Elves and Silt Skimmers

[SMuz]

Hmm.. here's an idea: silt elves. They're like city elves, just that they don't leave the skimmers.

[Eloran]

The problem with this is that a skinny would, normally, not own a skimmer.

That's a stretch.

If I were a C-elf, I wouldn't trust being on something that floats with a crew of people that I don't trust.

That's akin to saying you don't trust the weapon you wield. A skimmer to an elf would be considered a tool, just like any other race. As for the crew, who says they weren't picked by the elf for their trustworthiness after years of testing said crew's loyalty?

[Armaddict]

...I don't think it's much of a stretch.

[Marc]

No more than a human, normally, wouldn't own a skimmer.

Those that could afford them are the vast minority of their species.  Whether they'd have the inclination to spend sid ON a silt skimmer is another question

[Eloran]

...I don't think it's much of a stretch.

Ok.

Can you explain?

[FantasyWriter]

I got it, by Jove!

A tribe of elves that decide to move across the sea!
Or a tribe that decides to become stilt-sea pirates.

+5 FW

[Yam]

I got it, by Jove!

A tribe of elves that decide to move across the sea!
Or a tribe that decides to become stilt-sea pirates.

+5 FW

It'll never happen. As the staff said, elves don't ride silt skimmers.

You know. Because, uh...

They're proud?

[Armaddict]

Ok.

Can you explain?

I think he explained it pretty well, just that you called it a stretch, even though he refers to documentation and how it could, very possibly, relate to the situation at hand.  I am inclined to think that there's a little more 'unf' behind the dislike for the decision just because it's new, and people want to try it out, but exclusion of races makes it feel meh.

Me?  I'm inclined to think an elf would think, "Can't walk there?  Can't run there?  Krath, why go somewhere with no one to scam, not much to hunt, and very probable death without even being able to stand on my own feet?"

But.  No matter what reasons are discussed with most of you, even the staff's...I'm also inclined to think it wouldn't make much difference.

[Rhyden]

I could see a very ballsy and very bold elf ride in a silt skimmer if only to con all the stupid roundear or dwarven sea-mates aboard. This would probably be as rare as the chance of any group of roundears or dwarves being stupid enough to let an elf ride with them on a skimmer.

A skimmer filled with a tribal group of elves would probably be even less likely, unless it was a last option/survival of the tribe kind of thing.

[Synthesis]

When I saw the Staff response in Ask the Staff I rolled my eyes so hard I almost passed out.

[Eternal Strife]

Whether they'd have the inclination to spend sid ON a silt skimmer is another question

Why would elves spend sid on a skimmer when they can steal one and become pirates!?

A skimmer filled with a tribal group of elves would probably be even less likely, unless it was a last option/survival of the tribe kind of thing.

I see very few reasons for anyone to be out there on the silt for the time being.

Me?  I'm inclined to think an elf would think, "Can't walk there?  Can't run there?  Krath, why go somewhere with no one to scam, not much to hunt, and very probable death without even being able to stand on my own feet?"

Taking over skimmers and having someone else pay for them at a cheaper, but expensive, price or some other ransom would be enough to catch the interests of some elves.

[Armaddict]

Taking over skimmers and having someone else pay for them at a cheaper, but expensive, price or some other ransom would be enough to catch the interests of some elves.

Which, in this instance, is akin to saying that an elf would drive a wagon to provide it for cheaper to get money, or would offer rides on a kank for cheaper to get money.

[Yam]

Taking over skimmers and having someone else pay for them at a cheaper, but expensive, price or some other ransom would be enough to catch the interests of some elves.

Which, in this instance, is akin to saying that an elf would drive a wagon to provide it for cheaper to get money, or would offer rides on a kank for cheaper to get money.

No it isn't.

[5 day lifespan]

But you know how things work in games like this.  You never have ONE black sheep, you have a flock.  Like the recent surge in gemmer population, people seem to forget that often times in games like this, the norm IS bucking the trend.

[SMuz]

But you know how things work in games like this.  You never have ONE black sheep, you have a flock.  Like the recent surge in gemmer population, people seem to forget that often times in games like this, the norm IS bucking the trend.

Hah, so true! I remember being baffled at one time that I picked a really cheesy concept, only to learn that I'm the only one who did it.

[5 day lifespan]

Yes, but think about ALL the people who wanted to be "An outcast elf that rides mounts," or "The dwarf with hair," or "The well adjusted half-elf."  I'm sure one of the imms could get on and regale us with the dozens of people who wanted to be "unique" by "going against the docs" and being the "One Exception."  There are loads.

The notion of a tribe of elven pirates DOES amuse me.  But only if they harness silthorrors as living mounts.  Like bizarre floating fremen.

That will entertain me.  For the three seconds before it consumes my skimmer.

'Holy fucking shi-"
"Welcome to Armageddon!"

[Thorg]

I dislike the idea of anybody telling people how to interpret their own character. With that said, you obviously have to abide by documentation or else the game world wouldn't get anywhere. I also believe that documentation needs to be ignored at times. This is a key example. Telling people that their characters cannot do something is silly. There could be a perfectly good IC reason for an elf to ride in a skimmer yet staff simply tells you, "no". It is obvious they are trying to retain some sort of tradition where elves fill the sneaky, cloak-n-dagger underworld roleplay of the MUD but that's also very restrictive to the game world. You will always have your black sheep and generally you can't say anything to a player who decides to roleplay an insane character. If a city-elf is completely insane and rides mounts and goes on skimmers, that's a viable reason. Yet we as players are told we can't roleplay this? Unless I am mis-construing information being given here.

The point here is that the elf would be insane because he chooses to ride a kank or pilot a silt skimmer, it shows a disturbed elven mentality and point of view, just as a sociopath is insane because they behave without heed for human concepts of empathy, restraint or fear. An elf has an inborn psychological disposition towards self-ability or "pride" in everything they are able to do: they perceive their abilities (and the abilities of their tribe) as supreme definitions of who they are. It's this non-human sense of self that results in an elf's lack of trust for anything that isn't himself or his tribe - to trust someone is to incorporate the recipient of that trust into your very being, and as such isn't given lightly to anyone who isn't tribe (thus the concept of elven testing). Now riding a mount, that's comparable to the tremendous sense of loss and grief that must assail a human who has lost their legs and must rely upon a wheelchair for locomotion - the elf is cutting away that pride in their own self, their ability to do something on their own - if we again take the example of the human paraplegic that in order to travel fast over a scorching desert without getting tired a human had to cut his own legs off every time he got into a wheelchair and suffer the feeling that he'd never get them back, that is comparable to how an elf would feel about hopping on a kank's back.

The prospect of exploring the silt sea aboard a skimmer, even if the skimmer was crewed by people the elf trusted and was of appreciated construction, would highly unappealing to an elf, I'd imagine, due to the complete lack of control over the situation, perhaps summed up with the idea that the elf's feet aren't on the ground - they can't control and internalise their surroundings in a way that suits their non-human senses of self.


Phew, I am sure the above will be unpopular and I stress that these are personal interpretations of the racial roleplay documents. I think it comes down to the difficulties in role-playing non-human characters - a dwarf always has a foci because of a complicated psychological affliction that all dwarves are born to have, the best way to get over what can be seen as restrictive rules is to realise that a "foci" to the dwarf isn't a defined mental variable, it can't be summed up with a single statement, even though the player controlling them can - it's something that defines who they are and is the cumulation of countless mental factors.

[SMuz]

I'm not talking about magickers or muls or the rare occurrences of classes and races. I'm talking about people who strictly go against the enforced documentation. Ie: Dwarves without foci. Elves who ride kanks. Cheery half-elves that are accepted. Intelligent half-giant.

The point is the documentation shouldn't be a ruleset. It should be a universally accepted guideline. If you enforce documentation like rules you just get threads like these which I think are good for debate, but in the end they mean nothing if staff just simply respond with  a resounding, "no".

Well, the problem with that is, yeah, the exception will be the norm. The gemmer thing already proves a point - problem with Arm is once you get full permission, you do get full permission.

The whole exception thing is excellent for fantasy novels, but if you allow anyone to play a cheery ½ elf, at least half of the players will do it at any one time. It's perfectly fine for a single-player game, but in a multiplayer game, it leads to some massive inconsistencies. Sure, you can imagine that every (v)NPC breed out there is a dick, but you encounter 3 happy PC ½ elves, it ruins everyone's game.

So, yeah, it's a sacrifice. Nobody wants to be the norm, so the staff simply have to say "no elves on skimmers" because they know that everyone will want an elf on a boat as soon as they say "ok".

[Thunkkin]

So, how fast would an elf have to run to be able to run on silt?

[Thorg]

So, how fast would an elf have to run to be able to run on silt?

If we take custard as an example, it's possible to run on it, despite the fact that it's a liquid owing to how it compresses when put under pressure (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnGCtTekRJ8). Maybe silt is similar, just need to run a little faster.

[FantasyWriter]

So, how fast would an elf have to run to be able to run on silt?

Spec app whirran elf messiah who walks across the silt sea trying to get humans to trust him enough to step off their skimmers and follow him.
(so he can loot their corpses, of course)

[Eloran]

So, how fast would an elf have to run to be able to run on silt?

Aided by magick? That'd be cool...

[flurry]

I think it's worth remembering that the elven attitude toward mounts/wagons/etc. doesn't have to be rational. In other words, you can't expect that they can just reason their way out of perceiving something as shameful.

It reminds me of questions about why more people wouldn't just overcome their fear and hatred of magickers, and realize how useful they are. Likewise, it's because fear and hatred often aren't logical.

[Thorg]

The point here is that the elf would be insane because he chooses to ride a kank or pilot a silt skimmer, it shows a disturbed elven mentality and point of view, just as a sociopath is insane because they behave without heed for human concepts of empathy, restraint or fear. An elf has an inborn psychological disposition towards self-ability or "pride" in everything they are able to do: they perceive their abilities (and the abilities of their tribe) as supreme definitions of who they are. It's this non-human sense of self that results in an elf's lack of trust for anything that isn't himself or his tribe - to trust someone is to incorporate the recipient of that trust into your very being, and as such isn't given lightly to anyone who isn't tribe (thus the concept of elven testing). Now riding a mount, that's comparable to the tremendous sense of loss and grief that must assail a human who has lost their legs and must rely upon a wheelchair for locomotion - the elf is cutting away that pride in their own self, their ability to do something on their own - if we again take the example of the human paraplegic that in order to travel fast over a scorching desert without getting tired a human had to cut his own legs off every time he got into a wheelchair and suffer the feeling that he'd never get them back, that is comparable to how an elf would feel about hopping on a kank's back.

The prospect of exploring the silt sea aboard a skimmer, even if the skimmer was crewed by people the elf trusted and was of appreciated construction, would highly unappealing to an elf, I'd imagine, due to the complete lack of control over the situation, perhaps summed up with the idea that the elf's feet aren't on the ground - they can't control and internalise their surroundings in a way that suits their non-human senses of self.


Phew, I am sure the above will be unpopular and I stress that these are personal interpretations of the racial roleplay documents. I think it comes down to the difficulties in role-playing non-human characters - a dwarf always has a foci because of a complicated psychological affliction that all dwarves are born to have, the best way to get over what can be seen as restrictive rules is to realise that a "foci" to the dwarf isn't a defined mental variable, it can't be summed up with a single statement, even though the player controlling them can - it's something that defines who they are and is the cumulation of countless mental factors.

I don't think the elf would be insane. Psychologically he might be just fine. Pride is not a psychological condition, it's an emotion and a sense of yourself. To state that every elf has to be proud of his ability to run is not realistic. Furthermore the city-elves already do not have any ability whatsoever to keep up in the sands with their cousins, so even if they are the same race, why would a city-elf have this pride? Comparing it to them having their legs cut off is a huge stretch of the imagination. Why would they feel that why? Without some understanding of the mind we can't even argue this point. The docs simply say, "This is how it is, period." There is no room for debate. If there was then you wouldn't be penalized for playing a city-elf that rides. What if the city-elf was born and raised amongst humans? What if he thought long and hard to himself and said, "You know what. This is stupid. If I walk in the sands I might die. If I ride this animal I won't." To think that an elf is not capable of this line of thought is impossible. Even if it's already an enforced documentation, I'm of the opinion that any concept is do-able even if it bends the documentation.

I don't mind the fact that desert elves have this mindset so much because they actually can run like olympic long-distance endurance runners. City-elves on the other hand cannot, and this is the reason I would see a much different mindset with them. Even so, I could come up with a thousand reasons why a city-elf or desert-elf would ride a mount and not really care.

Pride isn't something you're born with. You learn it through actions and from those around you.

Pride isn't a psychological condition for human beings, no. What elves experienced isn't pride, it is called pride by humans because that is what it resembles but that doesn't mean it exists in the same parameters as human pride, which is what my post was trying to convey.
The city elf has this pride because he is genetically predisposed to defining himself by what he personally can do: where a human would say: "My name is Amos and I like stealing, I've trained for years." an elf would say: "My name is Haddeem and I can lift a purse without a sound, my wits are as sharp as the blades I can carve myself." or a dwarf would say "I am Tokk, I will take the coins of others after watching them carefully so that I will one day steal the Chosen Lady Allaba's signet ring from her finger and thus I will be able to pass as a noble". It isn't that they choose to do so, it's just how their minds work, how they approach the world.

The comparison to having their legs chopped off was to demonstrate the mutilation of their sense of self they'd feel by substituting the labour of another for something they are physically enabled to do. I also explain my reasoning in my last post.

Your point on an elf raised by humans is countered by the example of half-elves. Breeds who are raised by either parent in that environment still feel the emotional void and struggles that defines the half-elf race due to them not being human and having a mind that is structured in a dissimilar way to a humans. When the documents say "No. Just no." this is shorthand for a more long-winded explanation for, as with this example, something that is core to the elf mindset - what humans would call "pride" but an elf would call "self".
An elf raised by a human would also be pretty messed up anyway for various other reasons but not in as straightforward a way as "Hey I can't run so I'll hop on a kank."

"Pride" is something elves are born with. It defines who they are, just as what humans would call "focus" defines what dwarves are.

As for "it couldn't not ever happen" the docs say that in order to save their own life an elf -might- choose to use a mount, I imagine this is comparable to the scene in the movie Saw where the character realises he's going to die unless he saws off his own foot.

Again I stress that this is my imagining of the framework outlined in the docs.

[jcljules]

Personally I think that city elves just aren't meant to leave the cities that they're from. I don't even think too much about the whole riding argument, because the documentation about elves makes it very clear that they are territorial and don't like to leave their tribal 'areas.' That area might be a quarter of a city, an entire city, or a certain stretch of desert--and leaving there shouldn't be too common. Granted, there are exceptions, but I still think the no-riding mindset would apply even then.