How elves regard humans?

[loopylobes]

How do elves treat humans when they talk? Is it OK RP-wise for an elf to start up a conversation with a human in a tavern?

What is the most RP way an elf will regard a human?

Thankyou!

[RogueGunslinger]

Mistrust, I'd presume.

Yes it' alright to strike up a conversation with a human in a tavern.

[Fathi]

It's okay for an elf to strike up a conversation with anyone if he thinks there's a good reason (see: profit, swindling, making contacts).

Keep in mind that pride is one of the defining elven characteristics. Elves are proud to be elves--they're proud to be quick, sly, sneaky, tricky, and especially proud to be a member of their tribe. Conversely, a human is not so quick, not so sly, not so sneaky, and not so tricky. And humans almost all don't have tribes.

I think the way an elf would regard a human in that aspect varies: they might feel a sort of condescending type of pity or just outright racist dislike. Some elven tribes are a lot more racist and xenophobic than others.

In the end, I think an elf would see a human as a tool they could use to achieve their own goals. If that means "befriending" the human in order to gain an advantage, such as having the human around to help them with a certain task or to funnel information or to merely sell stuff to, then I think the elf in question would be more than motivated to start up a conversation and act congenial. But an elf would never really befriend a human unless extreme trials of trust had been passed--and even then, a human is not a member of the elf's tribe.

[loopylobes]

Are there such things as tribeless city elves? How would one be affected by not having a tribe?

[RogueGunslinger]

Are there such things as tribeless city elves? How would one be affected by not having a tribe?

They, themselves, would be their tribe.

[SMuz]

Hmm.. here's something I'm wondering - How would elves treat their clans? I mean, I wouldn't want an elf in my clan for worry that he'd steal all the stuff from the store or be all disloyal to the clan if his tribe wants to rip off my clan. I'd assume that an elf wouldn't steal from his clan because there's no glory in stealing from someone who trusts him. But will an elf treat a clan as if it was his tribe, especially if it's got lots of new roundear faces? After many years, and getting to know a lot of trustworthy humans, will he, eventually, trust humanity in general?

And if an elf does something bad and gets kicked out of his tribe, how will he react to it? Will he feel immensely mortified? Will he try to join another clan? Or will he simply decide to live his life solo?

[Marauder Moe]

Hmm.. here's something I'm wondering - How would elves treat their clans? I mean, I wouldn't want an elf in my clan for worry that he'd steal all the stuff from the store or be all disloyal to the clan if his tribe wants to rip off my clan.

I don't think an elf with a tribe would ever join a clan.

EDIT: unless he and his tribe were planning some sort of large heist.

I'd assume that an elf wouldn't steal from his clan because there's no glory in stealing from someone who trusts him.

None of my characters would ever make that assumption.  I think there's plenty of glory in tricking people into trusting an elf.  It's not easy.

But will an elf treat a clan as if it was his tribe, especially if it's got lots of new roundear faces? After many years, and getting to know a lot of trustworthy humans, will he, eventually, trust humanity in general?

No.  An elf will never trust "humanity in general".  Elves only trust two types of people: tribemates and individuals who have passed enough trust tests.

The thing to remember, though, is just because you don't trust someone doesn't mean you can't work with them.  Good example: Jayne from Firefly.  No one trusted him, but they all worked well together (most of the time).

And if an elf does something bad and gets kicked out of his tribe, how will he react to it? Will he feel immensely mortified? Will he try to join another clan? Or will he simply decide to live his life solo?

Depends on the elf.  All of those reactions seem plausible.

[spawnloser]

It should take an act of Congress to make an elf do anything that would cause his/her tribemates to kick him out, seriously.  If you only trusted a handful of people in the world, would you do anything so grossly wrong (within the morality structure you all share) that they would never speak to you again?  Don't think of it like family in our modern world... because you trust and can trust other people.  An elf would assume that noone else in the world will be trusted... ever.

An elf that has a tribe already has a clan.  The only reason to join some other organization would be to rip it off.

As far as tribeless elves go, though, I think this is horribly overdone.  Seriously.  There are city tribes and desert tribes.  Talk to the appropriate clan staff and join one.  You'll learn what it is to be an elf so much better than if you just hop into some city elf pick pocket in Tuluk or 'Nak and go off to do your thing.

[spicemustflow]

As far as tribeless elves go, though, I think this is horribly overdone.  Seriously.  There are city tribes and desert tribes.  Talk to the appropriate clan staff and join one.  You'll learn what it is to be an elf so much better than if you just hop into some city elf pick pocket in Tuluk or 'Nak and go off to do your thing.

Being tribeless iss the only option for a city elf at the moment unfortunately.

[spawnloser]

I cry BS.  In fact, I KNOW BS.  There are documented, code-supported city-elf tribes.  Granted, the only ones I know of for certain are all in the Rinth, but people who play a city elf from Allanak proper... please, just don't do this.  Tuluk should have just as many tribes as Allanak, the key word being 'should.'

Additionally, you can have a tribe that isn't documented and code-supported.  Make up a tribe!  Talk to the appropriate staff about your tribe's background and then go with it.  Make it grow.  Get others to join.  Make it bigger than just you... and eventually, maybe, it'll have as much support as some other tribes that started with just one player's imagination.  (There are a couple.)

Tribeless?  Meh.  Overdone.  Elves come from tribes.  All of this whiny emo, "My tribe was wiped out/I don't know what tribe I'm from/I don't know who my parents were," crap is pathetic.  To not even come up with something that pathetic and to just say, "I have no tribe," without coming up with how a tribal is without a tribe is lazy beyond excusability for a serious roleplayer.

[FantasyWriter]

Tribeless?  Meh.  Overdone.  Elves come from tribes.  All of this whiny emo, "My tribe was wiped out/I don't know what tribe I'm from/I don't know who my parents were," crap is pathetic.  To not even come up with something that pathetic and to just say, "I have no tribe," without coming up with how a tribal is without a tribe is lazy beyond excusability for a serious roleplayer.

Well said.

[RogueGunslinger]

Your request just simply wont happen until more documentation and support are given to c-elves, or restrictions are placed on playing c-elves(karma/sponsored roles).

But I hear tell that staff are planning to give the city elves some lovin'.

[Synthesis]

I cry BS.  In fact, I KNOW BS.  There are documented, code-supported city-elf tribes.  Granted, the only ones I know of for certain are all in the Rinth, but people who play a city elf from Allanak proper... please, just don't do this.  Tuluk should have just as many tribes as Allanak, the key word being 'should.'

Additionally, you can have a tribe that isn't documented and code-supported.  Make up a tribe!  Talk to the appropriate staff about your tribe's background and then go with it.  Make it grow.  Get others to join.  Make it bigger than just you... and eventually, maybe, it'll have as much support as some other tribes that started with just one player's imagination.  (There are a couple.)

Tribeless?  Meh.  Overdone.  Elves come from tribes.  All of this whiny emo, "My tribe was wiped out/I don't know what tribe I'm from/I don't know who my parents were," crap is pathetic.  To not even come up with something that pathetic and to just say, "I have no tribe," without coming up with how a tribal is without a tribe is lazy beyond excusability for a serious roleplayer.

The only way I've ever managed to get into a coded city-elf tribe was by IC recruitment.  The way the coded tribes (at least, in the 'rinth) are, a PC who is a hard-coded member of the Sandas or other tribe has power equivalent to (probably greater than) a soldier in Allanak proper, because there is a fairly dense population of bad-ass NPCs who will open with a backstab and then fight to the death for you.  Furthermore, there will be little to no oversight of your activities, allowing you to run amok until you do something so totally over the top that the Staff have to step in and put the kibosh on you. While having homies watching your back may be realistic, it is not something that the Staff will hand out lightly to the relatively unsupervised.  Imagine if a d-elf PC had 3-4 NPCs to accompany him around the desert who backstabbed everything that attacked the PC.

As far as making your own clan is concerned:  you'd have to have at least 3-4 long-term players in the clan...in a place like the 'rinth, this is exceedingly unlikely to happen.  Over a period of two years a while back, a friend and I tried to get a d-elf clan started...I have a long series of characters who were from that tribe...and nothing ever came of it, other than padding my character list.  Developing a clan is not merely a matter of good roleplay:  it takes a certain organizational mindset, a lot of patience, Staff support, and the ability to stay alive for a long period of time.  These are not trivial things, and dismissing folks who don't bother with them in order to play a member of a severely under-represented and difficult-to-play race is juvenile.  There was a period of time that the Staff were interested in fleshing out the world with coded tribes (human and d-elf), and several tribes came about during this period...but this period is over. 

Furthermore, the elven tribal structure could easily be entirely disrupted by living amongst humans.  Look at all the historical human tribes (IRL and IC) that were shattered by assimilation into a larger civilization.  Historically, all humans were from tribes...not so anymore.  It can easily be assumed that the traditional elven extended family is no longer a viable option when Big Brother is watching.  In fact, having a tight-knit extended family would be more of a liability to your average criminal than an asset, given the nature of psionics and the fact that any templar worth his salt will know that you can't kill a tree by picking off a leaf now and then.

[Jingo]

I don't have a problem with anyone playing a broken-ear lone elf in the city. The documentation says they do exist.

But when I play city-elves I usually try to put together a small nuclear family of vnpcs just 'cause.

[spicemustflow]

I cry BS.  In fact, I KNOW BS.  There are documented, code-supported city-elf tribes. 

They are all closed.

And tribeless elves don't have to be pathetic and go around crying for their lost parents. Their personality has great potential and has many paths for development. Imho, course. Still, opening some tribes up would do wonders for celven population.

[titansfan]

The truth is...currently it takes quite a bit to get into one of the coded city-elf tribes. But in my opinion it's worth it. And if you can't do that, make your own tribe, I have done this several times...pick up a few family members (that ofcourse fit your background) and suddenly *bam* your running around causing mischief....my bad, not running, sneaking :p

[spawnloser]

If you have a problem with the city elf tribes being closed, bitch about them being closed to the appropriate staff.

Oh, and I never said you had to have a coded clan/tribe.  I said you'd better, ffs, put some thought into your tribe and KNOW as much about your virtual tribe as you would know about your coded tribe if you were in one.  The lamer than a parapalegic with a sprained ankle "my tribe was wiped out" EXCUSE is old... and not only that, it's pathetic and cheesy and cliche.

If you aren't going to play an elf as a member of a tribe, you may as well special app a human with a buffed agility, because that's what you're doing.  I despise running into city elves in game because they all act like tall, skinny humans.

[Synthesis]

If you have a problem with the city elf tribes being closed, bitch about them being closed to the appropriate staff.

Oh, and I never said you had to have a coded clan/tribe.  I said you'd better, ffs, put some thought into your tribe and KNOW as much about your virtual tribe as you would know about your coded tribe if you were in one.  The lamer than a parapalegic with a sprained ankle "my tribe was wiped out" EXCUSE is old... and not only that, it's pathetic and cheesy and cliche.

If you aren't going to play an elf as a member of a tribe, you may as well special app a human with a buffed agility, because that's what you're doing.  I despise running into city elves in game because they all act like tall, skinny humans.

[musashi]

Whether or not its for the best, to me it's always seemed like city elves are there for newbies to pick and try to play like middle earth elves until they realize that elves don't act that way in Armageddon.

I dunno, I've just never seen a well done city elf, ever.

[spawnloser]

You got a problem with what I'm saying Synth?  Maybe you could explain why you think a solitary elf is a good thing in this game.  Perhaps you could explain how a solitary elf is in line with the documentation.  I'm waiting.

[Synthesis]

City elves are scattered across the settled places of Zalanthas, and have adapted to live by their wits. True to the nature of elves they also live by their quick fingers, and are usually avoided by the honest citizens of other races. Some city elves are members of tribes camped in some run- down space within its walls; others lead shiftless lives with no ties of loyalty at all.

Are we done yet?

[musashi]

City elves are scattered across the settled places of Zalanthas, and have adapted to live by their wits. True to the nature of elves they also live by their quick fingers, and are usually avoided by the honest citizens of other races. Some city elves are members of tribes camped in some run- down space within its walls; others lead shiftless lives with no ties of loyalty at all.

Burn ...

[SmashedTregil]

It's pretty easy to get wtfpwned if an elf shows his elven nature right off the bat, just to prove that elves are different in my opinion.  Condescending behavior to humans? Forget that. You can feel superior, think superior, talk superior shit with your elven tribemates in private, behind a locked door, with scan and barrier up, but in public ? In public an elf is the most accomodating, most gentle, most trustworthy and helpful person you can ever meet. Unless he's not alone and you're in his territory ...

[Thunkkin]

City elves are scattered across the settled places of Zalanthas, and have adapted to live by their wits. True to the nature of elves they also live by their quick fingers, and are usually avoided by the honest citizens of other races. Some city elves are members of tribes camped in some run- down space within its walls; others lead shiftless lives with no ties of loyalty at all.

Are we done yet?

[SmashedTregil]

An example of one of my celf backgrounds. He was a throw away character of mine that I made during my very busy time, so his total lifetime was about ... hours? He didnt get to talk to anyone or do anything (That's what playing when busy at work does to you, most of his existence was idlying). Mentions a tribe. I think it's an okey example of how to be a tribed elf without having a coded tribe, but leaving yourself open to everything if desired.


Surviving in the labyrinth, Varia is a part of a small obscure tribe
eeking their life off the spiced out hounds of the alleys and an occasional
theft.  Just below a dozen strong, the two remaining elders of the tribe,
seem eager to convince what young they have to find another tribe to take
them in.  But it was not always so.  Varia remembers, that no more then
fifteen, eighteen years back, the tribe had a small fame as expert thieves.
So accomplished they were in this art, the theft itself was beginning to get
engrossed by a multitude of rituals, and added difficulties, just so the
tribemates could demonstrate their skill.  Soon enough, the greatest of them
have stolen something he shouldnt have stolen, from someone he shouldnt have
touched, and streams of bounties, bynners, militia, and gangs began to pick
the tribe apart like sewer rats.  The tribe have gone into hiding, keeping
it's heritage quiet, mostly struggling to survive and outwait the heat.
Regardless of all Varia's elders say, about persuing a different tribe, or
keeping quiet and low profile, Varia's main and singular hope and dream is
return the glory that his name once possessed.

[ibusoe]

It's pretty easy to get wtfpwned if an elf shows his elven nature right off the bat, just to prove that elves are different in my opinion.  Condescending behavior to humans? Forget that. You can feel superior, think superior, talk superior shit with your elven tribemates in private, behind a locked door, with scan and barrier up, but in public ? In public an elf is the most accomodating, most gentle, most trustworthy and helpful person you can ever meet. Unless he's not alone and you're in his territory ...

I like this.

[Jingo]

Lets not forget that in the right circumstances, and given enough time, an elf might be the most loyal companion a human has ever had. It would be pretty rare though.

[Semper]

I dunno, I've just never seen a well done city elf, ever.

Recently, I agree. However, I can count a number of very well-played c-elves in the past. Mostly from the Rinth and one from Tuluk. The minumum requirement to be considered being that they lasted a RL month at least.

To be honest though, I feel the only variation that elves bring to the game are the coded benefits and the tribal roleplay. Humans can be played like an elf. Elves can be played like some humans. At least with a dwarf, the dwarven focus allows them to do things sane humans often won't pursue for very long. If all elves were suddenly turned into humans, but still retained their documentation, I think not very much at all would be taken from the game.

The only noticeable difference that elves have which humans cannot have are that they are taller, more agile, and "supposedly" wiser than the human counterpart. Plus some additional coded perks to some. That an the whole tribal fanatisism aspect which I feel is an IG excuse for player-run families.

Playing the devils advocate, it's generally frowned upon players wanting to recruit for their family having trust straight from the start, but it happens all the time with elven tribes. Isn't this a double standard?
/derail

To reply to the OP, Elves regard humans like a con artist would regard their mark. Set up the perfect front and just wait for the right opportunity to pull the floor from under their targets. Because of the elven persona, the amount of time elves have been around, and conditional logic, human's have come to realize/suspect what happens when you deal with elves, which is why human's deal with elves with racism, scorn, and a large degree of mistrust and hate.

An elf in a clan (presumming the elf was allowed into the clan in the first place) could be there for a few reasons.
1) Either they join because they are living for themselves (tribeless) and joining the clan further improves their chance of surviving.
2) Because they are about to pull a scam for their tribe.
3) They (the tribeless elves) identify best with the clan, and have come to view the clan (or members within that clan) like trusted members of their (newfound) tribe.

Depending on which of those three your elf falls into would determine how your elf would react to the clan.

[spawnloser]

Psh.  They still had to come from somewhere.

I still maintain that people playing city elves aren't playing elves.  99% of city elves I see are tall, skinny humans.

Oh, and here, if we're going to quote one-liners from the docs to justify silly things, why not continue?

Water mages are highly employable

Stone mages may be employed as part of an army or scouting group, for they are well able to weave protective magicks around their companions. Stone mages can also be invaluable as travelling companions because of their abilities to conjure mounts and construct shelters for rests during long journeys. Stone mages are, however, the most druidic of all the mages, and usually come to appreciate solitude and long quiet communes with the earth.

Druidic?  LOL!

Yeah, quoting one line out of the documentation to support your argument is pointless.  If you read the entirety of the documentation instead of one line and you understand what it is to be an elf, you'll ignore that one line you quoted.

[spicemustflow]

Ok, then go and read entire elf roleplay docs. Tribeless elves and their outlook on life are mentioned in more than 'one silly outdated one-liner'.

[NoteworthyFellow]

On the topic of tribeless elves:

What Does Not Being a Tribal Elf Mean?

While elves who are born and raised within the culture their tribe provides them, those who are born without a tribe (or lose their tribe, for whatever reasons) adopt a new mentality. Tribal elves have a strong sense of their family, meaning that as an individual they usually feel themselves as an extension or a working gear in the system that is their tribe. Elves who are without tribes have a strong sense of self, and generally their own presence will replace that of the tribe. Tribal elves have a strong distrust for outsiders, tribeless elves have a strong distrust for generally everyone. While tribal elves have an "us and them" philosophy, tribeless elves have a "me and them" philosophy.

...

Who Do Elves Trust?

An elf who is born without a tribe would, because they has no-one else to identify with, have an overwhelming "me" versus "them" mentality. The "them" to elves is outsiders, everyone who is not part of the tribe, the individual, or the trusted social circle. As much as elves have an enhanced sense of cohesion for their own tribe, they have a decreased sense of it for outsiders! The word paranoia is perhaps not too strong to define how elves see outsiders.

None of this seems too silly to me, so I'm going to go ahead and say that this documentation ("The Elven Persona," found under the Racial Roleplay section of the website) is still valid.

[spawnloser]

Yeah, and most of the documentation says they come from tribes.  Tribeless elves are mentioned, but how many times does it say that that they are born that way?  Most of the documentation suggests that they would have to be separated from a tribe by the tribe being wiped out or some other drastic measure.  I'm saying that all those drastic measures are fine, but the only drastic measure anyone ever uses is, "My tribe was wiped out."  That or they don't give a reason for why they are tribeless.  They just are.  I find that a cheap cop-out, no matter what little lines of the documentation are taken out of context.

Yes, and that's what I said before.  You can take anything from the documentation you'd like to back up what you say, because you're doing it out of context.  I still maintain that if you aren't taking every individual sentenced literally and look for a better understanding of the game world, every elf being tribeless means they may as well be tall, skinny humans.  I still maintain that if you understand the documentation, you'll try to play a real elf and come from some tribe and actually understand what it is to be an elf instead of taking the cheap cop-out way of doing things.

You know, they used to allow 'tribeless' desert elves too.  They stopped that.  I can't wait until the staff finally decides the same for all elves instead of just the ones with the greater coded benefits.

[spicemustflow]

Cop out? Playing a tribeless elf is much harder than being in a tribe. Harder to roleplay and harder to stay alive.

Also, not all tribes need to number hundreds of members. There are plenty of tribes that are closer to big families, so you don't need some cataclysm or Borsail raid to wipe the whole tribe away. A war over a spice selling place would do just fine.

Elves are not part of some hive mind, so while a tribeless elf will face much harder time, from psychological and existential point of view, he is not less of an elf then his tribal kin. 

[Eloran]

Cop out? Playing a tribeless elf is much harder than being in a tribe. Harder to roleplay and harder to stay alive.

On this note, I disagree.

From an OOC standpoint, it is extremely hard to stay in the boundaries and mindset established by a tribe. You are bound by a culture and history that has existed for hundreds of years before your character even came into existence. You must adhere to the documentation in order to play a believable tribal elf.

In order to play a Broken Ear you...just play an elf without a tribe. You have no mindset to adhere to, other than that of what it means to be an elf in general.

Playing in a tribe is much harder, and in the end, much, much more fulfilling than playing alone.

Harder to stay alive as a tribeless runner? Perhaps...harder to roleplay? I heartily disagree.

[spicemustflow]

Harder to roleplay in the sense that many people (I'm basing this on myself obviously, not on some kind of player wide survey) have trouble with elven tests of trusts. They last very long, are very complicated and even dangerous, and it's a bonus if you can come up with something creative and not use the examples from the docs. And players need and want in game friends, lovers and allies as fast as possible.

When you play in tribe, you have all of this solved from the start. And as for having trouble playing the tribal mindset correctly, well, they're all elves after all, and share the same core values. And, besides, people chose the tribe whose culture and mindset they like most of the time.

[Fathi]

In order to play a Broken Ear you...just play an elf without a tribe. You have no mindset to adhere to, other than that of what it means to be an elf in general.

I would think a well-played elf who lost their tribe somehow or was separated from them would still adhere to their old tribe's mindset. Or at least adhere to it as much as he or she could, given their circumstances. Like Spawn said, they still have to come from somewhere. Separation from the tribe wouldn't equal separation from its mindset.

[titansfan]

I, personally, have played quite a few tribeless elves. They all turned out to be pretty nasty both mind and spirit. As far as you seeing well played city elves...how can you see what's going on in their heads. Sure they are acting nice or even giving stuff away but inside they are really just using and persuading you. Every elf I've played has been "nice" to a human or even a dwarf, but in the long run I either ended up screwing them over or killing them. Really a well-played c-elf shouldn't be apparent...really I dislike people syaing how they don't see this or that IG when really they hardly spend any time around these players in the first place. The one time you see a player, you think he's doing it wrong but truly he's doing everything right for his plans. If you really want to complain that much about there being no -correctly- played c-elves....play one yourself and show us all.

[spawnloser]

Also, not all tribes need to number hundreds of members. There are plenty of tribes that are closer to big families, so you don't need some cataclysm or Borsail raid to wipe the whole tribe away. A war over a spice selling place would do just fine.

You don't realize it, but you're arguing my side here.  Big families?  Sure, it's a tribe.  Document it in your initial bio entry and expand upon it in further bio entries and stick by that documentation that you've begun.  Perhaps recruit people to play a few other members?  Maybe your family/tribe will grow and maybe it won't.  Absorb those that have lost tribes in...

...but when it all comes down to it, every elf should have a tribe, no matter how small that tribe.  That tribe should have as much documentation, in the end and if it survives, as any of the coded tribes.  There is history, and even if your character isn't aware of it, YOU should be aware of it.

[Thunkkin]

I think two separate issues are being confused here.

Issue #1: It is a good RP practice to flesh out your character's family background.  Regardless of their current social and familial situation, it's a good RP practice to know where they came from and how growing up shaped their personality, goals, etc.

Issue #2: It is a poor RP practice if you develop a c-elf who does not have a tribe.  It is not possible for a small tribe to suffer deaths until only one member remains.

Assuming that if #1 is true, #2 must be true, is not logical.  I don't think anyone is arguing about #1.  So why not just present evidence about #2?

[Jingo]

There are outcasts too. For violations real and imagined.

Plagues and starvation might wipe out all but a few.

Tribes may split in the city and then die out by sheer natural attrition. Probably leaving a few tribeless orphans.

None of these are hard to imagine. The hard part is justifying playing a city-elf in the first place when playing a desert-elf is so much more rewarding.

[Eloran]

I would think a well-played elf who lost their tribe somehow or was separated from them would still adhere to their old tribe's mindset. Or at least adhere to it as much as he or she could, given their circumstances. Like Spawn said, they still have to come from somewhere. Separation from the tribe wouldn't equal separation from its mindset.

You'd like to think so, Fathi. All too often, though, I've watched Broken Ears just run around killing shit, skill maxing, getting buff and rich, and then...doing nothing.

I know not all players would do this, but it is frequent. Thank Christ the staff pretty much force you to join a tribe, unless you special app.

Every tribeless elf I've interacted with has failed to detail their former tribe, why their tribeless (beyond the usual "a band of gith murdered them all in a raid" shtick) and, for that matter, any form of a tribal mindset. They were essentially just c.elves without a tribe that happened to have bumped mvs.

[Thunkkin]

Every tribeless elf I've interacted with has failed to detail their former tribe, why their tribeless (beyond the usual "a band of gith murdered them all in a raid" shtick) and, for that matter, any form of a tribal mindset. They were essentially just c.elves without a tribe that happened to have bumped mvs.

So, you're arguing again about how c-elves should write family/tribal backgrounds.

Yes.  You are right.

I still haven't seen evidence that says that tribeless c-elves go against documentation or ipso facto represent poor RP and a poor understanding of the documents.

[loopylobes]

I'm thinking that the lack of playerbase (I'm off-peak) would make being in a tribe quite difficult. I don't think it's worth playing a C-elf, i'd probably justr feel really cheap..

[Eloran]

I still haven't seen evidence that says that tribeless c-elves go against documentation or ipso facto represent poor RP and a poor understanding of the documents.

In theory, they're cool.

In practice, not so much.

Trust me. I know no amount of anecdotal evidence I throw at you will amount to a hill of beans in your eyes, but I try.  

Staff have been pretty adamant about not allowing tribeless elves into the game, so any discussion about the topic is rather moot.

If you'd like, I could attempt to dig up these posts.

[Eloran]

I'm thinking that the lack of playerbase (I'm off-peak) would make being in a tribe quite difficult. I don't think it's worth playing a C-elf, i'd probably justr feel really cheap..

Don't let being off-peak stop you from creating a city elf, by all means.

The last city elf I had was from a tribe with extensive documentation written by myself and a friend.

Have fun with it. Who knows where it'll lead you.

[loopylobes]

I can't post what I want to because it would be IG detail about my character.. But I made a C-elf belonging to no tribe, and It was accepted. Feeling kind of stuck.

[Eloran]

I can't post what I want to because it would be IG detail about my character.. But I made a C-elf belonging to no tribe, and It was accepted. Feeling kind of stuck.

City elves are not necessarily held to the same standards at times as desert elves, likely because of the lack of coded tribes.

I suggest you just begin detailing the tribe and start fleshing it out with your character, unless, of course, you've been adamant about not having a tribe until this point.

[loopylobes]

I've been pretty sure about not having a tribe, detailed in my characters background. I didn't know that tribeless elves were so different or whatever.

Would it be good RP to try and start a new clan? I'd imagine this to be difficult, I mean, you can't go to any other elf and just say "Wanna join my tribe?" Can you?

[Eloran]

Would it be good RP to try and start a new clan? I'd imagine this to be difficult, I mean, you can't go to any other elf and just say "Wanna join my tribe?" Can you?

Clans != tribes

And no, you can't just invite any ole elf into your tribe.

What could be really fun and interesting is if you did in fact start your own tribe by developing documentation throughout your character's life. Say, for instance, you begin stealing younger elven children from the warrens/alleys of wherever you live to begin populating your little coterie. They would become virtual characters that you manipulate into stealing for you, perhaps, until they are of age to mate. It would take untold years, but with enough work you could in fact create your own tribe through your character's actions.

I just prefer seeing players flesh out existing tribes or virtual ones, if they're a city elf. I've not seen many well-played tribeless elves in my time here.

[loopylobes]

Which is what I'm worried about; RPing a C-Elf badly. Then again, a lot of humans have been treating me as another human, no rascism or anything, even buying me food and water.. No sneering or anything. Friendly!

[Armaddict]

Humans are prey.  They trust too easily.

[spawnloser]

Which is what I'm worried about; RPing a C-Elf badly. Then again, a lot of humans have been treating me as another human, no rascism or anything, even buying me food and water.. No sneering or anything. Friendly!

So deny that assistance!  They're obviously trying to lure you into complacency so that they can dupe you into doing what they want you to do!  Manipulate them into doing what you want them to do so that your character can accomplish his/her own goals.  Maybe you could accept their assistance with the plan to lure them further in by confusing them into thinking that you're as pathetic as you seem, then lead them to their deaths so that you can harvest their belongings for the good of the tribe!

[loopylobes]

This is what I need, insight into the elf mindset. Thanks ! 

[Armaddict]

Yeah.  Look at them incredulously.  If they offer you water, you should be suspecting that water is poison.  You should be suspecting ulterior motives.  Investigate, delve into the head of whoever is being nice for no reason.  If you find out they really -are- just being nice?  Awesome.  This one will be -easy- to scam.

[Eloran]

If someone were offering me free stuff as an elf, I'd take it in a heartbeat, and laugh internally. Not my fault they're too trusting. 

Most of my elves always come into a situation aiming to get something for free. They're always in a scam, no matter HOW small said scam is.

This stems from their natural pride and longing to con others. Stealing is an art.

If your elf wouldn't take charity because he's too prideful, that's awesome.

If your elf would take charity because he deems the situation an easy scam, that's awesome.

There are a multitude of avenues for you to take.

Good luck, and enjoy.

[Dar]

Which is what I'm worried about; RPing a C-Elf badly. Then again, a lot of humans have been treating me as another human, no rascism or anything, even buying me food and water.. No sneering or anything. Friendly!

So deny that assistance!  They're obviously trying to lure you into complacency so that they can dupe you into doing what they want you to do!  Manipulate them into doing what you want them to do so that your character can accomplish his/her own goals.  Maybe you could accept their assistance with the plan to lure them further in by confusing them into thinking that you're as pathetic as you seem, then lead them to their deaths so that you can harvest their belongings for the good of the tribe!

Whoa. There is being paranoid, and there is purposefully pissing people off who can possibly have you killed.  I would say ... trust the elves to be elves, and help them by treating elves like they deserve.  Elves are not magickers, they're not so damn extremely unbelievably useful/poweful/connected, that being mean to them might mean death for you. So be goddamn mean to them. But if people are nice, it would ... in my opinion, be 'against' theme for the celf not to use that to their advantage.  If an HG comes and gives me all of his coins, I'm not going to say no. And what is humanity to celves if not a collection of HGs?

[ibusoe]

I dunno, I've just never seen a well done city elf, ever.

Recently, I agree. However, I can count a number of very well-played c-elves in the past. Mostly from the Rinth and one from Tuluk. The minumum requirement to be considered being that they lasted a RL month at least.

Basically, I think that playing an elf would be a good way to maintain a certain degree of anonymity.  Most humans wouldn't want to get close enough to smell you, and besides all elves look alike, don't they?

Yeah, I can definitely agree with that.  It's really hard to make a city elf last for a while.  Mostly it's because of the humans that RP around them.  People seem to play on the assumption that all elves must be gangsters, when realistically few elves would have these sorts of social connections or skill level. 

I think that if humans were better played, 60% would think that they couldn't have any reason to look at en elf except to spit on one.  Another 30% would be afraid to talk to elves (period) while secretly wishing they had the courage to pick on them. 

Oh, and I also like the below post.

An elf in a clan (presumming the elf was allowed into the clan in the first place) could be there for a few reasons.
1) Either they join because they are living for themselves (tribeless) and joining the clan further improves their chance of surviving.
2) Because they are about to pull a scam for their tribe.
3) They (the tribeless elves) identify best with the clan, and have come to view the clan (or members within that clan) like trusted members of their (newfound) tribe.

Depending on which of those three your elf falls into would determine how your elf would react to the clan.

Edit:  Oh yeah, and PC reaction against PC theft is overly harsh.

[Dar]

I dont understand. Why would they be afraid to talk to an elf? If you work all day, hard labor, to eek out a living, you need to release some steam. And here you have elves on whom you can pick at, and know that majority of the tavern would support 'you' if it comes to violence.

You dont have to be a 'ganster' to steal, and all elves steal. Even if you as elf never stole in your life and always gave to charity, you still stole. Infact, a 'ganster' elf might end up garnering more respect then a honest, unaffiliated elf.

[ibusoe]

I dont understand. Why would they be afraid to talk to an elf? If you work all day, hard labor, to eek out a living, you need to release some steam. And here you have elves on whom you can pick at, and know that majority of the tavern would support 'you' if it comes to violence.

Naw, you have a point buddy.  But you're probably braver than average.  Many people fear criminals of all description (picture a bunch of old Victorian Ladies sitting around a parlor).

[SMuz]

On clanless elves, I've always assumed that PCs are like NPCs - but something special made them stand out. IMHO, most thieves, burglars, and untribed elves would be PCs simply because their chosen way of life drastically lowers their life span and inspires them to doing something they won't otherwise do. An untribed elf is rare, so rare and unique that most would-be PCs. Similar applies to the other cliche about a person being orphaned, or leaving his family because of an argument/abuse/relative dying.

Elves are the most popular non-human race in the world, right? The three or so untribed PC elves vs the massive amounts of vNPC tribal elves looks like a logical ratio.

Which is what I'm worried about; RPing a C-Elf badly. Then again, a lot of humans have been treating me as another human, no rascism or anything, even buying me food and water.. No sneering or anything. Friendly!

Dude, why does your elf get free food and water? I could play like a human warrior and not get either. I'd say that something to definitely be paranoid of

[SmashedTregil]

I dont understand. Why would they be afraid to talk to an elf? If you work all day, hard labor, to eek out a living, you need to release some steam. And here you have elves on whom you can pick at, and know that majority of the tavern would support 'you' if it comes to violence.

Naw, you have a point buddy.  But you're probably braver than average.  Many people fear criminals of all description (picture a bunch of old Victorian Ladies sitting around a parlor).

Those ... 'ladies' would be afraid of everyone in Gaj, elf or no elf. Hell, they'd take a look at Vennant's excuse for a clean mug and have themselves a fainting streak. Welcome to the grit.

[spicemustflow]

Also, not all tribes need to number hundreds of members. There are plenty of tribes that are closer to big families, so you don't need some cataclysm or Borsail raid to wipe the whole tribe away. A war over a spice selling place would do just fine.

You don't realize it, but you're arguing my side here.  Big families?  Sure, it's a tribe.  Document it in your initial bio entry and expand upon it in further bio entries and stick by that documentation that you've begun.  Perhaps recruit people to play a few other members?  Maybe your family/tribe will grow and maybe it won't.  Absorb those that have lost tribes in...

...but when it all comes down to it, every elf should have a tribe, no matter how small that tribe.  That tribe should have as much documentation, in the end and if it survives, as any of the coded tribes.  There is history, and even if your character isn't aware of it, YOU should be aware of it.

You're saying that it's inconceivable for an elf to have absolutely no idea about his former tribes beliefs and customs? That it's against the docs to state that in your bio? If so, I'm definitely not arguing your side.

I dont understand. Why would they be afraid to talk to an elf? If you work all day, hard labor, to eek out a living, you need to release some steam. And here you have elves on whom you can pick at, and know that majority of the tavern would support 'you' if it comes to violence.

No, you can't release some steam when almost half of any tavern is filled by elves. Sure, they probably won't help someone not belonging to their tribe, but you don't know that. Humans and elves have been living together for thousands of years. They're not in love, sure, but if every elf (or a majority of elves) would ruin or murder a human, as someone here said, they would have been put to the torch by the Templarate a long time ago. The period of adapting to city life and its norms was long ago for any tribe that still survives.

As for humans, it's hard to freak out at an elf if every second person you see on your way to the stables you work in is an elf. I'm not arguing for cities being multicultural paradises of tolerance, far from it, but they're not really in the state of civil war.

[Nile]

If you have a problem with the city elf tribes being closed, bitch about them being closed to the appropriate staff.

Oh, and I never said you had to have a coded clan/tribe.  I said you'd better, ffs, put some thought into your tribe and KNOW as much about your virtual tribe as you would know about your coded tribe if you were in one.  The lamer than a parapalegic with a sprained ankle "my tribe was wiped out" EXCUSE is old... and not only that, it's pathetic and cheesy and cliche.

If you aren't going to play an elf as a member of a tribe, you may as well special app a human with a buffed agility, because that's what you're doing.  I despise running into city elves in game because they all act like tall, skinny humans.

nerd.

[RogueGunslinger]

If you have a problem with the city elf tribes being closed, bitch about them being closed to the appropriate staff.

Oh, and I never said you had to have a coded clan/tribe.  I said you'd better, ffs, put some thought into your tribe and KNOW as much about your virtual tribe as you would know about your coded tribe if you were in one.  The lamer than a parapalegic with a sprained ankle "my tribe was wiped out" EXCUSE is old... and not only that, it's pathetic and cheesy and cliche.

If you aren't going to play an elf as a member of a tribe, you may as well special app a human with a buffed agility, because that's what you're doing.  I despise running into city elves in game because they all act like tall, skinny humans.

I guess when you've gotten that many years playing, you get to tell people how to play. Huh. I want to be like spawnloser when I grow up, he's so cool.

[musashi]

Yeah.  Look at them incredulously.  If they offer you water, you should be suspecting that water is poison.  You should be suspecting ulterior motives.  Investigate, delve into the head of whoever is being nice for no reason.  If you find out they really -are- just being nice?  Awesome.  This one will be -easy- to scam.

I think that should be more of a half-elf mentality.

[Gunnerblaster]

Yeah.  Look at them incredulously.  If they offer you water, you should be suspecting that water is poison.  You should be suspecting ulterior motives.  Investigate, delve into the head of whoever is being nice for no reason.  If you find out they really -are- just being nice?  Awesome.  This one will be -easy- to scam.

I think that should be more of a half-elf mentality.

Well, unless it's someone of the elf's immediate family or 'trusted few' - I'm pretty sure that is more elf then half-elf.

[NoteworthyFellow]

Yeah.  Look at them incredulously.  If they offer you water, you should be suspecting that water is poison.  You should be suspecting ulterior motives.  Investigate, delve into the head of whoever is being nice for no reason.  If you find out they really -are- just being nice?  Awesome.  This one will be -easy- to scam.

I think that should be more of a half-elf mentality.

I think half-elves aren't really as paranoid as that.  A half-elf would accept the water, perhaps marvel at the kindness, maybe go out of their way to earn more kindness, then as soon as they start to feel like they might be depending on the person, or even look like they're depending on the person, they recoil in disgust of their own weakness, because they don't need someone else.  They can do just fine on their own.

[Synthesis]

lol, every time someone mentions the half-elf independent streak, I think of this:

[musashi]

Yeah.  Look at them incredulously.  If they offer you water, you should be suspecting that water is poison.  You should be suspecting ulterior motives.  Investigate, delve into the head of whoever is being nice for no reason.  If you find out they really -are- just being nice?  Awesome.  This one will be -easy- to scam.

I think that should be more of a half-elf mentality.

Well, unless it's someone of the elf's immediate family or 'trusted few' - I'm pretty sure that is more elf then half-elf.

I just buy into this mentality as being more elven:

If someone were offering me free stuff as an elf, I'd take it in a heartbeat, and laugh internally. Not my fault they're too trusting. 

Most of my elves always come into a situation aiming to get something for free. They're always in a scam, no matter HOW small said scam is.

This stems from their natural pride and longing to con others. Stealing is an art.

If your elf wouldn't take charity because he's too prideful, that's awesome.

If your elf would take charity because he deems the situation an easy scam, that's awesome.

There are a multitude of avenues for you to take.

Good luck, and enjoy.

[spawnloser]

If you have a problem with the city elf tribes being closed, bitch about them being closed to the appropriate staff.

Oh, and I never said you had to have a coded clan/tribe.  I said you'd better, ffs, put some thought into your tribe and KNOW as much about your virtual tribe as you would know about your coded tribe if you were in one.  The lamer than a parapalegic with a sprained ankle "my tribe was wiped out" EXCUSE is old... and not only that, it's pathetic and cheesy and cliche.

If you aren't going to play an elf as a member of a tribe, you may as well special app a human with a buffed agility, because that's what you're doing.  I despise running into city elves in game because they all act like tall, skinny humans.

I guess when you've gotten that many years playing, you get to tell people how to play. Huh. I want to be like spawnloser when I grow up, he's so cool.

Yeah, I get that a lot... flamed/trolled, I mean.

[RogueGunslinger]

If you have a problem with the city elf tribes being closed, bitch about them being closed to the appropriate staff.

Oh, and I never said you had to have a coded clan/tribe.  I said you'd better, ffs, put some thought into your tribe and KNOW as much about your virtual tribe as you would know about your coded tribe if you were in one.  The lamer than a parapalegic with a sprained ankle "my tribe was wiped out" EXCUSE is old... and not only that, it's pathetic and cheesy and cliche.

If you aren't going to play an elf as a member of a tribe, you may as well special app a human with a buffed agility, because that's what you're doing.  I despise running into city elves in game because they all act like tall, skinny humans.

I guess when you've gotten that many years playing, you get to tell people how to play. Huh. I want to be like spawnloser when I grow up, he's so cool.

Yeah, I get that a lot... flamed/trolled, I mean.

It happens to me sometimes too, generally when I'm flaming/trolling.

[spawnloser]

It happens to me sometimes too, generally when I'm flaming/trolling.

Therein lies the difference.  I was voicing opinion on what it is to be an elf and that people that don't go the extra mile will never be seen for going the extra mile.

...and just to make sure I add something on topic...

Thinking about this, I came up with a good way to describe how an elf should see a human in as few words as possible:  a mark.

[RogueGunslinger]

It happens to me sometimes too, generally when I'm flaming/trolling.

Therein lies the difference.  I was voicing opinion on what it is to be an elf and that people that don't go the extra mile will never be seen for going the extra mile.

You're right, I was off base on that one.

[Eloran]

Thinking about this, I came up with a good way to describe how an elf should see a human in as few words as possible:  a mark.

That's probably how an elf I'd play views everyone, human or not. It's fun that way.

[a strange shadow]

Because it can't be said enough:

There is no "brotherhood of elves". If you aren't tribe, you're an outsider.

[loopylobes]

I think Im getting the bigger picture here, becoming more understanding of the Elf mindset and persona, based on different factors. This thread will likely enrichen my roleplay on Arm! Keep postin' !

[Twilight]

I really hate the retcon that the staff did on the elven docs prior to D-elves getting implemented.

The two things I wish they hadn't had taken out:

1.  Elves were elves, and it specifically mentioned that tribes were continually shifting in and out of the cities.  Yes, city elf tribes had been desert elf tribes and may be so again.  It may have mentioned some tribes being present in both the city and the desert, although that may have been my interpretation.

2.  Tribes mentioned as being constantly merging and breaking apart.  I have yet to see a single piece of documentation with current tribes on how they would merge with another tribe, and this would be important, I think, given how they distrust.

Unfortunately, these bits disappeared from the documentation, as far as I can recall around when D-elves got implemented.  I think these bits would have shifted how city elves could be played.  Oh well.

Vote "No Retcon in Arm2"!

[Marauder Moe]

I would think that two tribes could merge if they started interbreeding a lot.  A child with parents from two tribes might regard both tribes as their tribe.

[Eloran]

I would think that two tribes could merge if they started interbreeding a lot.  A child with parents from two tribes might regard both tribes as their tribe.

This has happened to some extent in the past, both virtually and in game.