Mundane vs Magick

[Mood]

More people would roleplay out the fear and hatred that should be associated with magickal dealings if there were some reinforcement other than the docs. The docs aren't enough, obviously; harping on people on the GDB to play faithfully to them hasn't done much yet, so why do you think it's going to do something more?

A much more effective way to deal with the problem comes from the immortals and, perhaps to a lesser extent, clan leaders. Kick asses, enforce cultural taboos, and be general bigoted pricks (ICly), and I think you'll see more of it from the playerbase as a whole. A sneer from an NPC at the Gaj can go a long way.

[Fathi]

I apologise for barging in and posting all that despite FourTwenty's request. It was a little hasty of me.

However, I stand by my point that the balance in roleplay is just as important as the balance in code.

If magickers were highly ostracized and people were made into pariahs for hiring them, mundanes and their players would feel significantly less threatened about magickers being picked over them for jobs or magickers being favoured to complete tasks.

[NoteworthyFellow]

Here's what I think should happen.

• Magick should stay extremely powerful, both in this game and the next.  "Balance" in the coded sense will only serve to make magick more commonplace and, frankly, more boring.
• Magick should be extremely powerful in more subtle, less predictable ways.
• Magick should be just a little more rare than it currently is.  Part of this can be solved through the RP of both magicker and mundane players.  If you ask me, a plot that features magick should be something special, and is not necessarily bad.
• Magick should remain extremely useful, even for things that mundanes should do.  However, there should be consequences to working with a mage.  Perhaps a magick weapon takes, say, one point of mana per swing; if you have no mana, it draws from your hit points or perhaps stamina instead, and at a higher rate, thus discouraging mundanes from seeking out powerful magick weapons.  Things like that, I think, will help to discourage mundanes from being too casual about the use of magick--I can still see a reason to hire a mage to do something, but I don't think it should be done casually and there should always be that layer of distrust.

Coded balance is by far not the best solution.  Yes, I understand that losing a long-lived mundane character to a magicker simply because you had no counter to said magicker sucks, but if we can make sure that the sort of player who randomly PKs for little to no reason is not the sort of player who gets to play a mage, then you can make sure that you don't put your character in the position that a mage has to kill you.

Yes, I know, I'm an idealist, but I'd hate to see magick become commonplace and weak in the name of "balance."  I realize that's not what the OP was talking about, but I keep seeing it brought up.

More people would roleplay out the fear and hatred that should be associated with magickal dealings if there were some reinforcement other than the docs. The docs aren't enough, obviously; harping on people on the GDB to play faithfully to them hasn't done much yet, so why do you think it's going to do something more?

A much more effective way to deal with the problem comes from the immortals and, perhaps to a lesser extent, clan leaders. Kick asses, enforce cultural taboos, and be general bigoted pricks (ICly), and I think you'll see more of it from the playerbase as a whole. A sneer from an NPC at the Gaj can go a long way.

For now, however, let's go with this.

[staggerlee]

I apologise for barging in and posting all that despite FourTwenty's request. It was a little hasty of me.

However, I stand by my point that the balance in roleplay is just as important as the balance in code.

If magickers were highly ostracized and people were made into pariahs for hiring them, mundanes and their players would feel significantly less threatened about magickers being picked over them for jobs or magickers being favoured to complete tasks.

I'd say that balance in roleplay is far, far, far more important than balance in code.  Which has been my point all along.

Shadow is right that specializing magickers for particular tasks would make it harder to compete with mundanes, but what it comes down to is that if people aren't following the docs, what's the point?  

The entire base assumption of this thread is inherently negative.  

I agree with Mood. And Shadow. And  Fathi.

[fourTwenty]

I apologise for barging in and posting all that despite FourTwenty's request. It was a little hasty of me.

Screw it.
Apparently only one person has any coded ideas for balance, but I like Moods post. If RP is the root of the problem how can we help influence the playerbase to remain a bit truer than the docs? Other than running to tattle to the Staff, which is just not my style.

[fourTwenty]

NF, those are some great points and ideas.

Staggerlee, my point remains unchanged. This has been harped on for a long time now and it has not affected noticeable RP by one iota. If it can' be balanced by RP then I feel we would need to implement some of NF's ideas or others, to codedly balance the lack of RP.

[Fathi]

I apologise for barging in and posting all that despite FourTwenty's request. It was a little hasty of me.

Screw it.
Apparently only one person has any coded ideas for balance, but I like Moods post. If RP is the root of the problem how can we help influence the playerbase to remain a bit truer than the docs? Other than running to tattle to the Staff, which is just not my style.

I think what it boils down to--and not to knock on your original idea, it was made with good intentions--is that a lot of people don't really have issues with the hard-boiled code of magick and magickers.

Most of the 'balance' to mages comes through OOC means: karma, limits on special apps, documentation.

I think the issue at hand is being a little mis-labeled, as well. (Either of you can feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.)

People like Shadow don't want to see magickers and mundanes balanced in terms of coded power and kickassery.

They want "balance" in the sense that they want equal opportunities for roles within the gameworld, a niche where both mage and mundane can coexist in the game itself without the scales tipping too heavily in favour of one or the other.

[Clearsighted]

It seems pretty clear to me.

Yes. Various magick-related fuckery should be powerful. However, in order for something to be truly scary, it has to be rare.

When you can't leave the gates without stumbling over a rogue mage or two, or even an entire squadron of gemmed, every other week...You're going to build up certain mental callouses. Hell. Especially after you've killed one or two...I.E, "If it can bleed, it can die!"

The more common something is, the more it has to be relatively balanced. You can't expect people to treat your magicker with fear and awe, when half the PCs they meet are gemmed or ungemmed, and they got over the fear and awe hump already in that PC's existence.

Eventually, you're going to realize that there are some awesomely powerful elementalists or what have you...And react accordingly. But you're also gonna realize that most are foolish amateurs in over their heads. Just as there are foolish members of any other profession or race.

I don't think magick needs to be made more powerful just to make us more scared of the amateurs. The knowledgeable mages are already hideous. And I need ZERO documentation to treat them with fear.

[fourTwenty]

Most of the 'balance' to mages comes through OOC means: karma, limits on special apps, documentation.

This I agree with, and is also what worries me.
People already ignore the docs to a staggering degree, there has been what seems to be a flood of special apped mages (How the fuck did this guy get the karma to be a mage), and are they still planning on doing away with karma in 2.Arm?

If it -can't- be handled by OOC means, then we do need some code to balance it. Again, I -like- Magick being superpowerfull, but only if it was much rarer than what it is.

[Clearsighted]

Most of the 'balance' to mages comes through OOC means: karma, limits on special apps, documentation.

This I agree with, and is also what worries me.
People already ignore the docs to a staggering degree, there has been what seems to be a flood of special apped mages (How the fuck did this guy get the karma to be a mage), and are they still planning on doing away with karam in 2.Arm?

If it -can't- be handled by OOC means, then we do need some code to balance it. Again, I -like- Magick being superpowerfull, but only if it was much rarer than what it is.

I too am troubled by the certainty of magick being all over the place in 2.arm. Tank mages and such.

I wish they would leave the first six months of 2.arm to just mundanes and spec apped magick.

[Boggis]

Many players like to "win". Magick allows people to win far more easily as it (generally) comes without any price attached to it. If you want to balance out the use of magickers over mundanes we would need to look at introducing serious detrimental effects to characters for using magick or for even being around magick. If we had these effects magickers themselves would be far more sparing in applying their abilities to situations, saving them for when it really mattered which would perhaps force more people to use mundanes and keep magick rare. I'm not sure that there needs to be a change to the balance between magickers and mundanes - magickers do outgun mundanes as is clearly intended but mundanes do have some tricks up their sleeves if they're prepared. The imbalance that exists is that, for elementalists, there's pretty much no sacrifice to be made to become powerful magickally in a fairly short space of time and no sacrifices to be made to actually put their magickal abilities to use. It's just too easy to call on magick.

[Marauder Moe]

Instead of producing more magicker hate by hating magickers, how about producing more magicker hate by loving magickers?

Seriously!  Nothing gets people riled up quite like seeing some propper 'nakki citizen kissing a gemmer in public.

I think a few players of magickers and a few players of people friendly with magickers should take one for the team and make a little effort to have your character fall in love with someone they shouldn't.

In addition to getting the general population's blood boiling, it also makes for some great player-driven plots.

[Desertman]

Having seen members of all three Merchant Houses, the Byn, the Soh for fuck's sake, non-Oashi Allanaki nobility, and even Tuluki born and bred PCs openly embrace magick--especially on RPTs--in the last year, I have to agree with FourTwenty, even though I disagree that it's the majority of the playerbase.

Even a large minority is too many.

And the truth shall set you free.

First, I think TOO many people RP being "Ok" with magickers.

Secondly, I think TOO many people RP being "Ok" with people who are "Ok" with magickers.

(Basically, why would anyone want to ever be seen with someone who is a "Gicker Lover?", doesnt make any sense. Gicker lovers should end up dead in an alley somewhere. They are basically appearing to make deals with the devil. Even if they are "RP'ing hate on the inside." they should be stabbed in the face by an angry mob on the outside.)

I personally am not either. With any of my pc's. I play the exception. The person who actually fears them like the plague. (Its sad that the exception IS the person who actually fears them like the plague)

[NoteworthyFellow]

Many players like to "win". Magick allows people to win far more easily as it (generally) comes without any price attached to it. If you want to balance out the use of magickers over mundanes we would need to look at introducing serious detrimental effects to characters for using magick or for even being around magick. If we had these effects magickers themselves would be far more sparing in applying their abilities to situations, saving them for when it really mattered which would perhaps force more people to use mundanes and keep magick rare. I'm not sure that there needs to be a change to the balance between magickers and mundanes - magickers do outgun mundanes as is clearly intended but mundanes do have some tricks up their sleeves if they're prepared. The imbalance that exists is that, for elementalists, there's pretty much no sacrifice to be made to become powerful magickally in a fairly short space of time and no sacrifices to be made to actually put their magickal abilities to use. It's just too easy to call on magick.

I'd be in favor of seeing some sort of "other cost" for using magick, so long as it's extremely creative and happens slowly at first, then increases in the long term.  Perhaps one's element will eventually mark them physically as they get closer to it (through mastering their powers), thus marking someone without a doubt as magickal.  This would mean that rogue magickers would have to find some way of covering up the mark (which could be things such as the skin on a certain part of their body taking on a permanent stony appearance and feel for a Rukkian or a glowing orange rune of Suk-Krath slowly appearing on a Krathi's chest).

Perhaps make magick addictive like spice, as well.  If you get magicked on in a positive way enough, you start to develop a coded addiction to it.  Let's say you're a warrior and you're accustomed to working with a mage who can increase your strength.  Eventually, you become dependent on it, and your base strength drops (as a sort of withdrawal system) when you don't get a dose of the magick often enough.  Eventually, you can break the addiction, but magick withdrawal is just as nasty (or perhaps even nastier) than spice withdrawal.  Even magickers can become addicted to magick--of course, it's easier for them to get their fix if they can do it themselves.  (EDIT: Upon thinking about this, I really like this idea and may suggest it for 2.Arm.)

[staggerlee]

This is one of those threads where we all make wild accusations and claim to be the only person acting according to the documentation...  there's obviously some bad data floating around if that many people are playing by the docs and still perceiving a problem.

The good news is that I wrote this response already.

...
If you'd like to relive years-old debates/discussions about magickers, you can go
here,
here,
here,
here,
here,
here,
here,
here,
here,
and here.  (There are more, but I got tired of copying the links into a nonspammy format.)

Players bring this up about once every few months, as you may notice from the links I listed the last time this was brought up. 
I didn't think we were due for another round of "kick the magicker" so soon, though.  At last check, the last spurt of "discussion" happened a month ago.
There was the player-initiated karma-off which resulted in some cessation of who had karma roles, but people still special-apped and some others eventually requested their karma back.
I can't speak for other staff members, but what dakurus said rings true--and it's even been said before by staff members.  People still bring this up, usually with nothing new to bring to the table.  If there is anything new in these discussions it gets trampled by the same old stuff.  I don't even feel compelled to read threads dealing with complaints about magickers anymore. 

I believe it's also worth reading this by Dakurus, referenced above.

The actual number of magickers in the "who" list, or online at any moment is far from directly proportional to the perception of how many magickers are about in the game. It might be 10% or 40%, but it's more about their playtime, where they visit, and what they do. It doesn't take but one or two going to a particular oasis who play most nights to make a significant impression. The same could be said for one or two going to a particular bar. But then there's that one or two that sit in a cave or apartment or temple, which is very low impact with regards to perception. The impact is also proportional to the area in which players limit themselves. One or two magickers playing regularly in the rinth, would dramaticly affect perception for rinthis, while one or two who wandered far and wide in the waste might have less of an impression. Some magickers can travel rapidly from place to place but it's not unlikely that they'll visit similar places to mundanes, be it for water, food, goods, interaction, or otherwise. There are bound to be interactions on the few roads, few bars, few wateringholes, few resource gathering spots, and so on. The interaction between two magickers meeting at these spots, two mundanes, or a mix, is very different in every case, and even made more different based on culture. The frequency, material covered, and resolution of these occurances (sometimes decided by one player, sometimes both) also has a heavy affect on perception.

That said, it is the responsibility of players to adhere to the documentation.
It is not the responsibility of players to deal with complaints about players if someone is not adhering to the documentation.
If you notice someone not adhering to the documentation and it cannot be dealt with in-character, then:
Player request > player complaint > I think this guy/gal is not following the documentation and here's why (add logs/evidence/opinions) > submit

[Sephiroto]

Mundane v. Magicker wouldn't be such a big issue if the playerbase was balanced the way it was 5 or 6 years ago.  

I can't say for sure whether or not karma is easier to get now adays, but this whole special app thing was irking me until about 6 months ago.

Magickers should be powerful.  They bend the elements.  Mundanes in mass v. magickers solves a lot of problem.

With less mundane characters due to there being more magickers, it's now mundanes in lesser mass v. magickers in small masses.  This is a little dangerous.

I liked the days of "Oh shit it's a magicker!"  These days are more akin to "Oh, another magicker..."

[Desertman]

Oh come on, "Magicker Hating" threads are the grease that keep the GDB Machine producing. Dont ruin the fun.

[Desertman]

Mundane v. Magicker wouldn't be such a big issue if the playerbase was balanced the way it was 5 or 6 years ago.  

I can't say for sure whether or not karma is easier to get now adays, but this whole special app thing was irking me until about 6 months ago.

Magickers should be powerful.  They bend the elements.  Mundanes in mass v. magickers solves a lot of problem.

With less mundane characters due to there being more magickers, it's now mundanes in lesser mass v. magickers in small masses.  This is a little dangerous.

I liked the days of "Oh shit it's a magicker!"  These days are more akin to "Oh, another magicker..."

Praise the Lord!!!

(That means I agree, ten fold.)

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I'll be honest. If magickers are suddenly supposed to be shunned and never included in any mundane plot because they are shunned and feared, then mages shouldn't even be a common app. As far as I am concerned, OCCly, there is a place you can go if you hate magick so bad that you can not stand the sight of people using it. That's Tuluk. In Allanak, it bugs the fucking shit out of me that after Ages upon Ages of mages living right in their midst, you are still supposed to have a fear and loathing of mages to the point that you can't interact with them without somebody wailing that you are out of character. It doesn't make the slightest bit of sense, and to be honest, if we played strictly by the documents as interpreted by mage-haters, it would make playing a mage fucking boring.

I don't agree with a single thing in this thread 100 percent. If you use a mage's tool, what the hell is so bad about that? White people used black inventions for years, and still hated black people. Yet in less than 50 RL years, black people have gone from not being able to vote to having a black man running for and likely to win the Presidency. You can scream that the Real World is more progressive, but it's illogical that what occured in 50 years can't occur in hundreds of years.

But maybe I am 'bringing too much RL IG' or whatever that argument is. I can't claim that I am right, and I can't claim that I know the answer, because I don't. It just seems to me that Allanak would be a different place than Tuluk, drastically.

However, I do say, 'Play by the Docs', because staff asks us to, and frankly, that is all that matters. Therefore, I am examining my own RP in light of this thread, and I will adjust accordingly, or not at all, based on what I gather.

[NoteworthyFellow]

I'll be honest. If magickers are suddenly supposed to be shunned and never included in any mundane plot because they are shunned and feared, then mages shouldn't even be a common app. As far as I am concerned, OCCly, there is a place you can go if you hate magick so bad that you can not stand the sight of people using it. That's Tuluk. In Allanak, it bugs the fucking shit out of me that after Ages upon Ages of mages living right in their midst, you are still supposed to have a fear and loathing of mages to the point that you can't interact with them without somebody wailing that you are out of character. It doesn't make the slightest bit of sense, and to be honest, if we played strictly by the documents as interpreted by mage-haters, it would make playing a mage fucking boring.

I don't agree with a single thing in this thread 100 percent. If you use a mage's tool, what the hell is so bad about that? White people used black inventions for years, and still hated black people. Yet in less than 50 RL years, black people have gone from not being able to vote to having a black man running for and likely to win the Presidency. You can scream that the Real World is more progressive, but it's illogical that what occured in 50 years can't occur in hundreds of years.

But maybe I am 'bringing too much RL IG' or whatever that argument is. I can't claim that I am right, and I can't claim that I know the answer, because I don't. It just seems to me that Allanak would be a different place than Tuluk, drastically.

However, I do say, 'Play by the Docs', because staff asks us to, and frankly, that is all that matters. Therefore, I am examining my own RP in light of this thread, and I will adjust accordingly, or not at all, based on what I gather.

I honestly agree with you entirely.  My own suggestions were to decrease the frequency of magickers being used in mundane plots, but still allow for it.  Sometimes the magick isn't needed enough that it's worth risking the side-effects, addiction, what-have-you, but sometimes, it is.  Magick should be powerful enough to warrant its use in some mundane plots, but risky enough to make it worth it not to use it every time.

[Sephiroto]

I agree with what 7DV is saying about magickers in Allanaki society.  Nobles use them.  Templars use them.  They have their own quarter.  Shouldn't they be more openly accepted in Allanak?

That still doesn't change the way I regard magickers in the game overall or in other city-states/outposts/tribal camps.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

My own suggestions were to decrease the frequency of magickers being used in mundane plots, but still allow for it.

I could agree with this, except for one thing. In a great many situations cast upon us by staff, if you don't use them, you seem to be setting yourself up to die. If a leader has any brains at all, fear and loathing will be out-weighed by a need to live and more importantly, win. Furthermore, this STILL hurts mage-players' enjoyment, because it cuts them out of the a great portion of plots. Suddenly, mundane players get all the fun and we have mages wailing about that.

Sometimes the magick isn't needed enough that it's worth risking the side-effects, addiction, what-have-you, but sometimes, it is.

I'd give you this as well, but we know the reality of that. ICly, some of us know the IC reality of that. It doesn't make sense, in 1.0.

Magick should be powerful enough to warrant its use in some mundane plots, but risky enough to make it worth it not to use it every time.

If it were actually risky BEYOND a mistype or typo during a spell, which doesn't seem to happen that much, I could get behind this as well. But there is a reality that anybody with an eye open can see. A good mage is a good mage. ICly, you can RP fear and disgust all you want, but when a magicker of some sort saves your life, does their best to die for you, or other such things, I simply do not understand why it would make sense ICly for smart people to continue to hate and shun them.

There are good mages who would die for the Highlord, and there are bad mages. ICly, we know who to fear and who not to. Spitting on and discarding all that is good about the mages your Highlord sanctions because in 500 years you have never gotten around to understanding that the Highlord is wise is a little cheese. But maybe that's because magick is too powerful. It's not like elves, where you can get a human to do the same job only better.

Good things don't get tossed aside forever in real life, and I don't know why it would IG. Superstition only carries you so far, before you realize that it is just not realistic anymore, particularly in such a diverse and 'civilized' enviroment such as Allanak.

In 2.0, I would dearly love to see a far more serious definition of mages, where you actually understand that mages are bad for your health, if that is the way staff wants to go. You want rare magick? Make a mage limited in friendly territory, and make it hard to level, or at least equal to the other classes.

[fourTwenty]

Having seen members of all three Merchant Houses, the Byn, the Soh for fuck's sake, non-Oashi Allanaki nobility, and even Tuluki born and bred PCs openly embrace magick--especially on RPTs--in the last year, I have to agree with FourTwenty, even though I disagree that it's the majority of the playerbase.

Even a large minority is too many.

And the truth shall set you free.

First, I think TOO many people RP being "Ok" with magickers.

Secondly, I think TOO many people RP being "Ok" with people who are "Ok" with magickers.

(Basically, why would anyone want to ever be seen with someone who is a "Gicker Lover?", doesnt make any sense. Gicker lovers should end up dead in an alley somewhere. They are basically appearing to make deals with the devil. Even if they are "RP'ing hate on the inside." they should be stabbed in the face by an angry mob on the outside.)

I personally am not either. With any of my pc's. I play the exception. The person who actually fears them like the plague. (Its sad that the exception IS the person who actually fears them like the plague)

Every single bit of this, yes sir.

I'd be in favor of seeing some sort of "other cost" for using magick, so long as it's extremely creative and happens slowly at first, then increases in the long term.  Perhaps one's element will eventually mark them physically as they get closer to it (through mastering their powers), thus marking someone without a doubt as magickal.  This would mean that rogue magickers would have to find some way of covering up the mark (which could be things such as the skin on a certain part of their body taking on a permanent stony appearance and feel for a Rukkian or a glowing orange rune of Suk-Krath slowly appearing on a Krathi's chest).

Perhaps make magick addictive like spice, as well.  If you get magicked on in a positive way enough, you start to develop a coded addiction to it.  Let's say you're a warrior and you're accustomed to working with a mage who can increase your strength.  Eventually, you become dependent on it, and your base strength drops (as a sort of withdrawal system) when you don't get a dose of the magick often enough.  Eventually, you can break the addiction, but magick withdrawal is just as nasty (or perhaps even nastier) than spice withdrawal.  Even magickers can become addicted to magick--of course, it's easier for them to get their fix if they can do it themselves.  (EDIT: Upon thinking about this, I really like this idea and may suggest it for 2.Arm.)

I really like this. And also there was a previously mentioned idea about having a spell backfire and fuck people up every now and then that I liked.

I liked the days of "Oh shit it's a magicker!"  These days are more akin to "Oh, another magicker..."

This is so true, it makes me sad.


On Magick in 'Nak.
I always thought that 'gickers ins 'Nak should be way more openly despised. They're marked, they're like a fucking leper. Don't make friends with the weird little freak, get away before it eats your babies. Templar Magick is different, it's provided by the Highlord and should inspire awe.


I'll be damned. This thread totally devolved into a discussion on Magick balance and ideas to help work with it.
I'm so happy

[Hot_Dancer]

I can't think of a time when the Soh have embraced magick in any sort of recent history. Embrace
is a strong and quite misleading word.

As far as I am aware of, any Soh who has ever been put a situation of openly tolerate or cooperate was
full of heavy internal turmoil and confusion. There is also the concept of plain fear of reprisal against themselves
or their tribe should they decide to act out against a known witch.

Often times, a small (or even large) tribe in the Tablelands will have little to no defense versus
one wiggler on his/her period.

[WarriorPoet]

I would simply like to see the incredible power that magickers wield balanced against more serious setbacks.

I think of Dragonlance and Raistlin. His power was IMMENSE, but the price was terribly heavy.