How elves regard humans?

[ibusoe]

It's pretty easy to get wtfpwned if an elf shows his elven nature right off the bat, just to prove that elves are different in my opinion.  Condescending behavior to humans? Forget that. You can feel superior, think superior, talk superior shit with your elven tribemates in private, behind a locked door, with scan and barrier up, but in public ? In public an elf is the most accomodating, most gentle, most trustworthy and helpful person you can ever meet. Unless he's not alone and you're in his territory ...

I like this.

[Jingo]

Lets not forget that in the right circumstances, and given enough time, an elf might be the most loyal companion a human has ever had. It would be pretty rare though.

[Semper]

I dunno, I've just never seen a well done city elf, ever.

Recently, I agree. However, I can count a number of very well-played c-elves in the past. Mostly from the Rinth and one from Tuluk. The minumum requirement to be considered being that they lasted a RL month at least.

To be honest though, I feel the only variation that elves bring to the game are the coded benefits and the tribal roleplay. Humans can be played like an elf. Elves can be played like some humans. At least with a dwarf, the dwarven focus allows them to do things sane humans often won't pursue for very long. If all elves were suddenly turned into humans, but still retained their documentation, I think not very much at all would be taken from the game.

The only noticeable difference that elves have which humans cannot have are that they are taller, more agile, and "supposedly" wiser than the human counterpart. Plus some additional coded perks to some. That an the whole tribal fanatisism aspect which I feel is an IG excuse for player-run families.

Playing the devils advocate, it's generally frowned upon players wanting to recruit for their family having trust straight from the start, but it happens all the time with elven tribes. Isn't this a double standard?
/derail

To reply to the OP, Elves regard humans like a con artist would regard their mark. Set up the perfect front and just wait for the right opportunity to pull the floor from under their targets. Because of the elven persona, the amount of time elves have been around, and conditional logic, human's have come to realize/suspect what happens when you deal with elves, which is why human's deal with elves with racism, scorn, and a large degree of mistrust and hate.

An elf in a clan (presumming the elf was allowed into the clan in the first place) could be there for a few reasons.
1) Either they join because they are living for themselves (tribeless) and joining the clan further improves their chance of surviving.
2) Because they are about to pull a scam for their tribe.
3) They (the tribeless elves) identify best with the clan, and have come to view the clan (or members within that clan) like trusted members of their (newfound) tribe.

Depending on which of those three your elf falls into would determine how your elf would react to the clan.

[spawnloser]

Psh.  They still had to come from somewhere.

I still maintain that people playing city elves aren't playing elves.  99% of city elves I see are tall, skinny humans.

Oh, and here, if we're going to quote one-liners from the docs to justify silly things, why not continue?

Water mages are highly employable

Stone mages may be employed as part of an army or scouting group, for they are well able to weave protective magicks around their companions. Stone mages can also be invaluable as travelling companions because of their abilities to conjure mounts and construct shelters for rests during long journeys. Stone mages are, however, the most druidic of all the mages, and usually come to appreciate solitude and long quiet communes with the earth.

Druidic?  LOL!

Yeah, quoting one line out of the documentation to support your argument is pointless.  If you read the entirety of the documentation instead of one line and you understand what it is to be an elf, you'll ignore that one line you quoted.

[spicemustflow]

Ok, then go and read entire elf roleplay docs. Tribeless elves and their outlook on life are mentioned in more than 'one silly outdated one-liner'.

[NoteworthyFellow]

On the topic of tribeless elves:

What Does Not Being a Tribal Elf Mean?

While elves who are born and raised within the culture their tribe provides them, those who are born without a tribe (or lose their tribe, for whatever reasons) adopt a new mentality. Tribal elves have a strong sense of their family, meaning that as an individual they usually feel themselves as an extension or a working gear in the system that is their tribe. Elves who are without tribes have a strong sense of self, and generally their own presence will replace that of the tribe. Tribal elves have a strong distrust for outsiders, tribeless elves have a strong distrust for generally everyone. While tribal elves have an "us and them" philosophy, tribeless elves have a "me and them" philosophy.

...

Who Do Elves Trust?

An elf who is born without a tribe would, because they has no-one else to identify with, have an overwhelming "me" versus "them" mentality. The "them" to elves is outsiders, everyone who is not part of the tribe, the individual, or the trusted social circle. As much as elves have an enhanced sense of cohesion for their own tribe, they have a decreased sense of it for outsiders! The word paranoia is perhaps not too strong to define how elves see outsiders.

None of this seems too silly to me, so I'm going to go ahead and say that this documentation ("The Elven Persona," found under the Racial Roleplay section of the website) is still valid.

[spawnloser]

Yeah, and most of the documentation says they come from tribes.  Tribeless elves are mentioned, but how many times does it say that that they are born that way?  Most of the documentation suggests that they would have to be separated from a tribe by the tribe being wiped out or some other drastic measure.  I'm saying that all those drastic measures are fine, but the only drastic measure anyone ever uses is, "My tribe was wiped out."  That or they don't give a reason for why they are tribeless.  They just are.  I find that a cheap cop-out, no matter what little lines of the documentation are taken out of context.

Yes, and that's what I said before.  You can take anything from the documentation you'd like to back up what you say, because you're doing it out of context.  I still maintain that if you aren't taking every individual sentenced literally and look for a better understanding of the game world, every elf being tribeless means they may as well be tall, skinny humans.  I still maintain that if you understand the documentation, you'll try to play a real elf and come from some tribe and actually understand what it is to be an elf instead of taking the cheap cop-out way of doing things.

You know, they used to allow 'tribeless' desert elves too.  They stopped that.  I can't wait until the staff finally decides the same for all elves instead of just the ones with the greater coded benefits.

[spicemustflow]

Cop out? Playing a tribeless elf is much harder than being in a tribe. Harder to roleplay and harder to stay alive.

Also, not all tribes need to number hundreds of members. There are plenty of tribes that are closer to big families, so you don't need some cataclysm or Borsail raid to wipe the whole tribe away. A war over a spice selling place would do just fine.

Elves are not part of some hive mind, so while a tribeless elf will face much harder time, from psychological and existential point of view, he is not less of an elf then his tribal kin. 

[Eloran]

Cop out? Playing a tribeless elf is much harder than being in a tribe. Harder to roleplay and harder to stay alive.

On this note, I disagree.

From an OOC standpoint, it is extremely hard to stay in the boundaries and mindset established by a tribe. You are bound by a culture and history that has existed for hundreds of years before your character even came into existence. You must adhere to the documentation in order to play a believable tribal elf.

In order to play a Broken Ear you...just play an elf without a tribe. You have no mindset to adhere to, other than that of what it means to be an elf in general.

Playing in a tribe is much harder, and in the end, much, much more fulfilling than playing alone.

Harder to stay alive as a tribeless runner? Perhaps...harder to roleplay? I heartily disagree.

[spicemustflow]

Harder to roleplay in the sense that many people (I'm basing this on myself obviously, not on some kind of player wide survey) have trouble with elven tests of trusts. They last very long, are very complicated and even dangerous, and it's a bonus if you can come up with something creative and not use the examples from the docs. And players need and want in game friends, lovers and allies as fast as possible.

When you play in tribe, you have all of this solved from the start. And as for having trouble playing the tribal mindset correctly, well, they're all elves after all, and share the same core values. And, besides, people chose the tribe whose culture and mindset they like most of the time.

[Fathi]

In order to play a Broken Ear you...just play an elf without a tribe. You have no mindset to adhere to, other than that of what it means to be an elf in general.

I would think a well-played elf who lost their tribe somehow or was separated from them would still adhere to their old tribe's mindset. Or at least adhere to it as much as he or she could, given their circumstances. Like Spawn said, they still have to come from somewhere. Separation from the tribe wouldn't equal separation from its mindset.

[titansfan]

I, personally, have played quite a few tribeless elves. They all turned out to be pretty nasty both mind and spirit. As far as you seeing well played city elves...how can you see what's going on in their heads. Sure they are acting nice or even giving stuff away but inside they are really just using and persuading you. Every elf I've played has been "nice" to a human or even a dwarf, but in the long run I either ended up screwing them over or killing them. Really a well-played c-elf shouldn't be apparent...really I dislike people syaing how they don't see this or that IG when really they hardly spend any time around these players in the first place. The one time you see a player, you think he's doing it wrong but truly he's doing everything right for his plans. If you really want to complain that much about there being no -correctly- played c-elves....play one yourself and show us all.

[spawnloser]

Also, not all tribes need to number hundreds of members. There are plenty of tribes that are closer to big families, so you don't need some cataclysm or Borsail raid to wipe the whole tribe away. A war over a spice selling place would do just fine.

You don't realize it, but you're arguing my side here.  Big families?  Sure, it's a tribe.  Document it in your initial bio entry and expand upon it in further bio entries and stick by that documentation that you've begun.  Perhaps recruit people to play a few other members?  Maybe your family/tribe will grow and maybe it won't.  Absorb those that have lost tribes in...

...but when it all comes down to it, every elf should have a tribe, no matter how small that tribe.  That tribe should have as much documentation, in the end and if it survives, as any of the coded tribes.  There is history, and even if your character isn't aware of it, YOU should be aware of it.

[Thunkkin]

I think two separate issues are being confused here.

Issue #1: It is a good RP practice to flesh out your character's family background.  Regardless of their current social and familial situation, it's a good RP practice to know where they came from and how growing up shaped their personality, goals, etc.

Issue #2: It is a poor RP practice if you develop a c-elf who does not have a tribe.  It is not possible for a small tribe to suffer deaths until only one member remains.

Assuming that if #1 is true, #2 must be true, is not logical.  I don't think anyone is arguing about #1.  So why not just present evidence about #2?

[Jingo]

There are outcasts too. For violations real and imagined.

Plagues and starvation might wipe out all but a few.

Tribes may split in the city and then die out by sheer natural attrition. Probably leaving a few tribeless orphans.

None of these are hard to imagine. The hard part is justifying playing a city-elf in the first place when playing a desert-elf is so much more rewarding.

[Eloran]

I would think a well-played elf who lost their tribe somehow or was separated from them would still adhere to their old tribe's mindset. Or at least adhere to it as much as he or she could, given their circumstances. Like Spawn said, they still have to come from somewhere. Separation from the tribe wouldn't equal separation from its mindset.

You'd like to think so, Fathi. All too often, though, I've watched Broken Ears just run around killing shit, skill maxing, getting buff and rich, and then...doing nothing.

I know not all players would do this, but it is frequent. Thank Christ the staff pretty much force you to join a tribe, unless you special app.

Every tribeless elf I've interacted with has failed to detail their former tribe, why their tribeless (beyond the usual "a band of gith murdered them all in a raid" shtick) and, for that matter, any form of a tribal mindset. They were essentially just c.elves without a tribe that happened to have bumped mvs.

[Thunkkin]

Every tribeless elf I've interacted with has failed to detail their former tribe, why their tribeless (beyond the usual "a band of gith murdered them all in a raid" shtick) and, for that matter, any form of a tribal mindset. They were essentially just c.elves without a tribe that happened to have bumped mvs.

So, you're arguing again about how c-elves should write family/tribal backgrounds.

Yes.  You are right.

I still haven't seen evidence that says that tribeless c-elves go against documentation or ipso facto represent poor RP and a poor understanding of the documents.

[loopylobes]

I'm thinking that the lack of playerbase (I'm off-peak) would make being in a tribe quite difficult. I don't think it's worth playing a C-elf, i'd probably justr feel really cheap..

[Eloran]

I still haven't seen evidence that says that tribeless c-elves go against documentation or ipso facto represent poor RP and a poor understanding of the documents.

In theory, they're cool.

In practice, not so much.

Trust me. I know no amount of anecdotal evidence I throw at you will amount to a hill of beans in your eyes, but I try.  

Staff have been pretty adamant about not allowing tribeless elves into the game, so any discussion about the topic is rather moot.

If you'd like, I could attempt to dig up these posts.

[Eloran]

I'm thinking that the lack of playerbase (I'm off-peak) would make being in a tribe quite difficult. I don't think it's worth playing a C-elf, i'd probably justr feel really cheap..

Don't let being off-peak stop you from creating a city elf, by all means.

The last city elf I had was from a tribe with extensive documentation written by myself and a friend.

Have fun with it. Who knows where it'll lead you.

[loopylobes]

I can't post what I want to because it would be IG detail about my character.. But I made a C-elf belonging to no tribe, and It was accepted. Feeling kind of stuck.

[Eloran]

I can't post what I want to because it would be IG detail about my character.. But I made a C-elf belonging to no tribe, and It was accepted. Feeling kind of stuck.

City elves are not necessarily held to the same standards at times as desert elves, likely because of the lack of coded tribes.

I suggest you just begin detailing the tribe and start fleshing it out with your character, unless, of course, you've been adamant about not having a tribe until this point.

[loopylobes]

I've been pretty sure about not having a tribe, detailed in my characters background. I didn't know that tribeless elves were so different or whatever.

Would it be good RP to try and start a new clan? I'd imagine this to be difficult, I mean, you can't go to any other elf and just say "Wanna join my tribe?" Can you?

[Eloran]

Would it be good RP to try and start a new clan? I'd imagine this to be difficult, I mean, you can't go to any other elf and just say "Wanna join my tribe?" Can you?

Clans != tribes

And no, you can't just invite any ole elf into your tribe.

What could be really fun and interesting is if you did in fact start your own tribe by developing documentation throughout your character's life. Say, for instance, you begin stealing younger elven children from the warrens/alleys of wherever you live to begin populating your little coterie. They would become virtual characters that you manipulate into stealing for you, perhaps, until they are of age to mate. It would take untold years, but with enough work you could in fact create your own tribe through your character's actions.

I just prefer seeing players flesh out existing tribes or virtual ones, if they're a city elf. I've not seen many well-played tribeless elves in my time here.

[loopylobes]

Which is what I'm worried about; RPing a C-Elf badly. Then again, a lot of humans have been treating me as another human, no rascism or anything, even buying me food and water.. No sneering or anything. Friendly!