The Derth of Master Crafters

[AmandaGreathouse]

Yes Malken, if your goal is to get rich, then you can definitely do better as an independent, than as an employee of a GMH (family member mileage may vary).

It's just really REALLY sad that we players are reduced to playing characters who exist to get rich, while neglecting the prestige our characters will have by being able to say, proudly, "I am a Salarr weaponsmith." Or "I am a Kadian jeweler." Instead, there are crafters who use the GMHs as tools to learn new things, then leave and create new characters who show up out of the box knowing the recipes. We have crafters who use the GMHs as tools to rob from the compounds, or stockpile things at a discount, then leave and make a fortune with very little effort. We have crafters whose players will avoid working for the prestige, just because their players want to make sure their character is "he who dies with the most stuff."

I just think that's very sad.

This message sponsored by GMH Local 67.

While I can agree on some levels, there are other places where this is kind of flawed. There can be perfectly IC reasons which have nothing to do with coin that might cause people to not want to join merchant houses.

Also, 10,000 sid per RL week is a scary lot of coin, seriously. Maybe if it was a culmination one week of several other weeks worth of work (ie, a trade route that you've been building the products for for a few weeks).

Support your GMH's -and- your indies. After all, pc-to-pc interaction is the serious sweet-spot when you're playing a merchant.

[Ghost]

It's just really REALLY sad that we players are reduced to playing characters who exist to get rich, while neglecting the prestige our characters will have by being able to say, proudly, "I am a Salarr weaponsmith." Or "I am a Kadian jeweler." Instead, there are crafters who use the GMHs as tools to learn new things, then leave and create new characters who show up out of the box knowing the recipes.

There was a time last year when I thought it was a privilege to say "I am a Salarri".  The PCs in the clan made quite the impression that they were not just joking around, but they were go-getters. When they moved to a city/outpost, they changed the atmosphere.  I did say quite a few times by myself "I wish I was playing with these people" but could not due to the circumstances of my PC at that time. (there was one or two other clans that had good PC contribution, but Salarr was my favorite of that time)

Now that time is over, and since I am not playing anymore, I do not know if the clan is the same or if there is another clan having such PCs.

What Lizzie is saying is true in a way, yes the GMH, or noble houses, are not there to make you rich but they offer some "fringe benefits" that you can not otherwise have.  It is expected to be a huge difference to be able to wear one's clan equipment and say that you are part of the said organisation.   Yet, if being part of the clan seem like you are only wearing a different outfit and having regular payment, then clearly that is a problem how things are running and I am not sure how it can be fixed.  Being part of a clan should NOT look like a burden, it should look like a privilege.  It is a problem when an indie PC can make enough money to bribe the local templarate AND the crime organisations and still have more money/time left to get involved in things the clanned PCs may be restricted to.  
It gets sad when noble PCs get desperate to hire someone, because people figure that when they are independent, they make more money, involved in more plots, stay in contact with more people, do not have to suffer chores or get stuck because "no PC in the clan this week".  Several years ago, nobles sometimes visited local taverns to recruit guards and aides and they would have to sweet talk to a commoner because there was not anyone else in their clan, and few people were really interested.  I think Atrium served a good purpose when it was open, it was making sure at least nobles will get aides.

I do not know how the current things are going in game, and I am only  basing it all to malken's and lizzie's posts.

[Riev]

For me, I'd think being a crafter in a merchant house would net you more plots and stuff. Then again, I'm not thinking of a master crafter in weapons, but say, a master cook. You can cook -anything- you want, so when someone has a party, they want -you- to be the one to provide the dishes. Perhaps someone wants someone at the party dead. You let them in and poison a specific dish that said person will be eating.

Thats only just thinking, but maybe "Master Crafter" is something completely different. I'm kind of dumb.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Why are you not playing, Ghost?

You Fale.

[Malken]

Yes Malken, if your goal is to get rich, then you can definitely do better as an independent, than as an employee of a GMH (family member mileage may vary).

It's just really REALLY sad that we players are reduced to playing characters who exist to get rich, while neglecting the prestige our characters will have by being able to say, proudly, "I am a Salarr weaponsmith." Or "I am a Kadian jeweler." Instead, there are crafters who use the GMHs as tools to learn new things, then leave and create new characters who show up out of the box knowing the recipes. We have crafters who use the GMHs as tools to rob from the compounds, or stockpile things at a discount, then leave and make a fortune with very little effort. We have crafters whose players will avoid working for the prestige, just because their players want to make sure their character is "he who dies with the most stuff."

I just think that's very sad.

This message sponsored by GMH Local 67.

While I can agree on some levels, there are other places where this is kind of flawed. There can be perfectly IC reasons which have nothing to do with coin that might cause people to not want to join merchant houses.

Also, 10,000 sid per RL week is a scary lot of coin, seriously. Maybe if it was a culmination one week of several other weeks worth of work (ie, a trade route that you've been building the products for for a few weeks).

Support your GMH's -and- your indies. After all, pc-to-pc interaction is the serious sweet-spot when you're playing a merchant.

Oh, I hope you don't think I meant that I was making 10,000 sids a RL week, I meant that in the GMH I was in, that was usually the price asked for master crafted items, and out of the 10,000 sids, I had to fight to maybe get 20% of it,
when I could have just gotten the material required to do it all myself and without the help of the House.

Oh, and to reply to Riev, the best plots ever with my merchant came from being partisan under Chosens and Faithfuls.. I don't really recall any exciting plots from being in a GMH, but I had insanely fun adventures as a partisan, that I'll probably never get again.

[Kryos]

From what I understand, the atmosphere of high level merchanting is significantly oppressive.  Leaders that won't help the merchants acquire required goods + stifling acquisition and sale requirements = not a fun thing to do.  Why would people do something that's not fun?

[Ghost]

For me, I'd think being a crafter in a merchant house would net you more plots and stuff. Then again, I'm not thinking of a master crafter in weapons, but say, a master cook. You can cook -anything- you want, so when someone has a party, they want -you- to be the one to provide the dishes.

While it may have merit in theory, practically it does not work like than (at least, more often than not).  Assume your character is particularly good in one aspect.  What are the odds that your clan will be able to make something that will require your specialty?  How many times do you think it will happen?

I will just throw you some numbers.  Let's take your master cook as an example.  In his entire life, I would wager that a master cook of Kadius could have a chance of using his specialty ONCE that is at best.  I mean, assuming the House have a city wide opening, they might include a dinner that your master cook could contribute.  This I think will happen only once througout a life long time of staying with Kadius.

Now imagine the same master cook being independent, the chances will improve greatly.  Not only this cook can start something all by himself (such as organizing a feast about any particular event.  All he has to do is to contact to the local templarate and he won't be constrained to run this through his IG boss and the House NPCs) he can also offer his services to ALL the clans in the city.  Anytime there is a Fale party, or a Gith Massacre RPT, or a Salarr Auction or Kadian Showroom, he can simply contact to the PCs organizing the RPT and get involved.

Of course, what I am picturing here is a general case.  You can be LoD and have a street named after you, while being part of a clan.  Though, the odds are in the independents' favor, and it should not be so.

Perhaps someone wants someone at the party dead. You let them in and poison a specific dish that said person will be eating.

Unfortunately that does not work in practical situations as well.  Just think about a RPT of 10 PCs and imagine you are the cook.  Now imagine how you will realistically handle the food, line by line and how you will deliver the poison (mad props to you if you can manage that).  Then put yourself in the victim's position and how you would react if someone could (trust me they won't be able to) poison you, how you would react.  Then imagine the aftermath of this little scene and how things will resolve.
There is more constraints following this, but I guess the scene above is impossible enough to pull, that I don't need to mention anything else.

[AmandaGreathouse]

What Malken says is basically true Ghost. I just think it's a real shame that the "I can make 10,000 sids in a few RL weeks why would my character want to work for Kadius?" mindset is so prevalent among the playerbase. I KNOW I can make that much, easy. I've done it.

I was actually referring to this, but I made a mistake here and misread the time frame. And I meant for an indie, too.

Edited to clarify.

[Lizzie]

From what I understand, the atmosphere of high level merchanting is significantly oppressive.  Leaders that won't help the merchants acquire required goods + stifling acquisition and sale requirements = not a fun thing to do.  Why would people do something that's not fun?

This has -nothing- to do with the leader PCs. I think that is a HUGE misinterpretation of things. The leaders are under the same restrictions. And these restrictions make sense. If you work for Salarr as a clanned employee, you are not allowed to sell TO Salarr. You are also not allowed to sell armor or weapons to anyone else, unless you are one of the Salarr merchants. It's called a conflict of interest, and it's just as valid in the game as it is in real life. If you are making software for Microsoft, you aren't allowed to sell software to anyone else while you're doing so (and probably not for some ridiculous thing like 20 years after you leave, as well). You're also not allowed to sell software independently to MS, while you are employed by MS. It's your job to make software. You are being paid to do it. They're not gonna pay you twice for the same thing.

Salarr won't pay you twice - (salary + commission + food + water + shelter + raw materials + proprietary finished goods) + (being allowed to sell your duskhorn leather collar at their shop). They'd be paying you TWICE. That duskhorn hide belongs to Salarr, not you. You don't have the -right- to profit from it, above and beyond what the House is already giving you.

That's how it's set up. Kadius, Kurac, and Salarr ALL have rules to that effect. Some individual leader PCs might not be as strict about the rules, but those -are- the rules, and leaders who are caught violating them or encouraging others to violate them, have both IC and OOC consequences. ICly, they get yelled at, or removed, or demoted, or worse. OOCly, they might not be trusted to play a sponsored role like that again for awhile.

These rules aren't new. My first character was a Salarri, before I ever knew about these rules. I read the rules then, for Salarr. My next character was a Kuraci. I read the rules in the Kurac-only docs. When I had a PC employed by Kadius, I read the rules. Some of this stuff dates back to 2002. Nothing has changed, it's no more restrictive than it's ever been. But the -players- have learned "how to get rich" and it's made it difficult to keep interest in the GMHs as a result of it.

[Tisiphone]

But the -players- have learned "how to get rich" and it's made it difficult to keep interest in the GMHs as a result of it.

Sounds like we need the imms to switch things up.

[AmandaGreathouse]

I think this could also be helped by having more people who can hire around from GMH's. Seriously, I have yet to have a merchant who hasn't mastered at least one craft before finally finding someone from a GMH who could hire them on. Also, I don't think it would be right to 'switch things up' in order to get people to join up with GMH's. That's where the problem lies. Whether it be differences in the possible profits made (even less hiring of the Byn, more 'spamcrafting' through the low skill times to keep yourself fed, and etc.). I think it really lies in the representation (or lack thereof) in certain areas, especially at certain times of day. Not to mention the fact that a lot of hardcore patriots of their repective city-states aren't going to want to spend lots of time in the other one. (IMO)

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Under the current situation, I suspect that the GMHs, provided that nothing else changes to make employment attractive with them, should force successful indies to join or suffer. If nothing else, the perk of joining the GMHs should be 'your life, your families life, your little dog Toto's life...'

There's lots of ways to manage this. Indies will cry foul, but it's your fault for being more successful than you should be. There is a real reason that the docs state that the GMHs have monopolies, and thus basically no competition.

As a GMH Staffer, I'd create guidelines, such as 'competition must be in this market, making this much money, attracting these customers, etc' so that indies have some sorta niche, but frankly, for the most part, I think GMHs should absolutely smother indies.

[Gimfalisette]

As a GMH Staffer, I'd create guidelines, such as 'competition must be in this market, making this much money, attracting these customers, etc' so that indies have some sorta niche, but frankly, for the most part, I think GMHs should absolutely smother indies.

Yeah. Punishing people is a great way to create goodwill in the game. Let's force people into GMHs, since apparently we suck too much to make clanned life interesting. Why bother trying to create plots, adequately reward PCs, or make GMHs interesting when we can just smack players around until they cower at the GMHs' mostly-virtual might?

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Well, that's pretty much what happened to make these monopolies in the first place.

Obviously it won't create goodwill. But if Merchant Houses simply will not have any perks that appeal to players, giving them a reason to play in the Merchant Houses, then what do -you- think should happen? It seems to me that players are either ignoring the IC reality of the Houses, or that the Houses are not longer concerned about monopolies, and that seems a bit unlikely.

You'll note that I stated that this should happen in the current situation, given that nothing changes. Obviously, I would hope things change. But that sort of has to start at the top, with Staff allowing PCs to implement new guidelines or Staff implementing them themselves.

[Gimfalisette]

Obviously it won't create goodwill. But if Merchant Houses simply will not have any perks that appeal to players, giving them a reason to play in the Merchant Houses, then what do -you- think should happen? It seems to me that players are either ignoring the IC reality of the Houses, or that the Houses are not longer concerned about monopolies, and that seems a bit unlikely.

All it takes is good leadership.

All it takes is good leadership.

All it takes is good leadership.

Look at Salarr last year. Look at any time LoD has played a GMH leader. Look at Shatuka of Kurac--yeah, she was a military leader, but she was in a GMH and I doubt she ever lacked for minions.

All it takes is good leadership. Minions of all kinds will follow.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

*chuckle*

Alright, Gimf. You tout your leadership.

I'll tout good leadership and making House Merchants and Independent Merchants more balanced in terms of appeal.

We can both win.

[Gimfalisette]

They are already balanced, IF there was good leadership in the GMHs. Good leadership, plot involvement, access to clan recipes, safety with clannies, group adventuring, access to cool clan equipment, special training opportunities...these are the logical perks of GMH membership. The problem is that accessing these perks requires good leadership first--a leader who can advocate, organize, and reward.

There's no other balancing needed. The playerbase recognizes that the perks are inaccessible because good leadership is not in play. Therefore PCs don't join the GMHs.

Personally, I abhor the idea of rewarding poor leadership in the GMHs with extra muscle to force PCs to join.

[Medena]

I think the arguments apply to most clans to be honest.  I feel like I'm making huge sacrifices by joining a clan... that's not right.

I don't feel that way.

My top ten reasons for playing in a clan:

• BECAUSE THEY'RE FUN!

• Clans give you a pool of PC's to regularly RP with. Often these are people who you might not get to interact one on one with otherwise.  And whether they are awesome veterans who just make the world come alive or newbies who you get the fun of helping interact with the world, your own RP and enjoyment of the game is enriched tenfold.

• Clans have RPT's.

• BECAUSE THEY'RE FUN!

• I like the hierarchy. Sometimes I like being a boss.  Sometimes I like just being a peon who gets bossed around.  Sometimes I'm ambitious and try to work up through the ranks.

• I like the prestige.  If my PC believes herself that there is prestige in it, then dammit, there is.

• BECAUSE THEY'RE FUN!

• Apparently, I really suck at this game and have never discovered the secret of making 10K a week.

• Each new clan you go into gives you a whole different mindset and perspective on the gameworld, formed not only from its collective set-in-stone mission statement but also from the dynamics of its current membership.

• Because they're fun.
  
  
  

[/list]

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Alright, Gimf. I agree with you completely. I'll put aside my perspective on the matter.

[musashi]

While I do appreciate the brain storming 7DV, I have to agree with Gimf that from an OOC perspective, as a player who's trying to enjoy the game, getting beat up by GHM's, forced to join or die, and then being bored with how dull life has become under the house clan that you're just sitting there next to another guy going: You with Kaidus too? Yeah me too ... man ... this sucks ... -- is probably not the best way to breath life back into the GMH's.

I do agree that those kinds of things should be the GMH's MO, but I think it might be better if they reared that ugly head a little away from the players ... not completely, but a bit ... and just expressed it in other ways. Like, for example, a leader within a GMH assigning an underling or two to making sure  Indie NPC merchant X is losing customers and being out-marketed. That should soften him up for when the Agents stop by to give him "the offer".

[FantasyWriter]

Just knock the competition off... class assassin PCs need work just as much as crafters.

You better believe if I was a Sallari Family member and all kinds of rare armor started showing up in town, I would be pissed...


Combat classes are suppose to be scared to hunt/fight alone. (that's why we have the Byn and GMH hunting parties)
Make merchants scared to craft alone.

[fourTwenty]

I think the arguments apply to most clans to be honest.  I feel like I'm making huge sacrifices by joining a clan... that's not right.

I don't feel that way.

My top ten reasons for playing in a clan:

• BECAUSE THEY'RE FUN!

• Clans give you a pool of PC's to regularly RP with. Often these are people who you might not get to interact one on one with otherwise.  And whether they are awesome veterans who just make the world come alive or newbies who you get the fun of helping interact with the world, your own RP and enjoyment of the game is enriched tenfold.

• Clans have RPT's.

• BECAUSE THEY'RE FUN!

• I like the hierarchy. Sometimes I like being a boss.  Sometimes I like just being a peon who gets bossed around.  Sometimes I'm ambitious and try to work up through the ranks.

• I like the prestige.  If my PC believes herself that there is prestige in it, then dammit, there is.

• BECAUSE THEY'RE FUN!

• Apparently, I really suck at this game and have never discovered the secret of making 10K a week.

• Each new clan you go into gives you a whole different mindset and perspective on the gameworld, formed not only from its collective set-in-stone mission statement but also from the dynamics of its current membership.

• Because they're fun.
  
  
  

[/list]

Which are why you as a player would enjoy the GMH. None of which, however, are IC reasons for joining. I look at it that while -I- the player would love to join the House because it would be more fun my PC doesn't give a rats ass about fun, they're thinking "What's the best for me"

And for 7DV idea, just because you may not like it doesn't make it any less true. I already know of one GMH that deals in a specific item that if anybody else begins to deal to much in that item they will be spoken to. The rest of the GMH's need to step up. Though, I think (not to take your idea out of context 7DV) it only would happen if you were big timing it. If you make 10000 'sid in one RL week selling jewelry then yeah, I'd imagine Kadius should get pretty pissed.

[Vanth]

All it takes is good leadership.

GMH's ( i.e. family members) should be targeting anyone who is indy in the 2 main cities, and actively threatening GMH supremacy (making social contacts as well as nearing/at master crafter status). Ideally (from the GMH sperspective), no-one should have the social status combined with wealth, to establish a Lesser Merchant House.

If you (the indy crafter) really just wanna spamcraft 24/7 and not play the social game, we don't care much if you make 20k.  If you want to use that $ for something, like buying a shop or wagon, you need the social contacts.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Oh God.

I feel vindicated.

*grin*

[Halcyon]

I wish there were better provisions in a GMH for a crafter outfitting the other employees.  As it stands, my experience is that employees cant afford to buy much, even on discount.  If, instead, GMH had some elite troops or employees that crafters could sign on to specifically support as part of their duties, it might make for some fun and goal driven groups.