a derailed concept elsewhere about what is insistently called the 'limiting' of races, instead of the very important 'defining' them as roles and races that are different from each other.

If you don't mind, Armaddict, give me valid reason to believe that riding on a skimmer is the equivalent to riding on a wagon or mount.

They're both made of wood!

[FantasyWriter]

And both are not elf-powered.

[Armaddict]

If you don't mind, Armaddict, give me valid reason to believe that riding on a skimmer is the equivalent to riding on a wagon or mount.

1.  He no longer has the option to run at his pace without leaving something behind (in this case, his life).
2.  There is no display of the superior ability of his, the superior fitness, the superior endurance, that makes his race superior.
3.  It is no longer movement or travel by means of his own power or one of his tribe, it is harnessing some other power.  (i.e. Magick comes from me, this other thing doesn't)
4.  It acknowledges a weakness of the elf to not move by his own power someplace.


There's some off the top of my head.  That are 'valid', as they have been throughout the entirety of the thread by more posters than just me.

Some people in Real Life take a look at a boat on water and think, ehhh....not for me.  I like to think it's built into elves to think of it in the same manner with all these sorts of things.

[Eternal Strife]

If you don't mind, Armaddict, give me valid reason to believe that riding on a skimmer is the equivalent to riding on a wagon or mount.

They're both made of wood!

Ha!

And both are not elf-powered.

Not powered by a tribe of elves and the magickal currents of silt? Or did you mean one made out of elf corpses?

1.  He no longer has the option to run at his pace without leaving something behind (in this case, his life).
2.  There is no display of the superior ability of his, the superior fitness, the superior endurance, that makes his race superior.
3.  It is no longer movement or travel by means of his own power or one of his tribe, it is harnessing some other power.  (i.e. Magick comes from me, this other thing doesn't)
4.  It acknowledges a weakness of the elf to not move by his own power someplace.


There's some off the top of my head.  That are 'valid', as they have been throughout the entirety of the thread by more posters than just me.

Some people in Real Life take a look at a boat on water and think, ehhh....not for me.  I like to think it's built into elves to think of it in the same manner with all these sorts of things.

Some nice points here...

When you related to a the Real Life scenario, you mentioned that some things not for 'some people', but I think there are 'some elves', prone to wandering (as said in the documents), that would eat the silt up on a skimmer. Everyone isn't made or thinks the same.

[Armaddict]

When you related to a the Real Life scenario, you mentioned that some things not for 'some people', but I think there are 'some elves', prone to wandering (as said in the documents), that would eat the silt up on a skimmer. Everyone isn't made or thinks the same.

Yes, yes I did.

I'm not trying to say that it's an unforgivable offense, but rather what the standard should seem like.  I don't think it should be exactly commonplace, and should probably make most people lift their eyebrows and think, "Huh, never seen that before."  That's the average person thinking that.

However, maybe the guy who sells skimmers...over the course of the years, he may just give an odd look and think, "Seen it a couple times before."  A hard line has to be made though.  One of my big fears in this game is literally being overrun by the 'I'm one of the few exceptions' mentality which ends up appearing or being dominant.

[Yam]

There are a lot of elves in the Byn and Kurac. Kurac has lots of posts in Red Storm.

Kurac also has lots of silt skimmers. Some of these Kuraci elven sergeants must be going out on silt skimmers. Hell, I seem to remember plenty of elves going out on silt skimmers back when they were first around.

It just seems very odd and hackneyed that the staff suddenly disallowed elves from skimmering it up. Especially when they make up such a (comparatively) sizable percentage of Bynners and Kuracis.

[Agent_137]

Kurac also has lots of silt skimmers. Some of these Kuraci elven sergeants must be going out on silt skimmers. Hell, I seem to remember plenty of elves going out on silt skimmers back when they were first around.

not true? it was a big thing back in the day when kurac bought TWO. now, apparently, they have NONE.

[Yam]

Kurac also has lots of silt skimmers. Some of these Kuraci elven sergeants must be going out on silt skimmers. Hell, I seem to remember plenty of elves going out on silt skimmers back when they were first around.

not true? it was a big thing back in the day when kurac bought TWO. now, apparently, they have NONE.

If you ever want me to play L4D with you you better fucking agree with me.

[Dan]

What I could come up with to defend their not riding on skimmers, for the sake of being devil's advocate here...

There is no one on the Silt Sea to steal from except people on other Skimmers.

Why take the chance of stealing from a Skimmer crew out at Sea when they will just come back to shore eventually anyway?

Why risk your neck going out to find 'treasure' on the Sea of Silt when you can convince the people that -do- do that to give it to you at a steal of a price on land.

How does sailing the Sea of Silt benefit your tribe, when its bounty will come back to shore anyway?

Going out onto the Sea is dangerous, it is a gamble with your life. I've never seen an elf gamble without loaded dice, or a kruth card up their sleeve. You can't rig the Sea of Silt travel game.

I can't get away from danger if it approaches. Every confrontation is either win, or lose. An immobile elf is a dead elf.


Finally, elves never liked the show Deadliest Catch.

[Attana]

Finally, elves never liked the show Deadliest Catch.

Aw.  Why not?  I fucking loved that show.

/derail

Personally, I see the points of not letting the elves ride silt skimmers, and I see the points for letting them ride silt skimmers.  I say put it up in the documentations that they don't -normally- ride silt skimmers - but not make it a firm and final "No, elves aren't allowed.  Nope, nut-uh, no budging."

It's unrealistic to think that one or more elves might not be interested in crossing the silt, or taking a silt expedition due to history and/or quirks of said elfie.  It's a little ridiculous in my opinion to think that nothing will ever come up that would have an elf seeking out the greater beyonds of the silt.

[Sephiroto]

F' you round-ear, I'm not riding that silt-ma-jig!

[Marauder Moe]

How come no one has posted about how (non-military house) nobles aren't really allowed to go on silt skimmers?  The documentation already prevents them from hunting, going to the 'rinth, sifting for spice, and doing other activities that are dangerous and dirty, all because of some stupid noble pride. [/parody]

Seriously, this discussion confuses me.  Where did this notion that every character (or at least that elves) should be able to experience every geographic part of the game come from?

[Thunkkin]

Seriously, this discussion confuses me.  Where did this notion that every character (or at least that elves) should be able to experience every geographic part of the game come from?

I think you may be generalizing here.  The complaint that I'm seeing is that one specific group - city-elves - are restricted in ways that most other non-karma and even low-level karma roles are not.  You'll notice that no one is complaining that desert elves can't hang out in cities or get jobs in cities.  The disappointment that I'm sensing here is:
1) City-elves cannot travel or effectively operate outside cities
2) The two main (non-underworld) organizations that hire elves require travel outside cities
3) Said organizations are filled with npc elves, yet a PC city-elf is a hindrance or inconvenience to these organizations
4) IC support for city-elf roles in Allanak is slim, though things seem to be looking up in the north.  (I've never played an elf, so I don't know - I'm just summarizing what I'm seeing here.  Maybe there are tons of IMM staff running c-elf plots and clans in Allanak).
5) Silt-skimmers potentially offered something that elves could "do."  A useful role that they could fill in a clan.  Some seem disappointed that this is not the case.
6) City-elves, especially those in Allanak, are thus confined in ways that are not compensated by other aspects of city-elf life.  Your example of a noble is correct - they are restricted.  However, playing a noble comes with all sorts of other perks. 
7) Yes, we want to avoid a slippery slope of balancing everything.  However - city-elves as a highly confined race may be "realistic" and "according to the docs," but it's not particularly fun for most players. 
8) Most players play this game to have fun.

I'm trying to think of hard-coded race/classes that have these limits with no compensated perks.  Nobles are restricted, but get all sorts of wealth, political power, npc guards, plots, etc.  Same with Templars.  Gemmers are restricted, but get amazing abilities in return and access to (apparently) some really cool stuff.  Desert elves (and other tribals?) face a variety of restrictions, but get access to neat clans with awesome docs as well as coded perks that make them truly masters of their environments.  Half-giants have restrictions, but they're awesomely strong and can find a variety of roles and play styles.  Dwarves face some mild restrictions (focus), but again, this doesn't limit what they can do. 

I don't think people want total balance.  I think they want fun and they're pointing to something that discourages certain types of fun without any pay-off.  This doesn't mean it should be changed, but it also means that we shouldn't expect people to play city-elves.  This leads, then, to further variance from the docs since the high percentage of the population that is city-elves is not as frequently represented.  There are complaints that there are too many magickers/gemmers.  Why?  Because, apparently, there is something about them that is appealing and fun.  There are complaints that there are not enough elves.  Why?  Because apparently, there is something about them that is not appealing and fun.

[SMuz]

C-Elves are fun. I have fun playing city elves. If you're not having fun playing to the racial limitations, according to documentation, maybe you should play something more fun? Not to be snarky or anything, but really.. I won't play halflings or mantises or assholes or vivaduans because they're not fun to me. If you really want someone who has to explore far from the city or doesn't like stealing or can be an asset in a non-underworld clan, maybe you shouldn't play a (city) elf?

But seriously, I like elves as is. I have no intention of bringing one on a skimmer or a wagon or any such thing. The limitations and the social stigma brings a unique flavor to roleplaying them. IMHO, being at the bottom of the social ladder is a perk in itself.

[Thunkkin]

C-Elves are fun. I have fun playing city elves. If you're not having fun playing to the racial limitations, according to documentation, maybe you should play something more fun? Not to be snarky or anything, but really.. I won't play halflings or mantises or assholes or vivaduans because they're not fun to me. If you really want someone who has to explore far from the city or doesn't like stealing or can be an asset in a non-underworld clan, maybe you shouldn't play a (city) elf?

Precisely!  Which is why I'll never play one.  I was just pointing out that those who want slightly expanded opportunities for c-elves aren't calling for total game balance, but rather, more opportunities and variety for 40% (?) of the city's population.  And moreover, that the PC c-elf opportunities do not seem to match NPC c-elf opportunities, which seems a bit odd, since usually PCs represent more variety and possibilities than NPCs, not less.

Your post wasn't snarky, though.  I'm in agreement - people shouldn't play something that isn't fun.  But there may be a reason why (the last time I may or may not have been in Allanak) there didn't seem to be a particularly vibrant and varied c-elf city population.