Mundane vs Magick

[fourTwenty]

So, I think everyone can agree that Magick vs Mundane is not balanced in this game.

There are parts of this equation I like. Magick being uber-powerfull leads to a real fear of Magick which is something all PC's should have. The down side to this is it's not balanced out through RP because most of the people that play this game ignore that part of the documents. Fuck off, don't argue with that part of this post because its true and if you don't think so your fucking slow. I've seen the MAJORITY of the playerbase interact with Magick users as if they were a normal PC, this part is undeniable. Now, I -like- the fact that a Magick user can tell the laws of reality to sit down and shut up and have my mundane PC singing Henry the 8th in about two seconds. This however sucks as everybody is special apping magickers before the game ends and in Arm2.0 there will be just as many if not more do to the lack of karma limits.

However this is a game. And as a hardcore gamer of all types I believe in balance. Now in every other RPing game you play they try to keep races as balanced as possible. I'm under the impression that if said Magicker wants to obliterate me he had better do it from way over there, because the second I shove a spear down his throat he should be pretty fucked.

Anyway, I would like to discuss players thoughts on balance.

Ideas to make it more balanced.
Should it be balanced Why/Why not.
Anything else you can think of.


When I first read the docs for this game I was very excited. The idea of Magick being uber-powerful being balanced out by Rp'd fear an rareness sounded fucking awesome. Now I'm sad, this is not working. A large portion of this playerbase ignores the documents where they see fit. Racism, fear of Magick, etc. So, I'm thinking. Should Magick be toned back, Mundanes be beefed up, is there anyway (And this is what I'd really hope) We can make Magick RARE and still uber-powerful. Which is what the docs claim it is in the first place?

[staggerlee]

So, I think everyone can agree that Magick vs Mundane is not balanced in this game.

There are parts of this equation I like. Magick being uber-powerfull leads to a real fear of Magick which is something all PC's should have. The down side to this is it's not balanced out through RP because most of the people that play this game ignore that part of the documents. Fuck off, don't argue with that part of this post because its true and if you don't think so your fucking slow. I've seen the MAJORITY of the playerbase interact with Magick users as if they were a normal PC, this part is undeniable.

This is a flagrantly untrue and harmful assertion.
Sorry but your vehemence and obscenities don't really add any strength to the foundation of your argument.

If that simple statement that the rest of your argument lies on is false... than you don't have much to discuss.  I would however suggest turning to the archives where this has already been discussed about a bajillion times.

[fourTwenty]

Which part of this is not true?

And a matter of fact staggerlee, that kind of post is not helpful to a -discussion-. Will you please elaborate on why you think so as opposed to.  No, that's wrong so there.

[manonfire]

It's balanced.

No, really. It is.

[staggerlee]

Which part of this is not true?

- You won't get any solid insights into how balanced the classes are, or how balanced they are supposed to be on the forum.
- I was referring largely to your assertions about the roleplay of your fellow armers and the enforcement of the documentation.  The part you said not to argue with.

[fourTwenty]

- I was referring largely to your assertions about the roleplay of your fellow armers and the enforcement of the documentation.  The part you said not to argue with.

You are wrong. Plain and simple. The MAJORITY of this playerbase does NOT RP a fear, loathing, and misunderstanding of Magick. There ares some GREAT RP'rs that do, but the majority do not and that's the simple truth.

And your right, I wont get any solid insights to anything they way you keep derailing my points. I do not want to discuss whether or not fear of Magick is properly Rp'd but what other people think about balance, and how/should it be achieved.

[touringCompl3t3]

I question where the original post is going.

[Gimfalisette]

You are wrong. Plain and simple. The MAJORITY of this playerbase does NOT RP a fear, loathing, and misunderstanding of Magick. There ares some GREAT RP'rs that do, but the majority do not and that's the simple truth.

I bet 93% of the playerbase that interacted with that one character of mine last year thought she didn't show evidence of fear and loathing of magick. All of you would be wrong.

Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it's not happening.

[fourTwenty]

No Gims, but when I see the exact opposite going on for quite awhile now it makes me wonder.

I do not want to discuss whether or not fear of Magick is properly Rp'd but what other people think about balance, and how/should it be achieved.

You want to start a new post on the fear of Magick being Rp'd go ahead. I'm pretty sure we've been around that track -way- to many times.

[staggerlee]

- I was referring largely to your assertions about the roleplay of your fellow armers and the enforcement of the documentation.  The part you said not to argue with.

You are wrong. Plain and simple. The MAJORITY of this playerbase does NOT RP a fear, loathing, and misunderstanding of Magick. There ares some GREAT RP'rs that do, but the majority do not and that's the simple truth.

And your right, I wont get any solid insights to anything they way you keep derailing my points. I do not want to discuss whether or not fear of Magick is properly Rp'd but what other people think about balance, and how/should it be achieved.

I don't think questioning the base assumption of your argument is  a derail.  Especially the way you chose to phrase it.

A) If we assume that people in the game can and do roleplay and follow the documentation, than there's no need to balance the classes.
B) If we assume that people in the game can not or do not roleplay, than the classes should be perfectly balanced.

IF A than your post is moot.
If B than we may as well turn Arm into a H&S

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Remember that fear and loathing come in many different forms. It is not always a sneer at a mage's back, or her face, or getting up and taking another seat somewhere. Fear and loathing can be mental, it can be physical, it can be as simple as a belief that mages should be segregated without actually hating them, it can be as complicated as superstition and murder, it could be a belief that mages are good for nothing but pets, it could be a belief that mages are demons secretly, it could be a desire to never be in private with them, or a desire to never be in public with them. The point is, there are millions of ways to have fear and loathing for mages, or races, or anything else. You have got to stop looking for the obvious and start looking for the not-so-obvious.

If everyone thought we should get up and move away when mages came around, or that we should never involve ourselves with them in plots, and if everybody thought mages should be feared and loathed openly by everybody, mages would have nothing to do. And that's not fair to the player.

Feel free to be a player who fears and loathes mages to their face. I'll continue to play a character who has his or her own beliefs and ways of dealing with mages, and how deals with fear and loathing in his own way.

[Gimfalisette]

What staggerlee and 7DV said. Thread over.

[Fathi]

What staggerlee and 7DV said. Thread over.

Having seen members of all three Merchant Houses, the Byn, the Soh for fuck's sake, non-Oashi Allanaki nobility, and even Tuluki born and bred PCs openly embrace magick--especially on RPTs--in the last year, I have to agree with FourTwenty, even though I disagree that it's the majority of the playerbase.

Even a large minority is too many.

When I have bothered emailing the imms about my concerns regarding some magick affairs, I got an extremely helpful and rapid response from more than one staff member.

However, I am not going to file a complaint against every PC I see doing it because, let's face it, there are too many and they all have IC justifications.

I also admit that I used to be part of the problem. I thought that playing a tribal PC from a tribe that had a certain degree of acceptance for magick would lead to some interesting internal conflict in my character--instead, it usually just ended in my character being unable to idealogically disagree with people who used magick around her and expected her to be okay with it because she was a tribal.

I think the end of the game being announced caused many clans and many characters to run out and try to stockpile magickal lootz and make magickal buddies because everybody wanted to be the last man standing. We are still experiencing the side effects of that, though it has cooled down a bit.

Feel free to disagree with what I'm saying, but I'd like to point out one thing:

Saying that "you only perceive there is a problem" with magick being too embraced by mundanes isn't quite enough to discount complaints on the issue. The second I perceive Bynners allowing spells to be cast on them during a contract, it becomes a problem for me because I so strongly disagree with it. That makes it a real problem, even if it's only for a few players.

My problem is not what people say about "openly showing fear and loathing."

It's that being a character who does thinks and feels about hating magickers while being perfectly content wielding a flaming sword and having magickal armour cast on them is hypocrisy, pure and simple, for the sake of gaining an advantage against one's enemies.

And the fact that this has happened with several prominent PCs who have received no social backlash for doing it over the last two years or so... that points to the fact that there IS a problem.

Keep your quiet, internal fear and loathing--that's perfectly fine and an awesome way to RP conflict with mages. But if you try to tell me you are doing your part to enforce your docs when your magick-hating clan is palling around with the flying flaming warbeetle gang and not expressing distaste when they use their magicks on your character... then you are part of the problem.

Edit: To clarify, this was not a dig at Gimf or her PC. I am using the general 'you' here. There are many ways to RP hating magick, but RPing hating magick and then turning around and being content with reaping magick's benefits when they are offered to your PC--especially if you are in a clan where your magickal hatred is supposed to take precedence over everything else--then you are a fraud and you are trying to justify OOC behaviour.

[a strange shadow]

Magick being a powerful, deadly, yet relatively specific tool, is good.

Magick being so useful, versatile and able to be used to accomplish almost anything a mundane would or could faster and better, is bad.

Magick being the preferred way to accomplish goals and being involved so frequently in plots, since it's easier, is bad.

The fact that those who hold to the documentation and/or their biases against magick/supernatural are being put at such a grave disadvantage in comparison to those who don't, at least from playability standpoints, is bad. Realistically, someone could employ a veritable army of mundane spies to achieve the same effect one man with one <insert karma guild here> could, but that depends entirely on availability of PCs, and even an army of mundane spies will never be as effective as <insert karma guild here> at the task.

For example, a group of various mundane guilds getting together and sent on a mission to explore a dangerous place, possibly making it out alive, and possibly not. You have your fighting types for possible threats, your rangers, etc, for getting there, your thief guilds for those locked doors in that mysterious old ruin. It becomes an event, a story, an interactive challenge to overcome together.

Or Joe Oash could send <insert karma guild here> and check out the whole damn place in a day.

Which one sounds more fun?

Thread not fucking over. Thread has a point, and Shadow has been harping on it for probably a year.

- kthx, shadow out

[fourTwenty]

- I was referring largely to your assertions about the roleplay of your fellow armers and the enforcement of the documentation.  The part you said not to argue with.

You are wrong. Plain and simple. The MAJORITY of this playerbase does NOT RP a fear, loathing, and misunderstanding of Magick. There ares some GREAT RP'rs that do, but the majority do not and that's the simple truth.

And your right, I wont get any solid insights to anything they way you keep derailing my points. I do not want to discuss whether or not fear of Magick is properly Rp'd but what other people think about balance, and how/should it be achieved.

I don't think questioning the base assumption of your argument is  a derail.  Especially the way you chose to phrase it.

A) If we assume that people in the game can and do roleplay and follow the documentation, than there's no need to balance the classes.
B) If we assume that people in the game can not or do not roleplay, than the classes should be perfectly balanced.

IF A than your post is moot.
If B than we may as well turn Arm into a H&S

This makes no sense.

If A) then I'd be happy. I personally would rather see Magick more powerful than mundane but Rp'd properly. However, the MAJORITY of people don't RP a fear and loathing of Magick. Arguing with it doesn't change the truth of the matter. I can't give examples because it's considered IC info but go fucking sit in the Gaj for a few hours and then come back and tell me how Magick is Rp'd. I've seen absolute strangers pass water gourds to Magickers they just met for a free fill-up. Yeah, that sounds like fear and loathing to me.

And B) would make it further removed from a H&S because it keeps people from powergaming by choosing a certain Race/Guild supercombo.

Again, you have not stated whether you think it needs to be balance? Or how it could be achieved? Instead you argue with wheter or not Fear of Magick is properly Rp'd which it's not. I was trying to avoid this derail because I do not want to argue about something that is easily observable IG.

[staggerlee]

- I was referring largely to your assertions about the roleplay of your fellow armers and the enforcement of the documentation.  The part you said not to argue with.

You are wrong. Plain and simple. The MAJORITY of this playerbase does NOT RP a fear, loathing, and misunderstanding of Magick. There ares some GREAT RP'rs that do, but the majority do not and that's the simple truth.

And your right, I wont get any solid insights to anything they way you keep derailing my points. I do not want to discuss whether or not fear of Magick is properly Rp'd but what other people think about balance, and how/should it be achieved.

I don't think questioning the base assumption of your argument is  a derail.  Especially the way you chose to phrase it.

A) If we assume that people in the game can and do roleplay and follow the documentation, than there's no need to balance the classes.
B) If we assume that people in the game can not or do not roleplay, than the classes should be perfectly balanced.

IF A than your post is moot.
If B than we may as well turn Arm into a H&S

This makes no sense.

If A) then I'd be happy. I personally would rather see Magick more powerful than mundane but Rp'd properly. However, the MAJORITY of people don't RP a fear and loathing of Magick. Arguing with it doesn't change the truth of the matter. I can't give examples because it's considered IC info but go fucking sit in the Gaj for a few hours and then come back and tell me how Magick is Rp'd. I've seen absolute strangers pass water gourds to Magickers they just met for a free fill-up. Yeah, that sounds like fear and loathing to me.

And B) would make it further removed from a H&S because it keeps people from powergaming by choosing a certain Race/Guild supercombo.

Again, you have not stated whether you think it needs to be balance? Or how it could be achieved? Instead you argue with wheter or not Fear of Magick is properly Rp'd which it's not. I was trying to avoid this derail because I do not want to argue about something that is easily observable IG.

My point is that the game can not be coded with the assumption that people will ignore the documentation.  If we're going to throw out the documentation and balance the game for PvP I'm going to go play a real PvP game, with graphics.

Fathi has an excellent  point, but it's unrelated to the question at hand - which is should magick be balanced.   
Bitching about people's rp is all well and good, but somewhat beside the point.

Edit: Because I re-read Shadow's post.

[Nyr]

The good news is that I wrote this response already.

...
If you'd like to relive years-old debates/discussions about magickers, you can go
here,
here,
here,
here,
here,
here,
here,
here,
here,
and here.  (There are more, but I got tired of copying the links into a nonspammy format.)

Players bring this up about once every few months, as you may notice from the links I listed the last time this was brought up. 
I didn't think we were due for another round of "kick the magicker" so soon, though.  At last check, the last spurt of "discussion" happened a month ago.
There was the player-initiated karma-off which resulted in some cessation of who had karma roles, but people still special-apped and some others eventually requested their karma back.
I can't speak for other staff members, but what dakurus said rings true--and it's even been said before by staff members.  People still bring this up, usually with nothing new to bring to the table.  If there is anything new in these discussions it gets trampled by the same old stuff.  I don't even feel compelled to read threads dealing with complaints about magickers anymore. 

I believe it's also worth reading this by Dakurus, referenced above.

The actual number of magickers in the "who" list, or online at any moment is far from directly proportional to the perception of how many magickers are about in the game. It might be 10% or 40%, but it's more about their playtime, where they visit, and what they do. It doesn't take but one or two going to a particular oasis who play most nights to make a significant impression. The same could be said for one or two going to a particular bar. But then there's that one or two that sit in a cave or apartment or temple, which is very low impact with regards to perception. The impact is also proportional to the area in which players limit themselves. One or two magickers playing regularly in the rinth, would dramaticly affect perception for rinthis, while one or two who wandered far and wide in the waste might have less of an impression. Some magickers can travel rapidly from place to place but it's not unlikely that they'll visit similar places to mundanes, be it for water, food, goods, interaction, or otherwise. There are bound to be interactions on the few roads, few bars, few wateringholes, few resource gathering spots, and so on. The interaction between two magickers meeting at these spots, two mundanes, or a mix, is very different in every case, and even made more different based on culture. The frequency, material covered, and resolution of these occurances (sometimes decided by one player, sometimes both) also has a heavy affect on perception.

That said, it is the responsibility of players to adhere to the documentation.
It is not the responsibility of players to deal with complaints about players if someone is not adhering to the documentation.
If you notice someone not adhering to the documentation and it cannot be dealt with in-character, then:
Player request > player complaint > I think this guy/gal is not following the documentation and here's why (add logs/evidence/opinions) > submit

[a strange shadow]

My post is not off topic at all, staggerlee.

My post illustrates why mundanes should be better balanced against magickers.

This whole "well people just aren't RPing good enough" is what strikes me as more tangential.

(I'm not sure why I even bother to post on threads like these. It just pisses me off and we get snarky "it's been said" responses. If it's been said so often, why hasn't anything been done about it? The vast majority of code changes I see end up benefitting mages more than mundanes.)

[Fathi]

- I was referring largely to your assertions about the roleplay of your fellow armers and the enforcement of the documentation.  The part you said not to argue with.

You are wrong. Plain and simple. The MAJORITY of this playerbase does NOT RP a fear, loathing, and misunderstanding of Magick. There ares some GREAT RP'rs that do, but the majority do not and that's the simple truth.

And your right, I wont get any solid insights to anything they way you keep derailing my points. I do not want to discuss whether or not fear of Magick is properly Rp'd but what other people think about balance, and how/should it be achieved.

I don't think questioning the base assumption of your argument is  a derail.  Especially the way you chose to phrase it.

A) If we assume that people in the game can and do roleplay and follow the documentation, than there's no need to balance the classes.
B) If we assume that people in the game can not or do not roleplay, than the classes should be perfectly balanced.

IF A than your post is moot.
If B than we may as well turn Arm into a H&S

This makes no sense.

If A) then I'd be happy. I personally would rather see Magick more powerful than mundane but Rp'd properly. However, the MAJORITY of people don't RP a fear and loathing of Magick. Arguing with it doesn't change the truth of the matter. I can't give examples because it's considered IC info but go fucking sit in the Gaj for a few hours and then come back and tell me how Magick is Rp'd. I've seen absolute strangers pass water gourds to Magickers they just met for a free fill-up. Yeah, that sounds like fear and loathing to me.

And B) would make it further removed from a H&S because it keeps people from powergaming by choosing a certain Race/Guild supercombo.

Again, you have not stated whether you think it needs to be balance? Or how it could be achieved? Instead you argue with wheter or not Fear of Magick is properly Rp'd which it's not. I was trying to avoid this derail because I do not want to argue about something that is easily observable IG.

My point is that the game can not be coded with the assumption that people will ignore the documentation.  If we're going to throw out the documentation and balance the game for PvP I'm going to go play a real PvP game, with graphics.

Fathi and Shadow both have excellent points, but they're unrelated to the question at hand - which is should magick be balanced.   
Bitching about people's rp is all well and good, but somewhat beside the point.

Actually, the point I was trying to make is that if the documentation were enforced more strictly, there wouldn't be a need to even consider "balancing" mages and mundanes.

Part of the "balance" to magick-wielding classes is supposed to be the roleplayed social consequences of being a magicker or associated with one.

If we are discussing the issue of balance, I think this point is just as important as actual balancing of code, because that social pressure is a large part of the staff's attempt to balance the game in that regard.

[staggerlee]

My post is not off topic at all, staggerlee.

My post illustrates why mundanes should be better balanced against magickers.

This whole "well people just aren't RPing good enough" is what strikes me as more tangential.

Sorry you got in before my edit.  I see what you're saying.

[Gimfalisette]

Magick being a powerful, deadly, yet relatively specific tool, is good.

Magick being so useful, versatile and able to be used to accomplish almost anything a mundane would or could faster and better, is bad.

Magick being the preferred way to accomplish goals and being involved so frequently in plots, since it's easier, is bad.

None of those can be changed in the current game, except by talking about RP and leadership, which 420 claims wasn't the point of his thread. He's apparently interested in combat balance, which won't achieve what you want...even if it was to be worked toward, which it won't be.

It's not even the roleplay of fear and loathing which is the real issue, at that point. It's the willingness of apped leadership to do things the hard way, instead of the easy way.

[a strange shadow]

As long as code continues to so drastically favor magickers in almost any situation, that will never happen.

It IS possible to better balance mages, and I've got plenty of ideas that can't be posted here.

Re-read my post please. This thread exploded too fast for my edit and further explanation.

[Tisiphone]

I do not want to discuss whether or not fear of Magick is properly Rp'd but what other people think about balance, and how/should it be achieved.

Welcome to the GDB, where the discussion goes where 'twill.

[fourTwenty]

Actually, if you read my post, I like the fact that a Mage will wipe the floor with a Mundane. This should, according to the docs which nobody has suggested be thrown out, be balanced by an RP'd fear and loathing. I was simply stating that if in fact Magick could not be kept RARE, which directly affects the levels of fear and loathing, then yes. There should be some sort of combat balance. I had a 30day warrior that died in all of 4 seconds to a mage. AND I LOVED IT. Because it was well played out and in cohesion with the Docs. That was over a year ago and ever since then what was already a shaky base of fear and loathing has taken a nosedive.

Maybe Fathi said it much better than I did but I have seen PC's bitching about Magickers and then getting Magickers to fill cisterns and such for them, calming a fear of Magick and then "Look, I have a fireball shooting stick I found!", or my personal favorite. Oh no, this person is hurt bad, do you need a healer, only if they're Magick.

[fourTwenty]

It IS possible to better balance mages, and I've got plenty of ideas that can't be posted here.

KICK ASS! Sucks that they can't be posted publicly but at least he has ideas! I wish it could be balanced purely by RP but I just don't see that happening.